Future Carrier (Including Costs)
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 24,509
Likes: 7,254
From: Peripatetic
Biggs, my point wasn’t to order Patriot or IRIS, it was to procure large numbers of Ukraine UAS interceptors such as the WildHornets Sting.
https://youtu.be/9BW9UGX7dl4?si=JdxMZW9hbBBceupI
https://www.defensenews.com/news/pen...-wants-to-buy/
These are Ukraine’s $1,000 interceptor drones the Pentagon wants to buy
https://youtu.be/9BW9UGX7dl4?si=JdxMZW9hbBBceupI
https://www.defensenews.com/news/pen...-wants-to-buy/
These are Ukraine’s $1,000 interceptor drones the Pentagon wants to buy
Last edited by ORAC; 12th March 2026 at 06:35.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 24,509
Likes: 7,254
From: Peripatetic
Things getting nasty in Whitehall.
Politico London Playbook:
* https://archive.is/20260312064411/ht...ser-to-the-eu/
Politico London Playbook:
Tim Shipman’s weekly dispatch from the crumbling center of government lifts the lid on a growing rift between No. 10 and Chief of Defence Staff Richard Knighton, who officials slam as a “a process man, not a war fighter.” In his Spectator piece*, Shipman claims Knighton advised against sending warships to the eastern Mediterranean because “we have an aircraft carrier — it’s called Cyprus.” The briefings only get nastier: Knighton is painted as “not very competent” and a “bean counter” who “failed to count the beans” after leaving the MoD budget unresolved as the Iran war broke.
Knighton fights on: A government spokesperson hit back last night, calling the allegations “incorrect and ridiculous” and stressing that Knighton is “hugely respected across defense and government.” Three other defense figures also dismissed the briefings when speaking to Playbook. That Lobby briefing is going to be quite the show.
Knighton fights on: A government spokesperson hit back last night, calling the allegations “incorrect and ridiculous” and stressing that Knighton is “hugely respected across defense and government.” Three other defense figures also dismissed the briefings when speaking to Playbook. That Lobby briefing is going to be quite the show.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 501
Likes: 91
From: UK
Things getting nasty in Whitehall.
Politico London Playbook:
* https://archive.is/20260312064411/ht...ser-to-the-eu/
Politico London Playbook:
* https://archive.is/20260312064411/ht...ser-to-the-eu/
Key context to all of this is that the RN is currently at the bottom of a trough, in terms of numbers of assets, as a result of decisions made by successive governments over the last 20 years. On current plans, frigate numbers will increase from 6 clapped-out vessels to 13 modern frigates - but not until 2035 at least. As of today, the chickens have come home and are roosting.
Last edited by Frostchamber; 12th March 2026 at 14:57.
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 241
Likes: 41
From: South Glos
Rachel from Accounts won't be looking down the back of her purse to fund it, but yes, we'd be a long way back in the queue and would be decades away from in-service.
Probably better off jumping in with many other European countries and ordering some IRIS-T systems, which maybe only medium range compared to Patriot and Arrow 3 systems, but better to have something rather than the nothing we currently have, although isn't there a land-based system already on the market that uses the same Astor 30 missiles used in the T45, which might make more sense to the UK?
Probably better off jumping in with many other European countries and ordering some IRIS-T systems, which maybe only medium range compared to Patriot and Arrow 3 systems, but better to have something rather than the nothing we currently have, although isn't there a land-based system already on the market that uses the same Astor 30 missiles used in the T45, which might make more sense to the UK?
The land based Aster 30 system is SAMP/T which the French, Italians and Ukrainians use and who are crying out for increased missile production.
Everybody has the same problem - upscaling their production quickly.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,470
Likes: 844
From: Here 'n' there!
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 24,509
Likes: 7,254
From: Peripatetic
https://www.navylookout.com/rfa-lyme...acuation-role/
RFA Lyme Bay made ready for possible deployment to Eastern Mediterranean
The Royal Navy is preparing RFA Lyme Bay to sail from Gibraltar if required. In the event of the Middle East crisis expanding, she has the capability to evacuate civilians and has modest medical facilities.
Although retaining some of her crew, Lyme Bay has been inactive alongside in Gibraltar since completing a 3-week maintenance period at GibDock in December. She had not been expected to return to operations until the start of the new financial year in April. This measure, to achieve very small savings, demonstrates how desperately tight the MoD’s RDEL (daily running expenses) budget has become.
Instead, she was reactivated last week, and medical personnel and supplies are being flown into Gibraltar to embark on the ship, along with a contingent of Royal Marines and a helicopter (most likely a Merlin Mk 4).
