Future Carrier (Including Costs)
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From: Devon
Now what was I saying about 'Carrier Strike' or 'Attack Carrier' not meaning that every sortie is offensive, and about air defence and ASW being on the agenda (and flying programme)?
30 live interceptions of armed Russian jets during carrier group aircraft operations in the Mediterranean
On 12th June two F-35 Jets flying from HMS Queen Elizabeth took off to conduct missions against Daesh in Syria and Iraq. This was the first strike mission from a Royal Navy vessel since the operations in Libya during 2011. In a two-week period, there were 30 live intercepts of armed Russian fighter and bomber aircraft. Sukhois and Migs came within visual range of aircraft flying from the ship. Moorhouse added that two jets were held at readiness on deck during this period, ready to respond to any Russian air incursions or overlights. The critical importance for the fleet to have its own organic air cover available for all kinds of naval operations is often overlooked as the main focus is on the strike element of carrier capability.
In the underwater domain, the Commodore noted that the carrier-based Merlin Mk2 ASW helicopters worked with his frigates (and probably with supporting SSN, HMS Ambush) to “locate and fix the Russian submarines deployed to welcome us”.
30 live interceptions of armed Russian jets during carrier group aircraft operations in the Mediterranean
On 12th June two F-35 Jets flying from HMS Queen Elizabeth took off to conduct missions against Daesh in Syria and Iraq. This was the first strike mission from a Royal Navy vessel since the operations in Libya during 2011. In a two-week period, there were 30 live intercepts of armed Russian fighter and bomber aircraft. Sukhois and Migs came within visual range of aircraft flying from the ship. Moorhouse added that two jets were held at readiness on deck during this period, ready to respond to any Russian air incursions or overlights. The critical importance for the fleet to have its own organic air cover available for all kinds of naval operations is often overlooked as the main focus is on the strike element of carrier capability.
In the underwater domain, the Commodore noted that the carrier-based Merlin Mk2 ASW helicopters worked with his frigates (and probably with supporting SSN, HMS Ambush) to “locate and fix the Russian submarines deployed to welcome us”.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 24th October 2021 at 08:38.
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From: Nevada, USA
Chinese H-6 bomber (updated Badger design mostly only 20+ years old) with a hypersonic "carrier killer" missile now:
The Unusual Carrier Killer Capability Of The Chinese Navy’s Strategic Bomber - Naval News
The Unusual Carrier Killer Capability Of The Chinese Navy’s Strategic Bomber - Naval News
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From: Devon
Chinese H-6 bomber (updated Badger design mostly only 20+ years old) with a hypersonic "carrier killer" missile now:
The Unusual Carrier Killer Capability Of The Chinese Navy’s Strategic Bomber - Naval News
The Unusual Carrier Killer Capability Of The Chinese Navy’s Strategic Bomber - Naval News
For example there seems to be a belief that submarines are undetectable and cannot be countered.
Is it me or does it sound like that Daily Express article was written with a crayon? What is 'sonar radar' for instance? It also failed to explain the way the frigates use towed array sonar to cue to dipping sonar equipped helicopters. A significant area of sea can be sanitised this way, but you need multiple helicopters which makes ASW a carrier role.
Sorry for the delay in posting but I only saw the video yesterday, and I do not read the Express.
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From: Ferrara
"Is it me or does it sound like that Daily Expressarticle was written with a crayon? What is 'sonar radar' for instance? It also failed to explain the way the frigates use towed array sonar to cue to dipping sonar equipped helicopters"
Its a UK Daily newspaper for heavens sake - they know their readers can just about read & write and don't want long words or sentences over a line long. They want to frighten people - as that always sells more newspapers - but about something that won't affect them today. The FT or the Economist might discuss sonar tactics in a simplified manner but the dailies?????
Its a UK Daily newspaper for heavens sake - they know their readers can just about read & write and don't want long words or sentences over a line long. They want to frighten people - as that always sells more newspapers - but about something that won't affect them today. The FT or the Economist might discuss sonar tactics in a simplified manner but the dailies?????
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From: Devon
Too true - but they could have said 'frigates and helicopters'. I also think that 'sonar radar' is just taking dumbing down to a new level. When speaking in the following video, the Commodore did say 'frigates and helicopters' were able to keep tabs on Chinese submarines, without feeling the need to explain the physics at play.
