RAF Meltdown - Has it begun?
In the meantime I should exchange your babel fish as being obviously defective, that is of course if there are any left!
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Get out while the going's good
I drifted into this forum whilst waiting for a delayed flight and being fed up with the children in my home forum (Freight Dogs).
I left Aunty Mary's sanctuary many years ago for all the reasons I have read on this and other threads within the forum. I find it unbelievable that I and my colleagues who jumped ship did nothing to wake up the government of the day and their successors that there was nothing seriously wrong with the armed forces. I can only imagine the sand has got deeper or their necks have got longer. Having experienced the lack of spares, poor equipment, etc., I fully believe all of your grievances and , say as many have posted, you have to vote with your feet. Perhaps in my day, there were too many of us and early releases were a way to save money in the long run. But, as I read the present situation nobody in the ministry knows or cares how to look after their bread and butter (no armed forces - who needs a MoD). It appears standards are non-existent not just fallen. So much for the traditions of Cranwell and Halton, which set the precedent many foreign services wished to attain. Now the RAF is dragging along with the third world airlines. (I used that quote in my service time, but see no improvement today).
In case you are wondering why I think I can give my tuppence worth to you
currently seving guys and gals. I don't like to see people run over when they are giving up so much of their early lives, in some cases all of it, by such an ungrateful government. I will not say nation as I believe if and when the British people know how you are treated, they will appreciate your efforts. I served 20+ years between the kipper and shiny fleets. The lack of investment in the service finished it for me. When I saw a gang of men stripping a 'lightly' crashed Phantom for spares and flying VC10s on the 'war standard' due to lack of spares I knew it was time to go. Now in the civvy world of reality, I have been in and out of work - out due to companies which thought they could skip the afore mentioned investement. It works today, but next week it bites in the bum in a big way.
Whine/bitch over - do battle with secutity staff (see other forums)
Stay safe - we will carry you home if the Vicar and Uncle Gordy will open their wallets.
Keep your
I left Aunty Mary's sanctuary many years ago for all the reasons I have read on this and other threads within the forum. I find it unbelievable that I and my colleagues who jumped ship did nothing to wake up the government of the day and their successors that there was nothing seriously wrong with the armed forces. I can only imagine the sand has got deeper or their necks have got longer. Having experienced the lack of spares, poor equipment, etc., I fully believe all of your grievances and , say as many have posted, you have to vote with your feet. Perhaps in my day, there were too many of us and early releases were a way to save money in the long run. But, as I read the present situation nobody in the ministry knows or cares how to look after their bread and butter (no armed forces - who needs a MoD). It appears standards are non-existent not just fallen. So much for the traditions of Cranwell and Halton, which set the precedent many foreign services wished to attain. Now the RAF is dragging along with the third world airlines. (I used that quote in my service time, but see no improvement today).
In case you are wondering why I think I can give my tuppence worth to you
currently seving guys and gals. I don't like to see people run over when they are giving up so much of their early lives, in some cases all of it, by such an ungrateful government. I will not say nation as I believe if and when the British people know how you are treated, they will appreciate your efforts. I served 20+ years between the kipper and shiny fleets. The lack of investment in the service finished it for me. When I saw a gang of men stripping a 'lightly' crashed Phantom for spares and flying VC10s on the 'war standard' due to lack of spares I knew it was time to go. Now in the civvy world of reality, I have been in and out of work - out due to companies which thought they could skip the afore mentioned investement. It works today, but next week it bites in the bum in a big way.
Whine/bitch over - do battle with secutity staff (see other forums)
Stay safe - we will carry you home if the Vicar and Uncle Gordy will open their wallets.
Keep your
, I fully believe all of your grievances and , say as many have posted, you have to vote with your feet. Perhaps in my day, there were too many of us and early releases were a way to save money in the long run. But, as I read the present situation nobody in the ministry knows or cares how to look after their bread and butter (no armed forces - who needs a MoD).when the British people know how you are treated, they will appreciate your efforts. I served 20+ years between the kipper and shiny fleets.
So never mind the endless cuts; those, and panic rearmaments, are the inevitable boom and bust of the military cycle. The responsibility of the CoSs is to keep viable effective core Armed Services going throughout. My feeling is that they have fallen down on this, and that the present and past CGSs have tacitly said so. The CAS hasn't, and he and his predecessors need to get onto this pronto. It's bust Sirs, so fix it!
