oh dear
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SRENNAPS,
Like all things - a little knowledge is dangerous. Once you fully understand the limitations and regulations crews work under to safely transport you to your destination then by all means pontificate.
Like all things - a little knowledge is dangerous. Once you fully understand the limitations and regulations crews work under to safely transport you to your destination then by all means pontificate.
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Yea right - give me a break!
I think most of us understand the regs - and when they are being abused.
Thread Starter
Did the CAS travel to Indra Danush via RAF AT?
If so he will have seen the problem first hand, and it will be immediately rectified. I'm sure he will have been handled in the same manner as every other pax.
If so he will have seen the problem first hand, and it will be immediately rectified. I'm sure he will have been handled in the same manner as every other pax.
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Methinks nowt. But I can spot a chip or two a mile off.
Postnote: apologies for repeating the previous - I obviously type slower.
Last edited by ChezTanker; 21st Oct 2006 at 20:02.
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Having read all the posts regarding the RAF AT's performance and having experienced it at first hand IMHO I think that the RAF should be responsible for transporting personnel from the operational area to an airhead outside of the operational area. All AT trooping from that airhead to the UK and vice a versa should be contractorised.
Last edited by MReyn24050; 21st Oct 2006 at 20:32.
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I agree with the MP. It is NOT the break downs and stuff which annoyed me (you get well and truly used to that on the F3) but the bl**dy rubbish flow of information and help you get from the ground staff. I don't think I ever had a single trip 'out' or 'back' to anywhere using AT that wasn't a complete pain in the backside. It always starts witht the turning up hours and hours early and just gets worse from there. I know that our jets are rubbish, I know that things are not going to go to plan most of the time but when you are hanging around in BZN for 2 or 3 hours after wheels before the wretched staff there decide to tell you that the a/c is tits and you will not be going on time, the level of annoyance is high. If you have a bunch of pongo's back from 'stan, they are going to be rightly annoyed when treated firstly like children (turning up so early) and latterly like mushrooms!
The RAF movers et al need a wake up. Glad I only fly AirNZ now!
The RAF movers et al need a wake up. Glad I only fly AirNZ now!
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Chug,
I apologise if my thoughts were not that clear however please let me try and clarify and maybe redress a few issues you and a couple of others have.
If we travel anywhere in the world where we have movements support, although why anyone would choose support as the correct adjective to describe movements, once the pax are disembarked we, as crew, are now reliant on said chisselers to carry out their duties as laid down. Pax are extremely rarely accomodated alondside crew for a whole variety of reasons, mainly pax want to party all night while the crew need to get their sleep...............yeah right
but thems the rules. With that in mind how are we supposed to know when our pax are being fecked about when you are not even in the same post code as us
On the occasion when we have no movers to hand we, the ALM's take charge and normally produce the goods. Example of that is we used to move folks from the "Staan" via Bucharest and the pax came to the same hotel as us for the night stop. We booked everyone a room, most had to double up but that is a bean counter issue and there is nothing we can do about it, we ensured that everyone got a 3 course evening meal and breakfast, paid room bills, advised on best methods of currency exchange, which taxi's to use and where the good bars were and did our best the following day to provide as good an inflight meal service as Bucharest can provide.
I have gone to McD's in Muscat and ordered 75 Big Mac meaks during a protracted flag stop, served 40 odd pissed up fast jet support crew with pizza on the ramp sat outside the RAFLO's office in Gander, handed out icecreams to Chinook crews and GC's in 29 Palms yadda yadda yadda and I know I am one of many who provide that very basic service.........the upshot is that most AT crews are fighting your cause but at some stage we have to hand you over to "the system" and if that lets us both down you have my sincere apologies
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
I apologise if my thoughts were not that clear however please let me try and clarify and maybe redress a few issues you and a couple of others have.