This is also interesting - I still find it amazing seeing the F-35B land so smoothly compared to Sea Harrier/Harrier.
This third video from the last few days is also interesting - not only are attacks in support of the Army mentioned but the Defence Secretary mentions amphibious capability. If you look at the map of where HMS Queen Elizabeth and her group have been thus far, it appears that they made a quick detour to the East coast of Africa. In the last week or two one of the Point class sealift vessels (operated on behalf of the MOD) was in that area. Was this an opportunity to exercise and demonstrate providing defence to crisis response shipping?
This is also interesting - I still find it amazing seeing the F-35B land so smoothly compared to Sea Harrier/Harrier.
This third video from the last few days is also interesting - not only are attacks in support of the Army mentioned but the Defence Secretary mentions amphibious capability. If you look at the map of where HMS Queen Elizabeth and her group have been thus far, it appears that they made a quick detour to the East coast of Africa. In the last week or two one of the Point class sealift vessels (operated on behalf of the MOD) was in that area. Was this an opportunity to exercise and demonstrate providing defence to crisis response shipping?
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 7th November 2021 at 12:10.
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From: Devon
Something interesting for this week: Drones could ‘allow’ Britain to create a second carrier air wing - UK Defence Journal
According to an official Royal Navy publication, titled Future Maritime Aviation Force, which was originally published in December 2020, the Royal Navy aims to replace its helicopter-based airborne early warning (AEW) platform, the Merlin HM2 Crowsnest, with a fixed-wing UAV, currently known as Vixen, by 2030.
In other words, they will free up the ASW aircraft to concentrate on ASW.
The UK is also still committed to acquiring more than 58 F-35B Lightnings.
According to an official Royal Navy publication, titled Future Maritime Aviation Force, which was originally published in December 2020, the Royal Navy aims to replace its helicopter-based airborne early warning (AEW) platform, the Merlin HM2 Crowsnest, with a fixed-wing UAV, currently known as Vixen, by 2030.
In other words, they will free up the ASW aircraft to concentrate on ASW.
The UK is also still committed to acquiring more than 58 F-35B Lightnings.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 4th December 2021 at 10:13.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
https://news.usni.org/2021/11/09/sec...chinese-desert
Chinese has built a land based US carrier on rails as a range target, one doubts the US would sail in a straight line for you, however.
Chinese has built a land based US carrier on rails as a range target, one doubts the US would sail in a straight line for you, however.
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From: NEW YORK
https://news.usni.org/2021/11/09/sec...chinese-desert
Chinese has built a land based US carrier on rails as a range target, one doubts the US would sail in a straight line for you, however.
Chinese has built a land based US carrier on rails as a range target, one doubts the US would sail in a straight line for you, however.
Presumably it would suffice to get a terminal homing weapon within some large basket 50-100 miles out to achieve a hit.
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From: Australia OZ
By Google Translate: 21 Nov 2021 "...[Ending today] an important international activity that involved the Italian naval group led by the Cavour aircraft carrier, operating with Navy and Air Force F-35B aircraft, and a British naval group led by the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier , also operating with F-35Bs. This was reported today in a press release from the Ministry of Defense....
...In the interaction with the British aircraft carrier, thanks to the high level of interoperability achieved, two Italian F-35Bs are docked on the Queen Elizabeth and at the same time two US Marine Corps F-35Bs, embarked on the English ship, are docked on the Italian aircraft carrier Cavour. The interaction also saw further training in flight with the involvement of F-35Bs that took off from the two aircraft carriers, which carried out a demanding air combat mission. In addition to the success of the joint activities carried out by the Navy and Air Force aircraft on board Nave Cavour, today's interaction with the British aircraft carrier group has made it possible to successfully test the joint technical-operational procedures aimed at achieving full interoperability between the two Marines...." 21 Nov 2021: https://www.agenzianova.com/a/619a88...nautica/linked
...In the interaction with the British aircraft carrier, thanks to the high level of interoperability achieved, two Italian F-35Bs are docked on the Queen Elizabeth and at the same time two US Marine Corps F-35Bs, embarked on the English ship, are docked on the Italian aircraft carrier Cavour. The interaction also saw further training in flight with the involvement of F-35Bs that took off from the two aircraft carriers, which carried out a demanding air combat mission. In addition to the success of the joint activities carried out by the Navy and Air Force aircraft on board Nave Cavour, today's interaction with the British aircraft carrier group has made it possible to successfully test the joint technical-operational procedures aimed at achieving full interoperability between the two Marines...." 21 Nov 2021: https://www.agenzianova.com/a/619a88...nautica/linked
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 21st November 2021 at 19:01. Reason: googie transrate
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From: Hampshire
I was suprised the earlier cross-decking with the USS Essex hasn't been mentioned, but maybe Junglies and our allies exercises don't interest other parties.