Chugalug2 has it about dead to rights. I remember a Stn Cdr at Lyneham saying to me that it was not until he became the Boss that he realised how little control over what went on on 'his ' station. This was after workmen arrived to commence building a substantial structure at Lynehamthat no one on the station knew anything about.
If any CAS rocks the boat then goodbye to lucrative directorships etc
If any CAS rocks the boat then goodbye to lucrative directorships etc
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Senior offs are no different to the rest of us - we all are caught by the short and curlies of promotion/apparent prestige/money/mortgage/family as we are all human but we do seem to be losing our grip on our consciences and selfless duty to the greater good.
Is that anything to do with our increasingly introverted, impersonal and godless society? Who knows but until we all start asking ourselves questions like:
Where am I going?
What have I achieved?
Can I look myself in the eye in the mirror?
Is the prestige/promotion worth the loss of self-esteem?
What do my family/friends think?
Is there some better way?
....then we will continue a downward spiral - led by our superiors.
Those people who hold high office must be the ones to set an example.
Is that anything to do with our increasingly introverted, impersonal and godless society? Who knows but until we all start asking ourselves questions like:
Where am I going?
What have I achieved?
Can I look myself in the eye in the mirror?
Is the prestige/promotion worth the loss of self-esteem?
What do my family/friends think?
Is there some better way?
....then we will continue a downward spiral - led by our superiors.
Those people who hold high office must be the ones to set an example.
Flipster, your very last word says it all :EXAMPLE. When we joined up, we came with all the bag and baggage of our civilian backgrounds. Little by little this was replaced with a Service ethic. Some of that came from a DI breathing literally down your neck and asking with concern if he was hurting you, but in the main it was by observing the conduct of your superiors. If you were fortunate you had examples set for you in the way compassionate and welfare situations were handled. You would note that not only was the problem itself addressed, but that note was taken by yourself and others of that care and of its positive effect on morale. Little by little you acquired a sense of what a duty of care meant, and of how you in turn should exercise it. It seems to me that this delicate but essential core of the Service Family has been neglected and allowed to whither because those who set the examples are either unwilling or unable to do so. If the former, they need to change attitude or go, if the latter, they must be re-empowered. If the Staishes etc are no longer in charge, then that must be reversed. Restore the powers of subordinate commanders and re-integrate the Chain of Command, and quickly!
I have been a lurker on various threads on the forum and decided to join in. I like to think I made a small difference as I made the decision early on in my career to follow my fathers example, it was the way I was bought up. When I left training I looked at my peers and those above me, from the examples I observed I made a decision early on of the type of person I was going to be should I get promoted. From JT to Sgt allthough took longer to get there than usual I followed my principles, in the 70's this was a good thing to do. Unfortunately as a SNCO principles were harder to maintain as the current Management team saw this as a thorn in their sides and was frowned on. Who has heard the similar comments to " if you want to further your career I would re think your current working practices", I asked said officer " do you mean if I kow tow and lick A*** I can get promoted", the answer was frequently "if you put it that way then yes", my response was " then I will stay a Sgt then". This left me 16 years in this rank seeing people who knew nothing getting on, these are the people that are now running the forces and is why it is in the position it is. I had the opportunity of speaking to Sir Michael Graydon at Coningsby and he had know idea what Ripple robbing, Sqd christmas trees, to name but a few, meant. His only response was "I have just reduced the Tornado spares budget by 1 million pounds and have not heard that there is a spares problems". When it was explained to him what was going on the Station Cmdr. got a bit miffed and set the SWO on me, still it was fun while it lasted, I still got my chiefs before I left and before my Wingco left the RAF. I got fed up of highlighting all the shortfalls both down the Falklands, Ireland and the first Gulf War, but never ever stopped looking after "my guys", but I do agree that a lot of the officers did tow the party line and did not do justice to their subordinates. As I usually say I can count on the fingers of one hand all the officers I had respect for, I can also count on the fingers of one hand all the officers who should be shot at dawn. That leaves an awful lot in the middle who were basically invisible.
