Future Carrier (Including Costs)
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From: Portsmouth
Why? You're talking about two different classes separated by well over a decade?
Comparing RCB1 to Amazonas is daft given the history.
You appeared to be comparing RCB2 to Amazonas, which would be more sensible given their origin and relative proximity, but cost differences explained by the factors I outlined earlier.
I'm afraid your logic is impenetrable.....
Comparing RCB1 to Amazonas is daft given the history.
You appeared to be comparing RCB2 to Amazonas, which would be more sensible given their origin and relative proximity, but cost differences explained by the factors I outlined earlier.
I'm afraid your logic is impenetrable.....
Joined: Oct 2018
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From: Ferrara
The point was that the newer ones are bigger and more expensive and that's a common trend. Any "Arsenal Ships" will start out as being (relatively) simple and low cost but its unlikely that they'll finish up that way.
Anyway what's a decade in UK procurement - especially for warships?
Perhaps we can wander back to carriers.... wherever they are
Anyway what's a decade in UK procurement - especially for warships?
Perhaps we can wander back to carriers.... wherever they are
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 1,978
Likes: 376
From: Hampshire
IMO the trend is more to be forced into initially buying something cheap and inadequately equipped by the bean counters of the House of Darkness until they can be convinced to release more money to make a cost effective version. I hark back half a century to the Type 42 which budgetary constraints forced to be too small, under armed, and lacking resistance to action damage. I still remember my father ranting on about the PVC cabling vs the fire resistant multiple independent wiring runs of the ships of the previous generation that shared their names.
Back to the carrier question, PoW was subject to some tug assisted movement earlier this week. I think we all know where QE is. Lord Torrington's concept of the fleet in being is still as relevant as in 1690. Now one seems to moan about military aircraft spending most of the time on the ground.
Anyway this was just an excuse to mention that CNS Esmeralda (the Chiliean Navy's four masted training barquentine) is scheduled to arrive in Pompey tomorrow evening. She is on a six month training voyage with 94 mids. onboard and a number of officers from other navies. She is calling at twelve ports in nine countries, most recently Brest.
Correction: she will anchor overnight at Spithead and enter port on Monday
Back to the carrier question, PoW was subject to some tug assisted movement earlier this week. I think we all know where QE is. Lord Torrington's concept of the fleet in being is still as relevant as in 1690. Now one seems to moan about military aircraft spending most of the time on the ground.
Anyway this was just an excuse to mention that CNS Esmeralda (the Chiliean Navy's four masted training barquentine) is scheduled to arrive in Pompey tomorrow evening. She is on a six month training voyage with 94 mids. onboard and a number of officers from other navies. She is calling at twelve ports in nine countries, most recently Brest.
Correction: she will anchor overnight at Spithead and enter port on Monday
King's Harbour Master Portsmouth
GUN SALUTE – CHILEAN NAVY WARSHIP 1 JULY 2024
LNTM No 81/24
1. NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN by the King's Harbour Master Portsmouth that a 19 Gun salute will be conducted by the CNS “Esmeralda”, to celebrate her arrival for a formal five-day visit to the City of Portsmouth on Monday 1 July 2024.
2. The vessel will commence the ceremonial salute as she transits north from Outer Spit Buoy (OSB) at approx. 0930 on her inbound passage toward the War Memorial, Southsea seafront, completing at approx. 0940.
3. To ensure safety during the firing, as allowed in the provisions of the Dockyard Port of Portsmouth Order 2005, KHM will impose a dynamic exclusion zone of 100 metres around the ship in all directions for all marine traffic during her transit from the OSB to the vicinity of the Southsea War Memorial. Mariners are to remain clear of this exclusion zone.
4. A sécurité broadcast will be made on VHF Channel 11 by KHM enacting the exclusion zone with a further broadcast to disestablish the exclusion zone immediately on completion of the event.