If we travel anywhere in the world where we have movements support, although why anyone would choose support as the correct adjective to describe movements, once the pax are disembarked we, as crew, are now reliant on said chisselers to carry out their duties as laid down. Pax are extremely rarely accomodated alondside crew for a whole variety of reasons, mainly pax want to party all night while the crew need to get their sleep...............yeah right
but thems the rules. With that in mind how are we supposed to know when our pax are being fecked about when you are not even in the same post code as us On the occasion when we have no movers to hand we, the ALM's take charge and normally produce the goods. Example of that is we used to move folks from the "Staan" via Bucharest and the pax came to the same hotel as us for the night stop. We booked everyone a room, most had to double up but that is a bean counter issue and there is nothing we can do about it, we ensured that everyone got a 3 course evening meal and breakfast, paid room bills, advised on best methods of currency exchange, which taxi's to use and where the good bars were and did our best the following day to provide as good an inflight meal service as Bucharest can provide.
I have gone to McD's in Muscat and ordered 75 Big Mac meaks during a protracted flag stop, served 40 odd pissed up fast jet support crew with pizza on the ramp sat outside the RAFLO's office in Gander, handed out icecreams to Chinook crews and GC's in 29 Palms yadda yadda yadda and I know I am one of many who provide that very basic service.........the upshot is that most AT crews are fighting your cause but at some stage we have to hand you over to "the system" and if that lets us both down you have my sincere apologies
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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Your attitude: You see me as low life that uses your planes. I am glad to see that as a " ground technician" (sooty actualy) you seem to think that we dont know - thats why you try it on!!!!
As for chip on my shoulder. I dont think so. I have spent times in a lot of places around the world. Some were good - best hotels going. Some were bad, tents, holes in the ground and burning crap when it got too much. But it was fun. The only real nightmare was when you finished the job and then got screwed around by people who make a living out of feeling sorry for themselves and blamed everbody else.
So mate - I would look at where the CHIP really IS????
PS. Have you read any other posts around here that seem to echo my words??? Or do you just dismiss those as well????
Last edited by SRENNAPS; 21st Oct 2006 at 20:25. Reason: forgot
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I left the Movs trade several years ago and currently work for a blue chip company. I've watched the mover bashing/winding-up for some time on these forums with little serious interest. However, when I was shown the MP's letter the other day at work I admit I could imagine, with great regret, it all happening as described.
I remember when I joined up in the early 70s the first thing instilled in us was that as a mover we would probably be the only person that someone from the Navy or Army would ever meet and as such should represent the service in the best light......where has it all gone wrong?
I know from working in civvy street that customer service costs, but if you don't give it you won't have a customer.
Yes, the movers in Akronelli were probably under pressure at the time, undermanned and under resourced, and they may be able to provide some sort of reason/excuse as to where it all went wrong. What galls me the most though is the way that on their website they say it is just whingeing ppruners and not worthy of a response. If they cannot face the criticism head on and admit to shortcomings how can they improve.
I know I was a good mover. With a couple of tours on UK Bags under my belt I knew when to make my presence known and when to be quiet and sit at the back of the crew bus.
I spent many enjoyable years in Lincolnshire working for the fast jet boys. Again they were our customers and what ever the SEngO wanted I would try and get, I was there to MCCP them at their Sqn HAS site if they wanted, get them thru EMA with minimal customs etc.
The movements trade must have a high level review, if they need more resources to reduce passenger inconvenience they must have them, if they need more quality leadership it must be provided.
I had a great time as a mover, was proud to be one. Do I feel sorry for them with all this bad press?......I'm not sure
I remember when I joined up in the early 70s the first thing instilled in us was that as a mover we would probably be the only person that someone from the Navy or Army would ever meet and as such should represent the service in the best light......where has it all gone wrong?
I know from working in civvy street that customer service costs, but if you don't give it you won't have a customer.
Yes, the movers in Akronelli were probably under pressure at the time, undermanned and under resourced, and they may be able to provide some sort of reason/excuse as to where it all went wrong. What galls me the most though is the way that on their website they say it is just whingeing ppruners and not worthy of a response. If they cannot face the criticism head on and admit to shortcomings how can they improve.