Image 17 of 17 VMFA-211 and the 11th MEU Conduct Cross-Deck Operations [Image 17 of 17], by 1LT Zachary Bodner, 3 MAW 08nov2021 "The appearance of U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) visual information does not imply or constitute DoD endorsement."
ARABIAN SEA -- Marine Fighter Attack Squadron (VMFA) 211 cross-decked F-35B Lightning IIs from HMS Queen Elizabeth to the amphibious assault ship USS Essex (LHD 2), Nov. 8, 2021.
U.S. Marines from “The Wake Island Avengers” were transported by a Royal Navy Merlin MK IV to the Essex to recover and refuel the F-35Bs, before launching them on mission ultimately to return to Queen Elizabeth. This evolution demonstrated the strategic importance of F-35 capable allied carriers, as well as the interoperability the F-35B facilitates.
“The fact the U.S. and the U.K. can operate their 5th-generation jets and other aircraft from the same deck at the same time is a huge strategic advantage for both countries,” said Royal Navy Commodore Steve Moorhouse, Commander of the U.K. CSG. “It is a compliment that the U.S. is comfortable with the U.K. Carrier Strike Group commanding the largest U.S. 5th generation air wing afloat today.”
Simultaneously, aircraft attached to Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron (VMM) 165 (Reinforced), 11th Marine Expeditionary Unit, landed on Queen Elizabeth demonstrating increased interoperability, information sharing, and expanded access across the region as allies, as well as credible and capable forces operating in the U.S. 5th Fleet area of operations.
(VMFA-211 and the 11th MEU Conduct Cross-Deck Operations, by 1LT Zachary Bodner, 3 MAW)
U.S. Marines from “The Wake Island Avengers” were transported by a Royal Navy Merlin MK IV to the Essex to recover and refuel the F-35Bs, before launching them on mission ultimately to return to Queen Elizabeth. This evolution demonstrated the strategic importance of F-35 capable allied carriers, as well as the interoperability the F-35B facilitates.
“The fact the U.S. and the U.K. can operate their 5th-generation jets and other aircraft from the same deck at the same time is a huge strategic advantage for both countries,” said Royal Navy Commodore Steve Moorhouse, Commander of the U.K. CSG. “It is a compliment that the U.S. is comfortable with the U.K. Carrier Strike Group commanding the largest U.S. 5th generation air wing afloat today.”
Simultaneously, aircraft attached to Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron (VMM) 165 (Reinforced), 11th Marine Expeditionary Unit, landed on Queen Elizabeth demonstrating increased interoperability, information sharing, and expanded access across the region as allies, as well as credible and capable forces operating in the U.S. 5th Fleet area of operations.
(VMFA-211 and the 11th MEU Conduct Cross-Deck Operations, by 1LT Zachary Bodner, 3 MAW)
Image 17 of 17 VMFA-211 and the 11th MEU Conduct Cross-Deck Operations [Image 17 of 17], by 1LT Zachary Bodner, 3 MAW 08nov2021 "The appearance of U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) visual information does not imply or constitute DoD endorsement."
Last edited by SLXOwft; 25th November 2021 at 11:17.