5. Cancel this Local Notice to Mariners 2 July 2024.
GUN SALUTE – CHILEAN NAVY WARSHIP 1 JULY 2024
LNTM No 81/24 1. NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN by the King's Harbour Master Portsmouth that a 19 Gun salute will be conducted by the CNS “Esmeralda”, to celebrate her arrival for a formal five-day visit to the City of Portsmouth on Monday 1 July 2024.
2. The vessel will commence the ceremonial salute as she transits north from Outer Spit Buoy (OSB) at approx. 0930 on her inbound passage toward the War Memorial, Southsea seafront, completing at approx. 0940.
3. To ensure safety during the firing, as allowed in the provisions of the Dockyard Port of Portsmouth Order 2005, KHM will impose a dynamic exclusion zone of 100 metres around the ship in all directions for all marine traffic during her transit from the OSB to the vicinity of the Southsea War Memorial. Mariners are to remain clear of this exclusion zone.
4. A sécurité broadcast will be made on VHF Channel 11 by KHM enacting the exclusion zone with a further broadcast to disestablish the exclusion zone immediately on completion of the event.
5. Cancel this Local Notice to Mariners 2 July 2024.
Last edited by SLXOwft; 28th June 2024 at 18:21.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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From: Peripatetic
Type 26 construction now is on simultaneously in UK, Australia and Canada across 3 variants. Canada has announced them as the River-class destroyers (which is kinda fair, really) and named the first 3.
We welcome the announcement of the start of construction of test modules for the Canadian Surface Combatant, and eagerly await the arrival of HMCS Fraser, Saint-Laurent and Mackenzie.
Joined: Apr 2011
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From: aus
Reading the details, holy cow 6-8 years for the first (2030's) and 2050 for the last.
Last edited by rattman; 29th June 2024 at 01:49.
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From: Ferrara
Harland & Wolf shares suspended
UK Strategic Defence Review 2020 - get your bids in now ladies & gents
UK Strategic Defence Review 2020 - get your bids in now ladies & gents
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Peripatetic
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ss-royal-navy/
Have the Houthis sunk a British warship? Here’s what actually happened
I’m telling you because the Ministry of Defence can’t be bothered
Have the Houthis sunk a British warship? Here’s what actually happened
I’m telling you because the Ministry of Defence can’t be bothered
Last edited by ORAC; 4th July 2024 at 05:38.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,967
Likes: 100
From: Devon
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ss-royal-navy/
Have the Houthis sunk a British warship? Here’s what actually happened
I’m telling you because the Ministry of Defence can’t be bothered
Have the Houthis sunk a British warship? Here’s what actually happened
I’m telling you because the Ministry of Defence can’t be bothered
I am normally the first to criticise MOD and RN public relations - for example the way that during the CSG21 deployment it fell to the BBC and Sky to report the multiple interceptions of Russian aircraft by carrier based F-35Bs working with the destroyers, and the detection and tracking of Russian and Chinese submarines by frigates working with carrier based ASW Merlins - but I think that pre election purdah has applied to virtually all news stories from every Government department.
There have been interesting international events happening in the background.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Peripatetic
The Royal Netherlands navy 🇳🇱 is buying its first two 'loyal wingman' to disperse firepower in a TG. The vessels are still crewed but weapons are to be controlled from the frigates.
I'm very curious to see how they're going to get the C2 working for this.
https://www.naval-technology.com/new...o-civil-ships/
Dutch Navy looks to fit air defence payload to ‘civil’ ships
The service will procure Multi Functional Support Ships to deploy Standard Missile 2 units as a way to disperse firepower across the fleet.
In line with their plans to disperse air defence capabilities across the fleet to meet a new range of maritime threats, the Royal Netherlands Navy will acquire two home-built “civil supplier type” support ships.
Currently, the government has not determined the specific model of the ships. A Ministry of Defence spokesperson said that the details will be confirmed after the topic has been discussed among the House of Representatives before the end of 2024.
The force refers to these future vessels as Multi Functional Support Ships (MFSS). The government will approach their own supplier base within the Dutch maritime industry. The Netherlands Material and IT command investigates the total market of suppliers who provide containerised payloads.