ER, a very warm welcome to this thread and thanks for your memories of the mob! It is very interesting to attempt to put a timeline on this story. My experiences go up to 1973, and I just cannot relate to the contemporary picture of the RAF in this Forum. I see that in your case all was well into the 70's so it would seem that things changed for the worse in the last 25 years. If others confirm this, perhaps we can relate administrative changes to the RAF in that time to see what really did the damage. I don't think myself that officers were suddenly minded to forget their duty and just look after number one. It is my belief that many found the former less and less possible to do and the latter more of a necessity for the good of their careers. Perhaps some of them could comment? In any event if that is essentially the case it is not only unacceptable, but unsustainable as well. The RAF isn't the CS in uniform that operates aircraft. It is a fighting service that will, indeed sadly does, sustain casualties. To do that and prevail it must have an esprit de corps, which requires high morale and discipline, which in turn requires every officer and NCO to do their duty, not only to those who command them, but to those who they command. It has to get to grips with the despond that it appears to be in the grip of. The fact that it is engaged in war now only makes that need more urgent. I put my two penneth as to what should be done in earlier posts, but may be way off the mark. But as it is said "now is the time for all good men....etc"!
Hi Chugalug2
Thanks for the welcome, I do contribute to a Quality forum within Bae Systems, but this is the first time I have entered the fray of one of this stature in the big wide world. I could throw up many examples of the way the airforce has changed since the early 80s, I am also renowned for my war stories, but that as they say is another story (pun intended). I remember coming of a Management Course at Newton, my WO asked me how I found the course, I replied that it reinforced what I believe is the right way to do things, his response was, nice, good, but we do not want any of that new fangled rubbish in my airforce. I have had a lot of correspondance with the MOD/Government through the local MP re the first (or was it really the 2nd/3rd Gulf War) reference the vivid imagination that all those who suffered from undefined illnesses (and those that died from it) had. This futile effort made me realise that the MOD/Government do not care a jot about the Forces/British Public. I also realise that a lot of people have just given up, to try and do what is right is stressfull and does make you suffer all manner of ailments, I am still having this problem in civvy street (all be it I am still working within a military establishment
), I sometimes think I am to old to keep this up, then I remember what one JNCO said to me before I left, you have been the one of a few SNCOs that has supported, protected and backed us up, so don't ever change.
Thanks for the welcome, I do contribute to a Quality forum within Bae Systems, but this is the first time I have entered the fray of one of this stature in the big wide world. I could throw up many examples of the way the airforce has changed since the early 80s, I am also renowned for my war stories, but that as they say is another story (pun intended). I remember coming of a Management Course at Newton, my WO asked me how I found the course, I replied that it reinforced what I believe is the right way to do things, his response was, nice, good, but we do not want any of that new fangled rubbish in my airforce. I have had a lot of correspondance with the MOD/Government through the local MP re the first (or was it really the 2nd/3rd Gulf War) reference the vivid imagination that all those who suffered from undefined illnesses (and those that died from it) had. This futile effort made me realise that the MOD/Government do not care a jot about the Forces/British Public. I also realise that a lot of people have just given up, to try and do what is right is stressfull and does make you suffer all manner of ailments, I am still having this problem in civvy street (all be it I am still working within a military establishment
), I sometimes think I am to old to keep this up, then I remember what one JNCO said to me before I left, you have been the one of a few SNCOs that has supported, protected and backed us up, so don't ever change.
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I think that people at all levels are more inclined to look after number one these days. Powers of punishment have all but been removed entirely for SNCO's - I was told in no uncertain terms that having one of my lads sweep the hangar or clean the vehicals was illegal, and my only recouse was a charge.
Now for a bloke that turns up late it's a bit steep to slap him on a charge, so you give him a bollocking and otherwise let it slide. He knows the worst you can do is get a bit shouty.
Of course, we are encouraged to counsel, and find out WHY he was late - maybe he has family problems etc etc. Well fine, but a good SNCO will know this anyway.
To compound this problem, the middle management do not back up their SNCO's. I recall a Snco's meeting where the Sqn WO told us all to ensure dress standards were improved - no civvy T shirts under overalls, clean overalls, no steels showing through boot leather.
Within 2 days I observed said WO walk straight past a JT who was wearing filthy overalls tied round his waist, and an Iron Maiden T shirt proudly displayed. they even exchanged a 'good morning'.