I know I was a good mover. With a couple of tours on UK Bags under my belt I knew when to make my presence known and when to be quiet and sit at the back of the crew bus.
I spent many enjoyable years in Lincolnshire working for the fast jet boys. Again they were our customers and what ever the SEngO wanted I would try and get, I was there to MCCP them at their Sqn HAS site if they wanted, get them thru EMA with minimal customs etc.
The movements trade must have a high level review, if they need more resources to reduce passenger inconvenience they must have them, if they need more quality leadership it must be provided.
I had a great time as a mover, was proud to be one. Do I feel sorry for them with all this bad press?......I'm not sure
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Well mate - that about sums up the attitude that has led to this problem.
Your attitude: You see me as low life that uses your planes. I am glad to see that as a " ground technician" (sooty actualy) you seem to think that we dont know - thats why you try it on!!!!
As for chip on my shoulder. I dont think so. I have spent times in a lot of places around the world. Some were good - best hotels going. Some were bad, tents, holes in the ground and burning crap when it got too much. But it was fun. The only real nightmare was when you finished the job and then got screwed around by people who make a living out of feeling sorry for themselves and blamed everbody else.
So mate - I would look at where the CHIP really IS????
PS. Have you read any other posts around here that seem to echo my words??? Or do you just dismiss those as well????
Your attitude: You see me as low life that uses your planes. I am glad to see that as a " ground technician" (sooty actualy) you seem to think that we dont know - thats why you try it on!!!!
As for chip on my shoulder. I dont think so. I have spent times in a lot of places around the world. Some were good - best hotels going. Some were bad, tents, holes in the ground and burning crap when it got too much. But it was fun. The only real nightmare was when you finished the job and then got screwed around by people who make a living out of feeling sorry for themselves and blamed everbody else.
So mate - I would look at where the CHIP really IS????
PS. Have you read any other posts around here that seem to echo my words??? Or do you just dismiss those as well????
ABIW - having done 4 tours on the K I am actually more at home where you are.
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"ABIW - having done 4 tours on the K I am actually more at home where you are."
Then you should be ashamed of your comment to SRE
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Then you should be ashamed of your comment to SRE
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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,When somebody jumps on the bandwagon and 'quotes' regs - he is fair game. If he then fails to produce those regs he is a b**ls**t artist. Probably not PC but I get bored with chaps having a go when we work our arses off trying to get themselves and us home. Yes I have been a pax on my own and other fleets when they have gone u/s, including contractorised, and it is a pain.
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Abuse of regs may have been a bit strong - but they are certainly used to the advantage of the operator when it suits them.
Dont have a go at me because I have vented off my frusration. I have just said it the way it was. And it appears to be the way it is now.
People are not happy with the AT service provided. And there are just too many excuses.
As for "barrackroom lawyer" well what can I say. That is a cheap shot.
If the AT service is so good - lets have a survey. A 50 question sheet given to the Army Navy and RAF about the service provided - then we will see if I am just a barrackroom lawyer.
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SRE
,
All you needed to do was state the case. If you actually strip out the times the ac goes u/s then your list gets shorter. If an ac is u/s going past a base then depending on the snag, cos we might have loads of engineering mates there, it would be better than landing somewhere that may take some time to get the spares and eng support to. You must have tried to recover spares from custom houses around the world - it is a pain.
By the way I know diddley squat about modern engineering practices pertinent to your type so why should you know what our regulations are? That is the point - folks have a dig when they do not understand crew rest periods and crew duty days that are in place to safeguard you, the passenger, from harm. Everybody has regs they follow and it is not for all to know each others but to understand that folks, if they are the calibre we foster, will try and go that extra mile or hour to ensure the task is completed as long as it does not compromise the safety of our customer - that is you.