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From: Australia OZ
U.K. Aircraft Carrier, Italian Navy Carrier Cross-Deck F-35Bs in Mediterranean 24 Nov 2021 Dzirhan Mahadzir
"...VFMA 211 also completed its embarkation on Queen Elizabeth, with the squadron departing today for Naval Station Rota, Spain, for the first leg of the voyage home.... ...The U.K. Royal Air Force also announced today that the first F-35B from 617 landed at RAF Marham in the U.K...."
https://news.usni.org/2021/11/24/u-k...-mediterranean
"...VFMA 211 also completed its embarkation on Queen Elizabeth, with the squadron departing today for Naval Station Rota, Spain, for the first leg of the voyage home.... ...The U.K. Royal Air Force also announced today that the first F-35B from 617 landed at RAF Marham in the U.K...."
https://news.usni.org/2021/11/24/u-k...-mediterranean
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From: Australia OZ
CSG21
Striking back Dec 2021 Richard Scott [4 page PDF of article attached]
"The first operational test of the UK’s reconstituted carrier strike capability has been a broad success, with its embarked F-35Bs performing in combat and working alongside US Marine Corps assets....
...Regenerating powers
Rebuilding and regenerating carrier capability has demanded that the RN and RAF put old enmities to one side. It has also hinged on the assistance provided by key allies, acknowledges Connell.
“The French have been a part of that, yes, but particularly the US Navy and the US Marine Corps [USMC]. The extent to which our partners across the Atlantic have helped us on this journey has been incredible,” he says.
Reflecting the strength of this relationship, Queen Elizabeth’s air group for CSG21 has included 10 F-35Bs from the Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 211 (VMFA- 211) alongside eight jets from the RAF’s 617 Sqn.
While the initial move to bring a USMC squadron on board stemmed primarily from the slow ramp-up of the UK’s own Lightning Force, it has at the same time given the RN and the RAF a golden opportunity to demonstrate what levels of interoperability and interchangeability can be achieved with their US partners.
“VMFA-211 has not just embarked as an element of tokenism,” Connell emphasises. “It’s a front line, combat-ready US Marine Corps F-35 squadron fully integrated with the strike group. And we’ve been testing the bounds of that day in, day out. Their energy and focus, and the fact that they’re a couple of years ahead of us with the aircraft, has undoubtedly helped us.”....
...“So we were also having to maintain a ready alert on the deck to counter daily probing from the Russian air force coming out to the carrier. Over 30 live intercepts of armed Russian fighter and bomber aircraft were conducted in just over two weeks.
“Responding to quick alert like that is something the Royal Navy hasn’t done with aircraft carriers for a generation. So that’s meant understanding the readiness state that you have to maintain so you can get the jets off at sufficient time to ensure you can intercept an incoming aircraft at appropriate range.”...
...Units and air wings undertook both day and night flying; a number of anti-submarine/anti-surface warfare activities were completed; and flight operations were conducted from Queen Elizabeth concurrent with replenishment at sea operations.
“We were flying fixed-wing almost continuously through the 24-hour period, which is something the US doesn’t do – they surge for 15-hour, maybe 18- hour periods, whereas we were able to keep flying over 24 hours, fixed and rotary-wing,” says Moorhouse. “It really allowed us to show the unique flexibility and agility of Queen Elizabeth-class aviation.
“For example, flying fixed-wing while replenishing is really quite straightforward for us once you’ve got everyone trained and good to go. And we don’t need much wind [over the deck] to launch the jets, even at full weights in hot conditions.
“We are clearly different to an American CVN [nuclear-powered carrier],” he adds. “We don’t have catapults and arrestor gear, we’re not in the same scale in terms of air wing size, and the F-35B does not have the same legs.
“But [Queen Elizabeth] offers something completely different in its agility to get aircraft up and off. A CVN is incredibly impressive, but it is operated very differently and simply does not have the same flexibility.”...
...“With the numbers that we have, and if you can tailor your flying rates sensibly, you can broadly speaking have 75% of the aircraft available in any one day, and the rest going through routine maintenance. So that mass gives you the flexibility, and then it’s just ensuring you have that regular pattern of stores delivery.”...
Flight International December 2021
"The first operational test of the UK’s reconstituted carrier strike capability has been a broad success, with its embarked F-35Bs performing in combat and working alongside US Marine Corps assets....
...Regenerating powers
Rebuilding and regenerating carrier capability has demanded that the RN and RAF put old enmities to one side. It has also hinged on the assistance provided by key allies, acknowledges Connell.
“The French have been a part of that, yes, but particularly the US Navy and the US Marine Corps [USMC]. The extent to which our partners across the Atlantic have helped us on this journey has been incredible,” he says.
