Future Carrier (Including Costs)
Suspicion breeds confidence
Wiki makes mention of trials on Hermes in 69/70 however I suspect someone confused that with Eagle. I am not aware of Hermes ever launching or trapping an F4. An F18 is smaller and lighter than an F4 and would have been viable on Hermes, but came into US service in 1983 - 10 years after Hermes lost her cats.
Happy Trafalgar Day !
Happy Trafalgar Day !
Thread Starter
Late 1970s US Congress Report - The US Sea Control Mission (carriers needed in the Atlantic)
1991 was really at the tail end of the Cold War, but once again we need to think about the security of the Euro Atlantic area as well as the Middle East and Indo Pacific,
Times do indeed change - but the number of potentially hostile nations with submarines has increased, and the carrier remains a way of deploying multiple ASW helicopters in a way that allows for coordination without major hassles. The nature of towed array sonar has changed, which makes the ASW helicopter more relevant than before, and possibly it means the same level of ASW protection needs less helicopters as random dipping should no longer be needed. American carriers still conduct ASW with ASW helicopters, and so do ours, and this may be in defence of crisis response shipping or amphibious forces.
Originally Posted by Not_a_boffin
Touch n' go F4B from Ranger, doesn't suggest they actually trapped. Includes the comment that the aircrew found her deck "terrifyingly small". Proves the deck was strong enough (I hope!) - I think the issue was more likely to be "long" traps, where the aircraft misses the target wire and ends up trapping the last wire. Run-out on that for an aircraft bringing anything back (assuming ditch fuel for minimum trap weight), particularly if off-centre would have been "interesting". Particularly with Hermes' forward lift as part of that area. It's actually a similar issue to that which led to CdG having the deck edge extension fitted to accommodate the E2.
While the studies said the F4 "could" operate from Hermes, I suspect the operational window would have been tiny. You'd need max chat to get the most WoD and in any sort of seaway, a relatively small short ship like Hermes is going to have a lot of movement at both the rounddown and the touchdown point, which even with a 4 degree glideslope is going to result in a lot of long traps or bolters.
So while the cats probably had enough oomph, trapping on an operational (as opposed to trials) basis would have been very tricky.
While the studies said the F4 "could" operate from Hermes, I suspect the operational window would have been tiny. You'd need max chat to get the most WoD and in any sort of seaway, a relatively small short ship like Hermes is going to have a lot of movement at both the rounddown and the touchdown point, which even with a 4 degree glideslope is going to result in a lot of long traps or bolters.
So while the cats probably had enough oomph, trapping on an operational (as opposed to trials) basis would have been very tricky.
Originally Posted by Navaleye
Wiki makes mention of trials on Hermes in 69/70 however I suspect someone confused that with Eagle. I am not aware of Hermes ever launching or trapping an F4. An F18 is smaller and lighter than an F4 and would have been viable on Hermes, but came into US service in 1983 - 10 years after Hermes lost her cats.
Happy Trafalgar Day !
Happy Trafalgar Day !
A study of Nelson's battles highlights a number of themes very relevant today. Training of the crews on the gun deck to achieve a high firing rate, the Captains of different ships have a plan to work to, communications, and commanders understanding the strengths and weakness of technology. Cannon of that time were inaccurate at range, hence the preference for close range shots. This then drove the need to train the gun crews to fire and reload rapidly. He also took an interest in the welfare of his men.
Happy Trafalgar Day to you too.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 21st Oct 2021 at 21:01.
Thread Starter
Now what was I saying about 'Carrier Strike' or 'Attack Carrier' not meaning that every sortie is offensive, and about air defence and ASW being on the agenda (and flying programme)?
30 live interceptions of armed Russian jets during carrier group aircraft operations in the Mediterranean
On 12th June two F-35 Jets flying from HMS Queen Elizabeth took off to conduct missions against Daesh in Syria and Iraq. This was the first strike mission from a Royal Navy vessel since the operations in Libya during 2011. In a two-week period, there were 30 live intercepts of armed Russian fighter and bomber aircraft. Sukhois and Migs came within visual range of aircraft flying from the ship. Moorhouse added that two jets were held at readiness on deck during this period, ready to respond to any Russian air incursions or overlights. The critical importance for the fleet to have its own organic air cover available for all kinds of naval operations is often overlooked as the main focus is on the strike element of carrier capability.