Below the vehicle deck, Lyme Bay has accommodation for around 350 troops, which could be used for transport civilians for short periods. Camp beds on the vehicle deck and other compartments could increase numbers to up to about 500 if really needed. The Bay-class do not have a permanent hangar but have a fabric Rubb deck shelter which can house either a helicopter, small boats or possibly a casualty reception area. They are equipped with a Role 2 medical facility comprising a ward with 12 beds, an operating theatre, dental surgery, X-ray facilities, and a medical laboratory.
With the recent decommissioning of RFA Argus and the LPDs, Lyme Bay is the next best option for this kind of mission, and the only naval vessel the UK currently has in the Mediterranean.
Preparations are described as ‘precautionary’. The precise scenario in which Lyme Bay might be utilised has not been specifically defined, but she provides a range of options. The most likely evacuation task would be the rescue of British nationals from Lebanon if the conflict expands. Whether employed in Non-combatant Evacuation Operations (NEO), as a refuelling base for helicopters, or to deploy special forces, Lyme Bay is a flexible platform.
With France having deployed almost its entire active fleet, there is also a political dimension that demands a more visible British naval presence on scene as soon as possible. HMS Dragon is heading for Cyprus and is likely to sail from Portsmouth sometime in the next two days.
The Royal Navy is preparing RFA Lyme Bay to sail from Gibraltar if required. In the event of the Middle East crisis expanding, she has the capability to evacuate civilians and has modest medical facilities.
Although retaining some of her crew, Lyme Bay has been inactive alongside in Gibraltar since completing a 3-week maintenance period at GibDock in December. She had not been expected to return to operations until the start of the new financial year in April. This measure, to achieve very small savings, demonstrates how desperately tight the MoD’s RDEL (daily running expenses) budget has become.
Instead, she was reactivated last week, and medical personnel and supplies are being flown into Gibraltar to embark on the ship, along with a contingent of Royal Marines and a helicopter (most likely a Merlin Mk 4).
Below the vehicle deck, Lyme Bay has accommodation for around 350 troops, which could be used for transport civilians for short periods. Camp beds on the vehicle deck and other compartments could increase numbers to up to about 500 if really needed. The Bay-class do not have a permanent hangar but have a fabric Rubb deck shelter which can house either a helicopter, small boats or possibly a casualty reception area. They are equipped with a Role 2 medical facility comprising a ward with 12 beds, an operating theatre, dental surgery, X-ray facilities, and a medical laboratory.
With the recent decommissioning of RFA Argus and the LPDs, Lyme Bay is the next best option for this kind of mission, and the only naval vessel the UK currently has in the Mediterranean.
Preparations are described as ‘precautionary’. The precise scenario in which Lyme Bay might be utilised has not been specifically defined, but she provides a range of options. The most likely evacuation task would be the rescue of British nationals from Lebanon if the conflict expands. Whether employed in Non-combatant Evacuation Operations (NEO), as a refuelling base for helicopters, or to deploy special forces, Lyme Bay is a flexible platform.
With France having deployed almost its entire active fleet, there is also a political dimension that demands a more visible British naval presence on scene as soon as possible. HMS Dragon is heading for Cyprus and is likely to sail from Portsmouth sometime in the next two days.
RFA Lyme Bay L3007 receiving fuel from tanker alongside the south mole yesterday afternoon. Expected to sail to the Middle East this weekend.
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 1,978
Likes: 376
From: Hampshire
"Modest Medical Facilities" indeed, RFA Argus had a 100 bed hospital - I will be interested to see what (if any) provision for the casualty receiving role will be included in the MRSS specifications.
The RN website hasn't yet been updated to reflect her withdrawal.
(I sometimes wonder if some of my posts are invisible 
- but I was more focussed on the RDEL savings comment)
The RN website hasn't yet been updated to reflect her withdrawal.
The Royal Navy’s Casualty ‘Class’ consists of just one vessel, RFA Argus. The primary role of this ship is to receive and treat casualties and for this purpose it has a fully-equipped, 100-bed hospital complete with a four-bay operating theatre, ten-bed critical care unit, 20-bed high dependency unit and a CT scanner.
- but I was more focussed on the RDEL savings comment)
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,616
Likes: 205
From: aus
RAAF C-17 land in Gibraltar and unloads stuff. Same place Lyme Bay is being worked on
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,967
Likes: 100
From: Devon
I see that USS Nimitz is being extended in service until next year, instead of decommissioning this year. Presumably this is to avoid a reduction in carrier numbers until the second of the Ford class enters service. If only we could do the same with frigates.
Unless I missed something, the idea that they can't be manned is a bit of throwaway speculation in the NL article, rather than the "fact" that some seem to be taking it as.