Reflecting the strength of this relationship, Queen Elizabeth’s air group for CSG21 has included 10 F-35Bs from the Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 211 (VMFA- 211) alongside eight jets from the RAF’s 617 Sqn.
While the initial move to bring a USMC squadron on board stemmed primarily from the slow ramp-up of the UK’s own Lightning Force, it has at the same time given the RN and the RAF a golden opportunity to demonstrate what levels of interoperability and interchangeability can be achieved with their US partners.
“VMFA-211 has not just embarked as an element of tokenism,” Connell emphasises. “It’s a front line, combat-ready US Marine Corps F-35 squadron fully integrated with the strike group. And we’ve been testing the bounds of that day in, day out. Their energy and focus, and the fact that they’re a couple of years ahead of us with the aircraft, has undoubtedly helped us.”....
...“So we were also having to maintain a ready alert on the deck to counter daily probing from the Russian air force coming out to the carrier. Over 30 live intercepts of armed Russian fighter and bomber aircraft were conducted in just over two weeks.
“Responding to quick alert like that is something the Royal Navy hasn’t done with aircraft carriers for a generation. So that’s meant understanding the readiness state that you have to maintain so you can get the jets off at sufficient time to ensure you can intercept an incoming aircraft at appropriate range.”...
...Units and air wings undertook both day and night flying; a number of anti-submarine/anti-surface warfare activities were completed; and flight operations were conducted from Queen Elizabeth concurrent with replenishment at sea operations.
“We were flying fixed-wing almost continuously through the 24-hour period, which is something the US doesn’t do – they surge for 15-hour, maybe 18- hour periods, whereas we were able to keep flying over 24 hours, fixed and rotary-wing,” says Moorhouse. “It really allowed us to show the unique flexibility and agility of Queen Elizabeth-class aviation.
“For example, flying fixed-wing while replenishing is really quite straightforward for us once you’ve got everyone trained and good to go. And we don’t need much wind [over the deck] to launch the jets, even at full weights in hot conditions.
“We are clearly different to an American CVN [nuclear-powered carrier],” he adds. “We don’t have catapults and arrestor gear, we’re not in the same scale in terms of air wing size, and the F-35B does not have the same legs.
“But [Queen Elizabeth] offers something completely different in its agility to get aircraft up and off. A CVN is incredibly impressive, but it is operated very differently and simply does not have the same flexibility.”...
...“With the numbers that we have, and if you can tailor your flying rates sensibly, you can broadly speaking have 75% of the aircraft available in any one day, and the rest going through routine maintenance. So that mass gives you the flexibility, and then it’s just ensuring you have that regular pattern of stores delivery.”...
Flight International December 2021
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 26th November 2021 at 01:06. Reason: format
Thread Starter
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From: Devon
Here is a recording of the late Professor Eric Grove giving a talk at the International Institute of Strategic Studies regarding NATO naval planning in the 1980s.
Professor Grove mentions carriers a lot, in terms of protecting shipping and amphibious forces. At 50:15 he suggests that the thing hostile submarine captains dread most of all is the dipping sonar - and that an airborne radar flooding an area will keep the hostile submarines down. He then describes witness an ASW exercise in which a number of NATO submarines transmitted Soviet levels of noise, and everyone was covered by either an ASW helicopter or an MPA. With advances in towed array sonars, frigates and helicopters really can keep them at arms length.
He also discusses the potential of the F-35B operating with surface AAW platforms.
Since the talk NATO has established its Maritime Command at Northwood in the UK and Joint Forces Command (Norfolk) in Virginia. We have also restarted transatlantic reinforcement exercises.
Professor Grove mentions carriers a lot, in terms of protecting shipping and amphibious forces. At 50:15 he suggests that the thing hostile submarine captains dread most of all is the dipping sonar - and that an airborne radar flooding an area will keep the hostile submarines down. He then describes witness an ASW exercise in which a number of NATO submarines transmitted Soviet levels of noise, and everyone was covered by either an ASW helicopter or an MPA. With advances in towed array sonars, frigates and helicopters really can keep them at arms length.
He also discusses the potential of the F-35B operating with surface AAW platforms.
Since the talk NATO has established its Maritime Command at Northwood in the UK and Joint Forces Command (Norfolk) in Virginia. We have also restarted transatlantic reinforcement exercises.