Future Carrier (Including Costs)
Thread Starter
This graphic, originally from this article, demonstrates the linkages between the carriers, amphibious forces, and logistic shipping. I am not sure about the use of the word 'strike', as it suggests that is the sole reason for the carrier (and group), instead of promoting the carrier as a platform for sea control as well power projection.
HMS Prince of Wales will shortly be resuming sea training and preparation for the NATO Response Force flagship role that she will be performing next year as part of the 30/30/30/30 force.
HMS Prince of Wales will shortly be resuming sea training and preparation for the NATO Response Force flagship role that she will be performing next year as part of the 30/30/30/30 force.
Thread Starter
The rumours are that HMS Prince Of Wales will shortly embark six F-35B Lightnings and presumably some Merlin HM2s to carry on working up in preparation for the NATO flagship role.
Meanwhile, for academic interest, here are six parts (from YouTube) of a mid 1980's documentary that the BBC made about the defence of the Falklands task group in 1982. The lessons are still very relevant.
Lessons include:
The need to kill the archers, not the arrows.
The need for fighters and AEW.
Defence in depth.
Decoy usage.
The need for warships to have effective sensors and weapons.
Meanwhile, for academic interest, here are six parts (from YouTube) of a mid 1980's documentary that the BBC made about the defence of the Falklands task group in 1982. The lessons are still very relevant.
Lessons include:
The need to kill the archers, not the arrows.
The need for fighters and AEW.
Defence in depth.
Decoy usage.
The need for warships to have effective sensors and weapons.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 23rd Aug 2021 at 21:14.
In the Channel off Seaton today, Between Lyme Regis and Exeter HMS PofW. My zoom camera pictures too fuzzy to be worth posting, However there was a Merlin flying round over her that eventually swooped inshore for a hover off the beach.....Any airshow is worth it..
Will check later if the pictures are worth posting..
At first glance through the viewfinder a Merlin, however second thoughts were Sea King, so could not be from the ship
Will check later if the pictures are worth posting..
At first glance through the viewfinder a Merlin, however second thoughts were Sea King, so could not be from the ship
Last edited by Kiltrash; 26th Aug 2021 at 17:07.
Although technology to kill the arrows has MASSIVELY evolved in the mean time. With the new generation of long range missiles you will not always be able to kill the archer. On the plus side these long range missiles are rather big and heavy and thus rather easy targets for systems like RAM, Phalanx. AEW remains crucial, though.
As relief from the grim state of affairs in Afghanistan a couple of lighter tweets from a CSG21 ship.
HMS Defender performed RAS(F) from USS America on 20AUG21
https://tinyurl.com/6r8vacr8
Also performed the first 'type' landing for a Crowsnest equipped Merlin on a T45 a week earlier. Hardly suprising given T45s are designed to take a Merlin, but it does suggest a partial solution to the relative myopia of RW ASAC/AEW
.
https://tinyurl.com/v7hdzktx
HMS Defender performed RAS(F) from USS America on 20AUG21
https://tinyurl.com/6r8vacr8
Also performed the first 'type' landing for a Crowsnest equipped Merlin on a T45 a week earlier. Hardly suprising given T45s are designed to take a Merlin, but it does suggest a partial solution to the relative myopia of RW ASAC/AEW
.https://tinyurl.com/v7hdzktx
. Following the example of HMS Severn's dazzle paint, 814 NAS Tungsten Flight have taken a leaf out of KptzS Hans Langsdorff's book and have altered the outline of their Merlin to confuse onlookers.Or is this some previously unknown Contractorized Blue Air operating with HMSPWLS? Anyway she's back alongside the PRJ since yesterday.
Thread Starter
As ever, the assumption that the carrier exists in isolation from other naval forces, and has the sole mission of hitting targets on land, bugs me. You may be interested in this comment from Not.A.boffin over on the ARRSE CVF and Carrier Strike thread:
All the requirements studies of the mid-90s and beyond - including the supporting high-level and detailed operational analysis that supported the Staff Requirement Dossier for the project - included defence of maritime forces and forces ashore from an air threat.
The sortie generation studies and requirements all included air defence as well.
Also the comments here. Remember the carrier is critical for ASW operations too. The HSC Fire and Ice paper has a scenario of Putin seeking conflict in the Baltics/Scandinavia to distract his population from economic failings and the crackdown on personal freedoms.