Interestingly, if you add up the complements of both carriers, the 19 nominal DD/FF, 11 submarines, 6 MCMV (plus spare crew) and eight OPV, you end up with about 8500 billets. Add in another 1000 for the 9 or so NAS and another 1000 or so for RFA and you get to 10500. From a trained strength of about 28000 including Royal. So easily a sea/shore ratio of 1:1. Which as we know means that it's not a raw numbers game as some are suggesting, less still caused (along with famine, pestilence, disease, poverty, global warming, crime epidemics and the cost of living crisis) "by the carriers".
It's actually shortage of specific roles particularly in engineering trades stemming from some piss-poor personnel policies and initiatives ever since Topmast. Compounded by an ever more prescriptive training system where the shortage of seagoing billets (see knackered frigates) is making it harder to grow those people.
Sorry for a late reply - what do you make of these comments by a serving RN ME Officer?
A frigate has a crew of 190 or so; a destroyer more than 200. Further, we have few of each. The RN has undertaken to maintain a global presence and is obliged (by the Defence Plan) to keep a ship in the Falklands: even were we to discount the second ship in the Far East and hand the Caribbean back to the RFA, that's three frigates tied up overseas on a permanent basis, more if we want to rotate hulls. We can't afford to do that with current designs or current personnel availability: one of the reasons SPEY is replacing LANCASTER is because B2OPV has a total crew of 80, against LANC's dual crew of nudging 400.
Further, as I've argued elsewhere, the RN needs ships to act as training wheels. It takes 6-8 months to bring a trainee Officer of the Watch up to speed to attempt the qualifying exams: that becomes much longer if the Ship is in hostile waters when giving the con to a trainee is seen as unacceptably risky. You can only realistically train four at a time; replacement by sim training would require the Marime & Coastguard Agency's (MCA) approval. This burden used to fall on the MCMV flotilla, which has halved in size: we have increasingly few places to train watchkeepers. Conversion rate is not 100%, either. The fewer hulls additional to FF/DD numbers we have, the harder it is to sustain a watchkeeping cadre.
If you work on the assumption that a third of complex warships will be in refit or the like at any one time, than having eight fully manned and reasonably ready might be considered the same as having eleven (the post integrated review number) with a third in refit or similar.
Some may be interested in this thread: The (absolute) state of the Naval Service
The same guy quoted above pointed out that:
A carrier is essential for fighting a serious war at sea, so we also need escorts and supply vessels to match. Fine. In that case, we need to fund enough vessels to provide a carrier strike group plus everything else we want to be able to do.
Note that "enough" is ideally thrice what you want to have at sea at any given time, to allow for adequate maintenance and unreasonable things like leave. "Twice" is too little and will result in gaps opening.
My own heretical view is that we've insisted on top end capability and worn out very capable hulls on routine constabulary tasks. That said, I don't think the higher echelons of power understand that machinery will eventually fail when run hard; and that life is an inverse function of stress imposed.
Hmmmm. The reason the frigates are being retired early, is because they have been run to something like twice their design life and to allow them to keep going would require very intrusive and expensive refits. Said refits would also take a very long time so the additional ship time available would be small. In other words, very poor bang for buck.
Unless I missed something, the idea that they can't be manned is a bit of throwaway speculation in the NL article, rather than the "fact" that some seem to be taking it as.
Interestingly, if you add up the complements of both carriers, the 19 nominal DD/FF, 11 submarines, 6 MCMV (plus spare crew) and eight OPV, you end up with about 8500 billets. Add in another 1000 for the 9 or so NAS and another 1000 or so for RFA and you get to 10500. From a trained strength of about 28000 including Royal. So easily a sea/shore ratio of 1:1. Which as we know means that it's not a raw numbers game as some are suggesting, less still caused (along with famine, pestilence, disease, poverty, global warming, crime epidemics and the cost of living crisis) "by the carriers".
It's actually shortage of specific roles particularly in engineering trades stemming from some piss-poor personnel policies and initiatives ever since Topmast. Compounded by an ever more prescriptive training system where the shortage of seagoing billets (see knackered frigates) is making it harder to grow those people.
Sorry for a late reply - what do you make of these comments by a serving RN ME Officer?
A frigate has a crew of 190 or so; a destroyer more than 200. Further, we have few of each. The RN has undertaken to maintain a global presence and is obliged (by the Defence Plan) to keep a ship in the Falklands: even were we to discount the second ship in the Far East and hand the Caribbean back to the RFA, that's three frigates tied up overseas on a permanent basis, more if we want to rotate hulls. We can't afford to do that with current designs or current personnel availability: one of the reasons SPEY is replacing LANCASTER is because B2OPV has a total crew of 80, against LANC's dual crew of nudging 400.