“The initial goal is to integrate [an] air defence payload in a network with a frigate. Integration in a wider network will be considered” down the line, they added….. [more]
I'm very curious to see how they're going to get the C2 working for this.
https://www.naval-technology.com/new...o-civil-ships/
Dutch Navy looks to fit air defence payload to ‘civil’ ships
The service will procure Multi Functional Support Ships to deploy Standard Missile 2 units as a way to disperse firepower across the fleet.
In line with their plans to disperse air defence capabilities across the fleet to meet a new range of maritime threats, the Royal Netherlands Navy will acquire two home-built “civil supplier type” support ships.
Currently, the government has not determined the specific model of the ships. A Ministry of Defence spokesperson said that the details will be confirmed after the topic has been discussed among the House of Representatives before the end of 2024.
The force refers to these future vessels as Multi Functional Support Ships (MFSS). The government will approach their own supplier base within the Dutch maritime industry. The Netherlands Material and IT command investigates the total market of suppliers who provide containerised payloads.
“The initial goal is to integrate [an] air defence payload in a network with a frigate. Integration in a wider network will be considered” down the line, they added….. [more]
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,967
Likes: 100
From: Devon
I am sure that the UK once intended to do that with Sea Wolf fitted to RFAs but controlled from warships.
Anyway - back to the carrier topic, recent weeks have seen some interesting events. On 19 June, the Russian were reported to have been exercising the sea denial tactics:
Russia nuclear-powered submarines launch missiles in Barents Sea drills
June 19 (Reuters) - Nuclear-powered submarines of Russia's Northern Fleet launched cruise missiles at sea targets as part of exercises in the Barents Sea, Russian news agencies reported on Wednesday, citing the fleet's news service.
"The nuclear submarine missile cruisers ... of Northern Fleet carried out practical missile firing at sea targets in the Barents Sea," the TASS news agency reported, citing the statement from fleet.
The Severodvinsk and the Orel nuclear-powered submarines fired Kalibr and Granit cruise missiles a distance of about 170 km (106 miles) at a target simulating a detachment of landing ships of a mock enemy, the Interfax news agency reported.
However, the firings have taken place in waters close to Russia, with Russian fighters aircraft nearby. The submarine firing anti ship cruise missiles in the Norwegian Sea, GIUK gap, or beyond would face huge problems:
1. NATO tracks all Russian submarines.
2. NATO has strong ASW forces - including shipborne (including carrierborne) ASW helicopters that act on conjunction with surface warships with long range sonar and coordinated with NATO submarines and MPA.
3. Any attempt to use aircraft against helicopters or MPA will result in a quick response from the carrier's jets.
4. As submarines have limited means to detect targets at long range, the cruise missiles will depend on targeting platforms - possibly aircraft. In the Cold War dealing with Bears performing this role was a job for carrier based aircraft, and the primary role for the Royal Navy's Sea Harrier. It was the need for ASW helicopters operations around the the clock, and to deal with the Bears doing reconnaissance and targeting, that kept the Royal Navy in the carrier game and led to the Invincible class CVS/Sea King/Sea Harrier combination.
5. Back in the 1970s it was expected that the fighters (certainly the USN F-14 Tomcat, less so the Sea Harrier FRS1 with only Sidewinder) would be able to splashed missiles. Not so long ago a USN F/A-18E/F Super Hornet proved this in the Red Sea, and an Israeli F-35I did so not too long before that. The increased missile load and sensor capabilities of today's aircraft means they can counter a salvo of missiles.
6. A submarine cannot control the airspace, and therefore a group of submarines cannot perform a sea control role in the same way as a carrier group.
7. It is interesting that the quoted Russian news article referred to a target simulating a detachment of landing ships of a mock enemy. This actually reminds us of the need for sea control, and the need for carriers to protect amphibious forces. Submarine launched anti ship missiles do not provide an anti carrier argument, they provide more justification for the carrier and carrier group.