...there is likely to be a fierce initial local engagement, followed by a lull, which in turn would – assuming mediation and other countermeasures failed – develop into a decisive larger engagement. In this context, reinforcements from the US brought in along NATO’s SLOC would be vital.
--
From a maritime perspective, the Kremlin’s assessment in the near-future conflict we are examining would, therefore, likely be as follows:
• The Alliance lacks the peacetime ground force strength in Europe to dislodge Russian occupation forces from their positions without substantial reinforcements from the US which are only practical to bring in by sea: disruption of seaborne reinforcements (SLOC interdiction) and related action is therefore desirable to aid in the wider effort to forestall an offensive.
• NATO is militarily and politically vulnerable to long-range conventional weapons launched from or transiting through the northern flank/maritime domain: the threat or reality of strikes against the Alliance’s rear area may contribute to halting the conflict on acceptable terms.
• Defending Russia’s maritime approaches is crucial for both homeland defence and the provision/protection of the SSBN arm of the strategic nuclear deterrent: every effort must be made to defend the maritime approaches and mainland Russia
As a counter to Russian strategies of interdiction the Atlantic SLOCs it suggests deploying a NATO ASW task group into the GIUK gap early on, consisting of one of our carriers and the normal frigates and destroyers, SSN, and RFAs, and a force of NATO frigates, destroyers, and SSKs. NATO carriers, including ours, are also key to the response to Russian forces striking NATO points of vulnerability.
All the requirements studies of the mid-90s and beyond - including the supporting high-level and detailed operational analysis that supported the Staff Requirement Dossier for the project - included defence of maritime forces and forces ashore from an air threat.
The sortie generation studies and requirements all included air defence as well.
Also the comments here. Remember the carrier is critical for ASW operations too. The HSC Fire and Ice paper has a scenario of Putin seeking conflict in the Baltics/Scandinavia to distract his population from economic failings and the crackdown on personal freedoms.
...there is likely to be a fierce initial local engagement, followed by a lull, which in turn would – assuming mediation and other countermeasures failed – develop into a decisive larger engagement. In this context, reinforcements from the US brought in along NATO’s SLOC would be vital.
--
From a maritime perspective, the Kremlin’s assessment in the near-future conflict we are examining would, therefore, likely be as follows:
• The Alliance lacks the peacetime ground force strength in Europe to dislodge Russian occupation forces from their positions without substantial reinforcements from the US which are only practical to bring in by sea: disruption of seaborne reinforcements (SLOC interdiction) and related action is therefore desirable to aid in the wider effort to forestall an offensive.
• NATO is militarily and politically vulnerable to long-range conventional weapons launched from or transiting through the northern flank/maritime domain: the threat or reality of strikes against the Alliance’s rear area may contribute to halting the conflict on acceptable terms.
• Defending Russia’s maritime approaches is crucial for both homeland defence and the provision/protection of the SSBN arm of the strategic nuclear deterrent: every effort must be made to defend the maritime approaches and mainland Russia
As a counter to Russian strategies of interdiction the Atlantic SLOCs it suggests deploying a NATO ASW task group into the GIUK gap early on, consisting of one of our carriers and the normal frigates and destroyers, SSN, and RFAs, and a force of NATO frigates, destroyers, and SSKs. NATO carriers, including ours, are also key to the response to Russian forces striking NATO points of vulnerability.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 6th Sep 2021 at 07:43.
Much more likely is that the Russian strategy is to grab something and then threaten to fry any European Nation that attacks them - simple, to the point and much more effective than buggering about in the N Atlantic
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
I hadn’t realised it was so portable - but how resistant is it to enemy satellite detection? (I’m presuming it’s pretty stealthy otherwise it wouldn5 be much use on a carrier when it goes EMCON silent, but ships move when you go silent - and islands don’t. So a quick fix could allow rapid targeting).
https://www.defensenews.com/digital-...irfields-soon/
Raytheon’s precision landing system could be coming to more allied ships, expeditionary airfields soon
WASHINGTON — Raytheon Technologies is pushing its aircraft precision landing system out to more customers globally, making it easier for allied navies to cross-deck on each other’s ships and for Marine jets to island-hop as high-end warfare concepts push the fleet in those directions……
The U.S. and U.K. navies last year announced an interchangeability plan for future operations, with the current Queen Elizabeth deployment being the first demonstration of the idea that they could not only deploy alongside each other, but go further to mix and match operators, parts, logistics, command-and-control structures and more, to get the most capacity out of working together.…..