,All you needed to do was state the case. If you actually strip out the times the ac goes u/s then your list gets shorter. If an ac is u/s going past a base then depending on the snag, cos we might have loads of engineering mates there, it would be better than landing somewhere that may take some time to get the spares and eng support to. You must have tried to recover spares from custom houses around the world - it is a pain.
By the way I know diddley squat about modern engineering practices pertinent to your type so why should you know what our regulations are? That is the point - folks have a dig when they do not understand crew rest periods and crew duty days that are in place to safeguard you, the passenger, from harm. Everybody has regs they follow and it is not for all to know each others but to understand that folks, if they are the calibre we foster, will try and go that extra mile or hour to ensure the task is completed as long as it does not compromise the safety of our customer - that is you.
Last edited by ChezTanker; 21st Oct 2006 at 21:24.
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SRENNAPS, I have tried to eat some humble pie on this thread wrt the way pax etc are treated when things don't go to plan, but I have to take exception to your latest page of accusations.
I have never been on a jet where I, or anyone on the crew to the best of my knowledge, has manufactured faults etc to stay another night in the hotel. I don't know how to get this through to people, but delays downroute mess me around too, not just our passengers. Yes, perhaps you have been away for some time and want to get home when the jet breaks, and we have only flown in for the night, but you must remember that during the period you have been away at that location, we have probably spent lots of 'one night aways'. Do you honestly believe I have not seen enough of the hotel in Akrotiri, or Calgary or wherever it may be that we break?
Now to move on to the "headwinds, oh oh" ("Comong back from Goose Bay - OH OH!!! head winds - we have to divert into Brize. Oh no!! crew out of time - no others available. Night stop in Gateway".) two points:
1. Headwinds happen. We do not manufacture them so that we can divert to Brize. Do you not think that if we called a div to Brize because of headwinds which weren't there, we would land with far more gas than we needed? This gets noted by the 'auth' and questions would be asked, as inevitably they are on a diversion to ensure it was correct. If we didn't land with lots of spare gas then the Q would be asked why we didn't take more!
2. If this happened as you said, (although I find it odd that such a "lie" would be based on headwinds, when the predominant winds on that route would be tailwinds, therefore making it a particularly bad "lie"), crew duty happens, and lack of crews happens. It's unfortunate, but it does happen.
Basically, I think you are giving us (AT Crews) too much credit for what we can get away with, and not enough credit for being professional. I take my professionalism very flocking seriously, and I do take exception to your sweeping generalising accusations of fraud and foul play.
As stated in a previous post, I (We) endeavour to keep people informed as to what is happening, however if you happen to be on my jet next time we delay somewhere, hows about coming to talk to me if you want more details, instead of making sweeping accusations. I'd be only too happy to provide you the answers, to the best of my ability. I, after all, don't make sweeping accusations about sooties when one of my engines happens to fail; engine failures happen, and I trust you to do your job.
Ps. Yes, the AT system/fleet is ****, and I'm sorry for that. Who knows it better than those of us that get flocked around by delays nearly every single time I go to work, or try to come home. I struggle to believe people think we manufacture more to suit ourselves. There are more than enough genuine delays and break downs wrecking my personal life without making up new ones.
I have never been on a jet where I, or anyone on the crew to the best of my knowledge, has manufactured faults etc to stay another night in the hotel. I don't know how to get this through to people, but delays downroute mess me around too, not just our passengers. Yes, perhaps you have been away for some time and want to get home when the jet breaks, and we have only flown in for the night, but you must remember that during the period you have been away at that location, we have probably spent lots of 'one night aways'. Do you honestly believe I have not seen enough of the hotel in Akrotiri, or Calgary or wherever it may be that we break?
Now to move on to the "headwinds, oh oh" ("Comong back from Goose Bay - OH OH!!! head winds - we have to divert into Brize. Oh no!! crew out of time - no others available. Night stop in Gateway".) two points:
1. Headwinds happen. We do not manufacture them so that we can divert to Brize. Do you not think that if we called a div to Brize because of headwinds which weren't there, we would land with far more gas than we needed? This gets noted by the 'auth' and questions would be asked, as inevitably they are on a diversion to ensure it was correct. If we didn't land with lots of spare gas then the Q would be asked why we didn't take more!