In the underwater domain, the Commodore noted that the carrier-based Merlin Mk2 ASW helicopters worked with his frigates (and probably with supporting SSN, HMS Ambush) to “locate and fix the Russian submarines deployed to welcome us”.
30 live interceptions of armed Russian jets during carrier group aircraft operations in the Mediterranean
On 12th June two F-35 Jets flying from HMS Queen Elizabeth took off to conduct missions against Daesh in Syria and Iraq. This was the first strike mission from a Royal Navy vessel since the operations in Libya during 2011. In a two-week period, there were 30 live intercepts of armed Russian fighter and bomber aircraft. Sukhois and Migs came within visual range of aircraft flying from the ship. Moorhouse added that two jets were held at readiness on deck during this period, ready to respond to any Russian air incursions or overlights. The critical importance for the fleet to have its own organic air cover available for all kinds of naval operations is often overlooked as the main focus is on the strike element of carrier capability.
In the underwater domain, the Commodore noted that the carrier-based Merlin Mk2 ASW helicopters worked with his frigates (and probably with supporting SSN, HMS Ambush) to “locate and fix the Russian submarines deployed to welcome us”.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 24th Oct 2021 at 08:38.
Chinese H-6 bomber (updated Badger design mostly only 20+ years old) with a hypersonic "carrier killer" missile now:
The Unusual Carrier Killer Capability Of The Chinese Navy’s Strategic Bomber - Naval News
The Unusual Carrier Killer Capability Of The Chinese Navy’s Strategic Bomber - Naval News
Thread Starter
Chinese H-6 bomber (updated Badger design mostly only 20+ years old) with a hypersonic "carrier killer" missile now:
The Unusual Carrier Killer Capability Of The Chinese Navy’s Strategic Bomber - Naval News
The Unusual Carrier Killer Capability Of The Chinese Navy’s Strategic Bomber - Naval News
For example there seems to be a belief that submarines are undetectable and cannot be countered.
Is it me or does it sound like that Daily Express article was written with a crayon? What is 'sonar radar' for instance? It also failed to explain the way the frigates use towed array sonar to cue to dipping sonar equipped helicopters. A significant area of sea can be sanitised this way, but you need multiple helicopters which makes ASW a carrier role.
Sorry for the delay in posting but I only saw the video yesterday, and I do not read the Express.
"Is it me or does it sound like that Daily Expressarticle was written with a crayon? What is 'sonar radar' for instance? It also failed to explain the way the frigates use towed array sonar to cue to dipping sonar equipped helicopters"
Its a UK Daily newspaper for heavens sake - they know their readers can just about read & write and don't want long words or sentences over a line long. They want to frighten people - as that always sells more newspapers - but about something that won't affect them today. The FT or the Economist might discuss sonar tactics in a simplified manner but the dailies?????
Its a UK Daily newspaper for heavens sake - they know their readers can just about read & write and don't want long words or sentences over a line long. They want to frighten people - as that always sells more newspapers - but about something that won't affect them today. The FT or the Economist might discuss sonar tactics in a simplified manner but the dailies?????
Thread Starter
Too true - but they could have said 'frigates and helicopters'. I also think that 'sonar radar' is just taking dumbing down to a new level. When speaking in the following video, the Commodore did say 'frigates and helicopters' were able to keep tabs on Chinese submarines, without feeling the need to explain the physics at play.
This is also interesting - I still find it amazing seeing the F-35B land so smoothly compared to Sea Harrier/Harrier.
This third video from the last few days is also interesting - not only are attacks in support of the Army mentioned but the Defence Secretary mentions amphibious capability. If you look at the map of where HMS Queen Elizabeth and her group have been thus far, it appears that they made a quick detour to the East coast of Africa. In the last week or two one of the Point class sealift vessels (operated on behalf of the MOD) was in that area. Was this an opportunity to exercise and demonstrate providing defence to crisis response shipping?