On the other side of the World, the US Navy seems to have quietly developed a very long range air to air missile:
AIM-174 Super Hornet-Launched Variant Of SM-6 Missile Breaks Cover In Hawaii - The War Zone
The SM-6 is also ‘networked’ with the ability to receive critical data from an array of platforms that can provide remote targeting that is not organic to the missile’s launch platform. In this sense, it would be able to exploit the various benefits of the Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air concept, or NIFC-CA, which is increasingly bringing together the complementary capabilities of platforms such as the F-35 stealth fighter, E-2D Advanced Hawkeye radar plane, Aegis-equipped warships, and weapons like the SM-6. For example, this architecture should allow a Super Hornet to use the AIM-174B to engage targets that are beyond the range of its own radar as well as target sets that it cannot otherwise handle, like ballistic missiles.
As an air-to-air weapon, the AIM-174B would provide the Super Hornet with the ability to engage a wide variety of aerial threats at distances of over hundreds of miles, a significant advantage over the current AIM-120 AMRAAM and likely also beyond the range of the still-in-development AIM-260 JATM. Air launch at speed and altitude by a fighter means it will have significantly greater range and enhanced kinematics over the surface-launched variant, although it does not have the booster that the standard SM-6 utilizes. The surface-launched SM-6’s range is currently thought to be around 230 miles, but this depends on many factors, including the mode in which it is being used.
Such a long-range missile would be a huge advantage considering China is now fielding its own very long-range air-to-air missiles. Using AIM-174B against airborne early warning, reconnaissance, maritime patrol, aerial refueling, and bomber/cruise missile carrier aircraft at extreme ranges would be a major enhancement in the Navy’s air combat capabilities and a huge threat to these lumbering enemy aircraft. This would be one key way the U.S. could help counter a portion of China’s looming anti-access infrastructure...
It is already operational.
U.S. Navy Confirms SM-6 Air Launched Configuration Is ‘Operationally Deployed’ - Naval News
I suspect that there is a clever person at the US Naval Post Graduate School working on mathematical methods and software to determine the optimal balance between fighters with very long range AAMs, and ones carrying the maximum number of Sidewinder/AMRAAM for magazine depth.
Before you ask, yes I have copied and pasted from Late 1970s US Congress Report - The US Sea Control Mission (carriers needed in the Atlantic for Air Defence and ASW - both then and today) on another site. We are once again in an era of state versus state hostility, contested seas and maritime airspace, and as the Houthis show, conventional and hybrid capabilities in the hands of state sponsored proxies.
Anyway - back to the carrier topic, recent weeks have seen some interesting events. On 19 June, the Russian were reported to have been exercising the sea denial tactics:
Russia nuclear-powered submarines launch missiles in Barents Sea drills
June 19 (Reuters) - Nuclear-powered submarines of Russia's Northern Fleet launched cruise missiles at sea targets as part of exercises in the Barents Sea, Russian news agencies reported on Wednesday, citing the fleet's news service.
"The nuclear submarine missile cruisers ... of Northern Fleet carried out practical missile firing at sea targets in the Barents Sea," the TASS news agency reported, citing the statement from fleet.
The Severodvinsk and the Orel nuclear-powered submarines fired Kalibr and Granit cruise missiles a distance of about 170 km (106 miles) at a target simulating a detachment of landing ships of a mock enemy, the Interfax news agency reported.
However, the firings have taken place in waters close to Russia, with Russian fighters aircraft nearby. The submarine firing anti ship cruise missiles in the Norwegian Sea, GIUK gap, or beyond would face huge problems:
1. NATO tracks all Russian submarines.
2. NATO has strong ASW forces - including shipborne (including carrierborne) ASW helicopters that act on conjunction with surface warships with long range sonar and coordinated with NATO submarines and MPA.
3. Any attempt to use aircraft against helicopters or MPA will result in a quick response from the carrier's jets.
4. As submarines have limited means to detect targets at long range, the cruise missiles will depend on targeting platforms - possibly aircraft. In the Cold War dealing with Bears performing this role was a job for carrier based aircraft, and the primary role for the Royal Navy's Sea Harrier. It was the need for ASW helicopters operations around the the clock, and to deal with the Bears doing reconnaissance and targeting, that kept the Royal Navy in the carrier game and led to the Invincible class CVS/Sea King/Sea Harrier combination.