2. If this happened as you said, (although I find it odd that such a "lie" would be based on headwinds, when the predominant winds on that route would be tailwinds, therefore making it a particularly bad "lie"), crew duty happens, and lack of crews happens. It's unfortunate, but it does happen.
Basically, I think you are giving us (AT Crews) too much credit for what we can get away with, and not enough credit for being professional. I take my professionalism very flocking seriously, and I do take exception to your sweeping generalising accusations of fraud and foul play.
As stated in a previous post, I (We) endeavour to keep people informed as to what is happening, however if you happen to be on my jet next time we delay somewhere, hows about coming to talk to me if you want more details, instead of making sweeping accusations. I'd be only too happy to provide you the answers, to the best of my ability. I, after all, don't make sweeping accusations about sooties when one of my engines happens to fail; engine failures happen, and I trust you to do your job.
Ps. Yes, the AT system/fleet is ****, and I'm sorry for that. Who knows it better than those of us that get flocked around by delays nearly every single time I go to work, or try to come home. I struggle to believe people think we manufacture more to suit ourselves. There are more than enough genuine delays and break downs wrecking my personal life without making up new ones.
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Flyboy.............dooh
"Yes, perhaps you have been away for some time and want to get home when the jet breaks, and we have only flown in for the night, but you must remember that during the period you have been away at that location, we have probably spent lots of 'one night aways'. Do you honestly believe I have not seen enough of the hotel in Akrotiri, or Calgary or wherever it may be that we break?"
Thats gonna come as a real comfort to the guys who spend up to 6 months at a time away from home...........I can almost hear the tears of sympathy hitting the floor for you missing your creature comforts for more than one night at a time.................not
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
"Yes, perhaps you have been away for some time and want to get home when the jet breaks, and we have only flown in for the night, but you must remember that during the period you have been away at that location, we have probably spent lots of 'one night aways'. Do you honestly believe I have not seen enough of the hotel in Akrotiri, or Calgary or wherever it may be that we break?"
Thats gonna come as a real comfort to the guys who spend up to 6 months at a time away from home...........I can almost hear the tears of sympathy hitting the floor for you missing your creature comforts for more than one night at a time.................not
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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I have just mentioned some of my personal experiences. I am not accusing any body of anything. But I assure you they are true incidents. My wife was involved in the funeral trip.
I apologise to you all for any insult but I am not on trial here. I say it the way it was and the way it still seems to be.
I have been in the RAF a long time. There are a lot of good people. But there are also an awful lot of people who are in it for nothing but themselves - too many these days. And they are the ones that are not helping.
Oh and by the way, as a yachtsman I know my weather, I also queried the headwinds on that trip and was looked at rather blankly.
I apologise to you all for any insult but I am not on trial here. I say it the way it was and the way it still seems to be.
I have been in the RAF a long time. There are a lot of good people. But there are also an awful lot of people who are in it for nothing but themselves - too many these days. And they are the ones that are not helping.
Oh and by the way, as a yachtsman I know my weather, I also queried the headwinds on that trip and was looked at rather blankly.
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Please don't misunderstand me ABIW, I'm not hunting for sympathy nor trying to compare our series of night stops with a 6 month det, but merely trying to point out that a delay also messes me around, therefore i'm not going to manufacture delays so I can have another night in a hotel.
I have nothing but respect and sympathy for those that do 6 months away, and then get messed around when trying to finally get home, however I do take exception to people suggesting I manufacture said delays so that I may spend another night somewhere.
I have nothing but respect and sympathy for those that do 6 months away, and then get messed around when trying to finally get home, however I do take exception to people suggesting I manufacture said delays so that I may spend another night somewhere.
Shutting up now