This is also interesting - I still find it amazing seeing the F-35B land so smoothly compared to Sea Harrier/Harrier.
This third video from the last few days is also interesting - not only are attacks in support of the Army mentioned but the Defence Secretary mentions amphibious capability. If you look at the map of where HMS Queen Elizabeth and her group have been thus far, it appears that they made a quick detour to the East coast of Africa. In the last week or two one of the Point class sealift vessels (operated on behalf of the MOD) was in that area. Was this an opportunity to exercise and demonstrate providing defence to crisis response shipping?
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 7th Nov 2021 at 12:10.
Thread Starter
Something interesting for this week: Drones could ‘allow’ Britain to create a second carrier air wing - UK Defence Journal
According to an official Royal Navy publication, titled Future Maritime Aviation Force, which was originally published in December 2020, the Royal Navy aims to replace its helicopter-based airborne early warning (AEW) platform, the Merlin HM2 Crowsnest, with a fixed-wing UAV, currently known as Vixen, by 2030.
In other words, they will free up the ASW aircraft to concentrate on ASW.
The UK is also still committed to acquiring more than 58 F-35B Lightnings.
According to an official Royal Navy publication, titled Future Maritime Aviation Force, which was originally published in December 2020, the Royal Navy aims to replace its helicopter-based airborne early warning (AEW) platform, the Merlin HM2 Crowsnest, with a fixed-wing UAV, currently known as Vixen, by 2030.
In other words, they will free up the ASW aircraft to concentrate on ASW.
The UK is also still committed to acquiring more than 58 F-35B Lightnings.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 4th Dec 2021 at 10:13.
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https://news.usni.org/2021/11/09/sec...chinese-desert
Chinese has built a land based US carrier on rails as a range target, one doubts the US would sail in a straight line for you, however.
Chinese has built a land based US carrier on rails as a range target, one doubts the US would sail in a straight line for you, however.
https://news.usni.org/2021/11/09/sec...chinese-desert
Chinese has built a land based US carrier on rails as a range target, one doubts the US would sail in a straight line for you, however.
Chinese has built a land based US carrier on rails as a range target, one doubts the US would sail in a straight line for you, however.
Presumably it would suffice to get a terminal homing weapon within some large basket 50-100 miles out to achieve a hit.
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By Google Translate: 21 Nov 2021 "...[Ending today] an important international activity that involved the Italian naval group led by the Cavour aircraft carrier, operating with Navy and Air Force F-35B aircraft, and a British naval group led by the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier , also operating with F-35Bs. This was reported today in a press release from the Ministry of Defense....
...In the interaction with the British aircraft carrier, thanks to the high level of interoperability achieved, two Italian F-35Bs are docked on the Queen Elizabeth and at the same time two US Marine Corps F-35Bs, embarked on the English ship, are docked on the Italian aircraft carrier Cavour. The interaction also saw further training in flight with the involvement of F-35Bs that took off from the two aircraft carriers, which carried out a demanding air combat mission. In addition to the success of the joint activities carried out by the Navy and Air Force aircraft on board Nave Cavour, today's interaction with the British aircraft carrier group has made it possible to successfully test the joint technical-operational procedures aimed at achieving full interoperability between the two Marines...." 21 Nov 2021: https://www.agenzianova.com/a/619a88...nautica/linked
...In the interaction with the British aircraft carrier, thanks to the high level of interoperability achieved, two Italian F-35Bs are docked on the Queen Elizabeth and at the same time two US Marine Corps F-35Bs, embarked on the English ship, are docked on the Italian aircraft carrier Cavour. The interaction also saw further training in flight with the involvement of F-35Bs that took off from the two aircraft carriers, which carried out a demanding air combat mission. In addition to the success of the joint activities carried out by the Navy and Air Force aircraft on board Nave Cavour, today's interaction with the British aircraft carrier group has made it possible to successfully test the joint technical-operational procedures aimed at achieving full interoperability between the two Marines...." 21 Nov 2021: https://www.agenzianova.com/a/619a88...nautica/linked
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 21st Nov 2021 at 19:01. Reason: googie transrate