5. Back in the 1970s it was expected that the fighters (certainly the USN F-14 Tomcat, less so the Sea Harrier FRS1 with only Sidewinder) would be able to splashed missiles. Not so long ago a USN F/A-18E/F Super Hornet proved this in the Red Sea, and an Israeli F-35I did so not too long before that. The increased missile load and sensor capabilities of today's aircraft means they can counter a salvo of missiles.
6. A submarine cannot control the airspace, and therefore a group of submarines cannot perform a sea control role in the same way as a carrier group.
7. It is interesting that the quoted Russian news article referred to a target simulating a detachment of landing ships of a mock enemy. This actually reminds us of the need for sea control, and the need for carriers to protect amphibious forces. Submarine launched anti ship missiles do not provide an anti carrier argument, they provide more justification for the carrier and carrier group.
On the other side of the World, the US Navy seems to have quietly developed a very long range air to air missile:
AIM-174 Super Hornet-Launched Variant Of SM-6 Missile Breaks Cover In Hawaii - The War Zone
The SM-6 is also ‘networked’ with the ability to receive critical data from an array of platforms that can provide remote targeting that is not organic to the missile’s launch platform. In this sense, it would be able to exploit the various benefits of the Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air concept, or NIFC-CA, which is increasingly bringing together the complementary capabilities of platforms such as the F-35 stealth fighter, E-2D Advanced Hawkeye radar plane, Aegis-equipped warships, and weapons like the SM-6. For example, this architecture should allow a Super Hornet to use the AIM-174B to engage targets that are beyond the range of its own radar as well as target sets that it cannot otherwise handle, like ballistic missiles.
As an air-to-air weapon, the AIM-174B would provide the Super Hornet with the ability to engage a wide variety of aerial threats at distances of over hundreds of miles, a significant advantage over the current AIM-120 AMRAAM and likely also beyond the range of the still-in-development AIM-260 JATM. Air launch at speed and altitude by a fighter means it will have significantly greater range and enhanced kinematics over the surface-launched variant, although it does not have the booster that the standard SM-6 utilizes. The surface-launched SM-6’s range is currently thought to be around 230 miles, but this depends on many factors, including the mode in which it is being used.
Such a long-range missile would be a huge advantage considering China is now fielding its own very long-range air-to-air missiles. Using AIM-174B against airborne early warning, reconnaissance, maritime patrol, aerial refueling, and bomber/cruise missile carrier aircraft at extreme ranges would be a major enhancement in the Navy’s air combat capabilities and a huge threat to these lumbering enemy aircraft. This would be one key way the U.S. could help counter a portion of China’s looming anti-access infrastructure...
It is already operational.
U.S. Navy Confirms SM-6 Air Launched Configuration Is ‘Operationally Deployed’ - Naval News
I suspect that there is a clever person at the US Naval Post Graduate School working on mathematical methods and software to determine the optimal balance between fighters with very long range AAMs, and ones carrying the maximum number of Sidewinder/AMRAAM for magazine depth.
Before you ask, yes I have copied and pasted from Late 1970s US Congress Report - The US Sea Control Mission (carriers needed in the Atlantic for Air Defence and ASW - both then and today) on another site. We are once again in an era of state versus state hostility, contested seas and maritime airspace, and as the Houthis show, conventional and hybrid capabilities in the hands of state sponsored proxies.
Joined: Jul 2008
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 2,978
Likes: 175
From: Australia OZ
https://www.commsmuseum.co.uk/signallamps.htm & https://www.commsmuseum.co.uk/tactical/lights/aldis.jpg
"...These signal lights give a peak candle power of 150,000 with a divergence of 6 degrees. A range of 5 miles in bright sunlight in good weather may be expected in home waters...."