Now as a newly promoted SNCO, what example am I to take? Where is my back up when I give the blokes a talking to about their standards?
Now for a bloke that turns up late it's a bit steep to slap him on a charge, so you give him a bollocking and otherwise let it slide. He knows the worst you can do is get a bit shouty.
Of course, we are encouraged to counsel, and find out WHY he was late - maybe he has family problems etc etc. Well fine, but a good SNCO will know this anyway.
To compound this problem, the middle management do not back up their SNCO's. I recall a Snco's meeting where the Sqn WO told us all to ensure dress standards were improved - no civvy T shirts under overalls, clean overalls, no steels showing through boot leather.
Within 2 days I observed said WO walk straight past a JT who was wearing filthy overalls tied round his waist, and an Iron Maiden T shirt proudly displayed. they even exchanged a 'good morning'.
Now as a newly promoted SNCO, what example am I to take? Where is my back up when I give the blokes a talking to about their standards?
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But you're right. I charged an airman 4 years ago (the only one in nearly 17 years as an NCO) and it was thrown out. SEngO decided that the gross insubordination displayed was just a bit of banter. I decided SEngO was scared - he's not a lawyer and I, who preferred the charge, am not a scuffer. Hence he threw it out. The airman was promptly marched back in and given a stand-up hats-on interview without coffee but that's not the point.
I've got 2 years left to complete 22 years and there is no way on earth that I am going to complete the LOS 30 that I am signed up for. When Brain Porridge can come here and say to all the SNCO's and junior officers "this is how it is and will be, if you don't like it, leave" and my own gp capt tells all his seniors that "the air force doesn't owe you anything" - well, Mr Gp Capt sir, neither do I, after 21 years service, owe the RAF a goddamned thing, and Mr Porridge sir, after your little diatribe I now have to go back to my section and inspire loyalty in my subordinates. How do I do that when I have just heard with my own ears that the man (until not so long ago) at the top doesn't give a stuff about us?
I love the Service. I really really do, but I cannot wait to leave - that is sad enough but the real tragedy is that there are hundreds, nay! thousands like me.
Oh, I'm off for a cup of tea and a biscuit now. Ta-ta!
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Sadly it's seen as descriminatory, and since I have no powers of punishment, cannot issue anything more than words to assist in 'personal developement'.
In the 1990’s, more financial control was given across to Stn Cdr’s with more responsibility to the direct running of all Station dealings and associated costs. Fuel and heating bills being the start of many of these items. Suddenly the Staish got all hot over Heating bills, and lights being left on in Hangars!
In 1997, there was a huge governmental change where (I think) all top-level ministers had no experience of the military apart from possible cadet service.
In the late 90’s, we also saw a change of attitude from a ‘defence’ orientation towards a ‘business’ orientation. (That’s just about when I left)
‘We’ have had a succession of business-minded ministers in charge of MOD since then, and they have introduced more and more “Cost Effective” measures, meaning less and less direct costs for procurement and replacement and less and less to spend on maintenance costs too.
Privatisation of more and more aspects of Forces Regimes has taken place – IMO straight into the coffers of the new 'few'.
The end result seems to be that defence of the realm has become a business concern first, a governmental publicity tool second, and a defence force later. ('Defence' because I believe the RAF can no longer mount a sustained or long range attack against any substantial counter force).
The only reason the present government is promising to spend money on a Trident replacement (only believe it when we’ve got it) is to retain some credence within world politics. A lack of nuclear clout for UK would remove us from every political forum going, and reduce us to the newest third-world country in the world.
My point in these ramblings?
Over the last 20-ish years, since the Berlin Wall came down, the politicos have changed the allegiance of the ruling ranks to more of a business acumen than a military attitude. I am pretty sure CAS is more worried about the state of his Accounts than the state of the Ammo he is buying.
The RAF is now being run as a business; employing basic and often crude business methods to reduce wastage, without regard for the type of work done or the effect on manning for any other reasons. (Chug – That’s what LEAN is about)
A bit like founding your current man-power on 1990’s weekend working times and conditions.
What remains is a force that can do the very tip of its former capability.
'We' can send our few jets into any trouble arena once.
'We' don’t seem to be sure if we can repeat the action successfully a second time - because we don't have the previously supportive infrastucture, materials or (due to LEAN) manpower.