Further, as I've argued elsewhere, the RN needs ships to act as training wheels. It takes 6-8 months to bring a trainee Officer of the Watch up to speed to attempt the qualifying exams: that becomes much longer if the Ship is in hostile waters when giving the con to a trainee is seen as unacceptably risky. You can only realistically train four at a time; replacement by sim training would require the Marime & Coastguard Agency's (MCA) approval. This burden used to fall on the MCMV flotilla, which has halved in size: we have increasingly few places to train watchkeepers. Conversion rate is not 100%, either. The fewer hulls additional to FF/DD numbers we have, the harder it is to sustain a watchkeeping cadre.
If you work on the assumption that a third of complex warships will be in refit or the like at any one time, than having eight fully manned and reasonably ready might be considered the same as having eleven (the post integrated review number) with a third in refit or similar.
Some may be interested in this thread: The (absolute) state of the Naval Service
The same guy quoted above pointed out that:
A carrier is essential for fighting a serious war at sea, so we also need escorts and supply vessels to match. Fine. In that case, we need to fund enough vessels to provide a carrier strike group plus everything else we want to be able to do.
Note that "enough" is ideally thrice what you want to have at sea at any given time, to allow for adequate maintenance and unreasonable things like leave. "Twice" is too little and will result in gaps opening.
My own heretical view is that we've insisted on top end capability and worn out very capable hulls on routine constabulary tasks. That said, I don't think the higher echelons of power understand that machinery will eventually fail when run hard; and that life is an inverse function of stress imposed.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 24,509
Likes: 7,254
From: Peripatetic
……………….
With new RFI, Royal Navy unveils project HORUS: aim is to put sensors on uncrewed boats to detect drones, cruise missiles, low flying jets and ideally surface drones. Ideally for delivery around end of June...!
Uncrewed picket ships would indeed be useful, wouldn't they.…
The list of potential payloads, several of which at container+ size, for uncrewed vessels is rapidly growing, but the clarity on when / how / how many sizeable uncrewed vessels able to carry containers will be built is, of course, missing in action at least until DiP comes.
Uncrewed picket ships would indeed be useful, wouldn't they.…
The list of potential payloads, several of which at container+ size, for uncrewed vessels is rapidly growing, but the clarity on when / how / how many sizeable uncrewed vessels able to carry containers will be built is, of course, missing in action at least until DiP comes.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,967
Likes: 100
From: Devon
On an Iran related note: Royal Navy: Channel 5 TV special to show 'most dangerous leg' of HMS Prince of Wales’ Pacific op - when, times - Portsmouth News
Scheduled to air on March 25 at 9pm...
Discussing the synopsis, a Channel 5 spokesperson said: “Filmed in October 2025, the aircraft carrier comes under orders to conduct warfighting drills within sight of Iran, just months after it entered into a 12-day war with Israel. JJ witnesses state of the art jets dropping massive bombs on the northern edge of the Arabian sea, well within range of Iranian drones and missiles.
“When HMS Prince of Wales then turns to begin her long journey home, she must first pass through treacherous waters patrolled by Houthi terrorists. Backed by Iran, they have made threats against the Royal Navy, so JJ and the crew must prepare for the worst.”
Look out for the jets launching or on deck alert with air to air weapons. When launched they would have been under the control of the Type 45, just as ASW Merlins (Iran has submarines too) would have been under the control of a frigate which would have provided long range detection. That is why I personally think it makes no sense to talk of the carrier and escorts, as they work together to provide Sea Control (as discussed at length on a dedicated thread).
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 24,509
Likes: 7,254
From: Peripatetic
Two things that a Type 45 will add to British defence around Cyprus are forward radar coverage
I did a tour there back in the 1970s. 6000ft gives you really good radar coverage.
https://www.forcesnews.com/news/snow...ghest-mountain
Joined: Dec 2001
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 2,964
Likes: 483
From: The Roman Empire
So who was controlling the aircraft before Dragon arrived.....presumably someone was, and doing a good enough job that Dragon wasn't considered necessary until politics got in the way?
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,196
Likes: 20
From: Horsham, England, UK. ---o--O--o---
I just listened to a car crash interview on LBC with the Defence Secretary who didn’t seem to know how many RN vessels we have! Unfortunately, we are having to borrow a German warship for a NATO mission in the Baltic next month commanded by an RN officer. We have no other ships available to deploy at all! How embarrassing. I knew things were bad but
hell!https://articles.globalplayer.com/2G...rScheme=system
Last edited by Out Of Trim; 26th March 2026 at 13:58.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 24,509
Likes: 7,254
From: Peripatetic
This is a car crash. We don’t have 17 frigates and destroyers. We have 13 - six destroyers and seven frigates (soon to be six) - currently in service with the Royal Navy.
How many frigates and destroyers does the UK have at its disposal? Defence Secretary John Healey can't seem to tell @NickFerrariLBCwith any certainty.
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 1,978
Likes: 376
From: Hampshire
.Bye the bye, there also appear to be at least 2 Shadows operating from Akrotiri.