OUTTA DIS Worlde data transmission aslo: [somewhere there is a more intelligible explanation (compared to link below) of transmitting data via a powerful light source: https://fabacademy.org/archives/2011...ons/index.html
Some more links - the one I have in mind cannot be found at the moment:
https://allhands.navy.mil/Stories/Di...n-the-us-navy/
&
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proce...h-another-look
"...These signal lights give a peak candle power of 150,000 with a divergence of 6 degrees. A range of 5 miles in bright sunlight in good weather may be expected in home waters...."
OUTTA DIS Worlde data transmission aslo: [somewhere there is a more intelligible explanation (compared to link below) of transmitting data via a powerful light source: https://fabacademy.org/archives/2011...ons/index.html
Some more links - the one I have in mind cannot be found at the moment:
https://allhands.navy.mil/Stories/Di...n-the-us-navy/
&
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proce...h-another-look
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 8th July 2024 at 06:09. Reason: weird link
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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From: Peripatetic
OUTTA DIS Worlde data transmission aslo: [somewhere there is a more intelligible explanation (compared to link below) of transmitting data via a powerful light source
😎😎😎😎
Joined: Jul 2008
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 2,978
Likes: 175
From: Australia OZ
Thanks. There is another 'experimental device' that is more human friendly to send light data between ships, still looking for it. <sigh> Here is one example of low volume signal lamp data transfer with decoder - even for furriners.
Office of Naval Research Set to Upgrade the 200-Year-Old Signal Lamp for Modern Stealth Communication (usni.org)
Text Tech: Can Navy Vessels Use Shipboard Signal Lamps for Text Messaging? > United States Navy > News Stories
GIF:
Office of Naval Research Set to Upgrade the 200-Year-Old Signal Lamp for Modern Stealth Communication (usni.org)
Text Tech: Can Navy Vessels Use Shipboard Signal Lamps for Text Messaging? > United States Navy > News Stories
GIF:
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 8th July 2024 at 07:53. Reason: +gif +url
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 1,978
Likes: 376
From: Hampshire
Anvil Point was in Mombasa on 4 July and is on her way to Cape Town - took me even less time time than Tom Sharpe's colleague to determine that.
WEBF - I presume you were referring to the containerized Lightweight Seawolf that was proposed post Op Corporate as a possible fitment for merchant ships/RFAs, like the fire and forget version, GWS-27, it came to nothing, apparently the late Raymond Lygo referred to it in his autobiography.
SpazSinbad - I think all dis technology is good idea and appears to be good value; makes me fee a dinosaur remembering being tested on Morse with a light flashing through the drizzle on a typical grey Dartmouth winter's day.
WEBF - I presume you were referring to the containerized Lightweight Seawolf that was proposed post Op Corporate as a possible fitment for merchant ships/RFAs, like the fire and forget version, GWS-27, it came to nothing, apparently the late Raymond Lygo referred to it in his autobiography.
SpazSinbad - I think all dis technology is good idea and appears to be good value; makes me fee a dinosaur remembering being tested on Morse with a light flashing through the drizzle on a typical grey Dartmouth winter's day.
Joined: Jan 2008
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Posts: 3,346
Likes: 2,119
From: Glorious Devon
Anvil Point was in Mombasa on 4 July and is on her way to Cape Town - took me even less time time than Tom Sharpe's colleague to determine that.
WEBF - I presume you were referring to the containerized Lightweight Seawolf that was proposed post Op Corporate as a possible fitment for merchant ships/RFAs, like the fire and forget version, GWS-27, it came to nothing, apparently the late Raymond Lygo referred to it in his autobiography.
SpazSinbad - I think all dis technology is good idea and appears to be good value; makes me fee a dinosaur remembering being tested on Morse with a light flashing through the drizzle on a typical grey Dartmouth winter's day.
WEBF - I presume you were referring to the containerized Lightweight Seawolf that was proposed post Op Corporate as a possible fitment for merchant ships/RFAs, like the fire and forget version, GWS-27, it came to nothing, apparently the late Raymond Lygo referred to it in his autobiography.
SpazSinbad - I think all dis technology is good idea and appears to be good value; makes me fee a dinosaur remembering being tested on Morse with a light flashing through the drizzle on a typical grey Dartmouth winter's day.