Please Note : the Govt has now started to LEAN all Govt Offices - including Tax offices, watch the backlogs building there (possibly due to a lack of manpower).
In 1997, there was a huge governmental change where (I think) all top-level ministers had no experience of the military apart from possible cadet service.
In the late 90’s, we also saw a change of attitude from a ‘defence’ orientation towards a ‘business’ orientation. (That’s just about when I left)
‘We’ have had a succession of business-minded ministers in charge of MOD since then, and they have introduced more and more “Cost Effective” measures, meaning less and less direct costs for procurement and replacement and less and less to spend on maintenance costs too.
Privatisation of more and more aspects of Forces Regimes has taken place – IMO straight into the coffers of the new 'few'.
The end result seems to be that defence of the realm has become a business concern first, a governmental publicity tool second, and a defence force later. ('Defence' because I believe the RAF can no longer mount a sustained or long range attack against any substantial counter force).
The only reason the present government is promising to spend money on a Trident replacement (only believe it when we’ve got it) is to retain some credence within world politics. A lack of nuclear clout for UK would remove us from every political forum going, and reduce us to the newest third-world country in the world.
My point in these ramblings?
Over the last 20-ish years, since the Berlin Wall came down, the politicos have changed the allegiance of the ruling ranks to more of a business acumen than a military attitude. I am pretty sure CAS is more worried about the state of his Accounts than the state of the Ammo he is buying.
The RAF is now being run as a business; employing basic and often crude business methods to reduce wastage, without regard for the type of work done or the effect on manning for any other reasons. (Chug – That’s what LEAN is about)
A bit like founding your current man-power on 1990’s weekend working times and conditions.
What remains is a force that can do the very tip of its former capability.
'We' can send our few jets into any trouble arena once.
'We' don’t seem to be sure if we can repeat the action successfully a second time - because we don't have the previously supportive infrastucture, materials or (due to LEAN) manpower.
Please Note : the Govt has now started to LEAN all Govt Offices - including Tax offices, watch the backlogs building there (possibly due to a lack of manpower).
Rigga,
There was no “huge Governmental change in 1997 where all top ministers had no experience of the military” at all.
There was a change of Government in 1997 sure, but no huge change in military experience in the cabinet or amongst Government ministers. What you got in 1997 was what you had had for several previous decades, i.e.; most ministers were career politicians, lawyers, barristers, journalists etc. The only manifest change in the make up of MP’s, as opposed to ministers, following 1997 was the preponderance of ex Trade Union officials as opposed to retired businessmen on the back benches.
Your change of attitude from defence orientation to business orientation did also not magically appear in 1997! I think you are right by the way, but it had started way before 1997, you only have to look at things like Options for Change, the Defence Costs Review, Front Line First, the Defence Costs Study to see the way things were going in the early 90’s. This was when agencies were introduced, contractorisation and civilianization were speeded up massively and non deployable and non front line posts contracted and leaned. That is Thatcher doctrine through and through.
Whilst disagreeing about the origins of this “defence is a business” affair I do have to strongly agree with you that it IS a nonsense and even though it was not a Labour invention they have continued with it with a passion that must delight the likes of Thatcher and Portillo and make the likes of Healey weep.
The rot started with Options for change and the peace dividend in 1990, that was when defence expenditure was reduced massively and sustained capability deemed unnecessary. Labour have increased defence expenditure steadily over the years but from too low a base. Add to that their rank incompetence in management of almost any sophisticated major expenditure and you have the situation we are in now.
I can’t see Cameron making one iota of difference if elected, which is a crying shame.
There was no “huge Governmental change in 1997 where all top ministers had no experience of the military” at all.
There was a change of Government in 1997 sure, but no huge change in military experience in the cabinet or amongst Government ministers. What you got in 1997 was what you had had for several previous decades, i.e.; most ministers were career politicians, lawyers, barristers, journalists etc. The only manifest change in the make up of MP’s, as opposed to ministers, following 1997 was the preponderance of ex Trade Union officials as opposed to retired businessmen on the back benches.
Your change of attitude from defence orientation to business orientation did also not magically appear in 1997! I think you are right by the way, but it had started way before 1997, you only have to look at things like Options for Change, the Defence Costs Review, Front Line First, the Defence Costs Study to see the way things were going in the early 90’s. This was when agencies were introduced, contractorisation and civilianization were speeded up massively and non deployable and non front line posts contracted and leaned. That is Thatcher doctrine through and through.
Whilst disagreeing about the origins of this “defence is a business” affair I do have to strongly agree with you that it IS a nonsense and even though it was not a Labour invention they have continued with it with a passion that must delight the likes of Thatcher and Portillo and make the likes of Healey weep.
The rot started with Options for change and the peace dividend in 1990, that was when defence expenditure was reduced massively and sustained capability deemed unnecessary. Labour have increased defence expenditure steadily over the years but from too low a base. Add to that their rank incompetence in management of almost any sophisticated major expenditure and you have the situation we are in now.
I can’t see Cameron making one iota of difference if elected, which is a crying shame.
‘The RAF is now being run as a business; employing basic and often crude business methods to reduce wastage, without regard for the type of work done or the effect on manning for any other reasons. (Chug – That’s what LEAN is about)
Please Note : the Govt has now started to LEAN all Govt Offices - including Tax offices, watch the backlogs building there (possibly due to a lack of manpower)........
Now, what can be done about it?
Please Note : the Govt has now started to LEAN all Govt Offices - including Tax offices, watch the backlogs building there (possibly due to a lack of manpower)........
Now, what can be done about it?
Rigga, an interesting and well considered piece. Thanks for the meaning of Lean, it seems I was way off the mark with it being a Boy Band! I'm afraid I must share my personal opinions and agree with you. Up to 1997 there were people who had served in the armed forces on the Government benches, who probably had their interests at heart. After that they were replaced by people who in the main had spent their political lives opposed to the 'military industrial complex' or some such cliche, and do not have the interests of the armed forces at heart, including the PM and the present MOD incumbents. But all that is by the bye.
You ask what should be done about it? Well we used to have a system that worked and served the interests of military order and discipline. Now we do not. Tricky one that! Perhaps we should engage the services of some expensive consultants, or we could simply go back to readopting the old system! Sorry, I've just realised how loopy that sounds, I guess it better be the consultants!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Rigga, I agree with the thrust of your argument.
If I need something now, even costing £10 I have to make a business case. I even had to make a business case for a commemorative wreath even though it is in QR J164a(4), IIRC.
From the same CS 2* I had a Dear Colleague letter. It was written in incomprehensive and turgid prose about WoW - Ways of Working. In the mid 90s we had SLAs - service level agreements - and sundry other things.
Trouble is they are generally 'old' new management speak as we play catchup with business and industry and no doubt adopted so that industry can 'recognise' what we are talking about. Also it looks good in your 4* CV - I introduced IiP and maintained it over *******
If I need something now, even costing £10 I have to make a business case. I even had to make a business case for a commemorative wreath even though it is in QR J164a(4), IIRC.
From the same CS 2* I had a Dear Colleague letter. It was written in incomprehensive and turgid prose about WoW - Ways of Working. In the mid 90s we had SLAs - service level agreements - and sundry other things.
Trouble is they are generally 'old' new management speak as we play catchup with business and industry and no doubt adopted so that industry can 'recognise' what we are talking about. Also it looks good in your 4* CV - I introduced IiP and maintained it over *******
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new management speak as we play catchup with business and industry
I find the greatest irony is that management science, pioneered by the likes of John Adair, took the best of military leadership principles and applied it to industry.
A whole academic discipline sprang up, 99% of it irrelevant, which now sells back to the Military its own successful formula (at great cost), but diluted with 99% bovine excrement. Add to the alleged academics the US-Style snake-oil management gurus, and you have fertile ground for 2nd rate Civil Service and Military Leaders to find alleged cure-alls for their own inadequacy.
Whether in the Military or Industry, if you use the schema of classic military appreciation, grounded in the Principles of War, you won't go far wrong. The rest is stuff and nonsense.
Last edited by An Teallach; 13th Dec 2006 at 07:07. Reason: a typographicule errour found in the cauld licht of day
Which would be pretty much the system we used to use, so perhaps readopting it may not be so loopy after all!
By the way did anyone see the Emperors at the MOD today? I'm not one to gossip, but rumour has it... well, if I say not a stitch, my dear, not a stitch! Need I say more?