Raytheon and the Marine Corps are also in talks over using JPALS ashore to help pilots find expeditionary runways — which would be particularly relevant under the Marines’ expeditionary advanced base operations concept that involves dispersing small groups of Marines across islands and shorelines where there may not be much established infrastructure.
The service has already practiced establishing expeditionary airfields to refuel and rearm aircraft, and having a JPALS system on the ground would make it all the easier and safer for these planes to come in for a landing in a new and temporary location.
“When you think about island-hopping, the system is so small — right now it’s just in transit cases, like pelican cases — you can throw it in the back of a helicopter, land, set it up and you’re good to go,” Jaynes said.
“If you need to move to another island, you can pick it back up and go, and it takes about an hour [for] synchronization with the satellites: so you roll out the transit cases, set up your GPS triangle in about 15 minutes, and then you’re synchronizing with satellites and you’re good to go for precision approach.”
Cleveland said the system could be moved via Humvee or potentially airdropped and that one expeditionary JPALS system can establish up to 50 different landing points within a 20 nautical mile radius.
After two previous tests in 2019, the Marine Corps invited Raytheon to come to Marine Corps Air Station Yuma this June for more testing. Marines in F-35Bs did 50 or 60 landings, both traditional and vertical, using the JPALS guidance system. They started using just the primary runway, but in later tests they established a secondary runway 11 miles away and practiced approaches where JPALS diverted them to a different runway at the last minute.
In the real world, this could happen if bad weather made the original landing point too dangerous to approach, or if enemy forces had picked up on the original landing point on a small island, Jaynes and Cleveland explained.
The Navy will soon integrate JPALS onto its V-22 Osprey variant, the CMV-22 that will serve the carrier onboard delivery mission on aircraft carriers.
This integration work could bring the Marines’ MV-22 into the fold, Jaynes said, meaning the Marines could use both their F-35Bs and MV-22s in precision landings on allied ships and expeditionary island airfields.
https://www.defensenews.com/digital-...irfields-soon/
Raytheon’s precision landing system could be coming to more allied ships, expeditionary airfields soon
WASHINGTON — Raytheon Technologies is pushing its aircraft precision landing system out to more customers globally, making it easier for allied navies to cross-deck on each other’s ships and for Marine jets to island-hop as high-end warfare concepts push the fleet in those directions……
The U.S. and U.K. navies last year announced an interchangeability plan for future operations, with the current Queen Elizabeth deployment being the first demonstration of the idea that they could not only deploy alongside each other, but go further to mix and match operators, parts, logistics, command-and-control structures and more, to get the most capacity out of working together.…..
Raytheon and the Marine Corps are also in talks over using JPALS ashore to help pilots find expeditionary runways — which would be particularly relevant under the Marines’ expeditionary advanced base operations concept that involves dispersing small groups of Marines across islands and shorelines where there may not be much established infrastructure.
The service has already practiced establishing expeditionary airfields to refuel and rearm aircraft, and having a JPALS system on the ground would make it all the easier and safer for these planes to come in for a landing in a new and temporary location.
“When you think about island-hopping, the system is so small — right now it’s just in transit cases, like pelican cases — you can throw it in the back of a helicopter, land, set it up and you’re good to go,” Jaynes said.
“If you need to move to another island, you can pick it back up and go, and it takes about an hour [for] synchronization with the satellites: so you roll out the transit cases, set up your GPS triangle in about 15 minutes, and then you’re synchronizing with satellites and you’re good to go for precision approach.”
Cleveland said the system could be moved via Humvee or potentially airdropped and that one expeditionary JPALS system can establish up to 50 different landing points within a 20 nautical mile radius.
After two previous tests in 2019, the Marine Corps invited Raytheon to come to Marine Corps Air Station Yuma this June for more testing. Marines in F-35Bs did 50 or 60 landings, both traditional and vertical, using the JPALS guidance system. They started using just the primary runway, but in later tests they established a secondary runway 11 miles away and practiced approaches where JPALS diverted them to a different runway at the last minute.
In the real world, this could happen if bad weather made the original landing point too dangerous to approach, or if enemy forces had picked up on the original landing point on a small island, Jaynes and Cleveland explained.
The Navy will soon integrate JPALS onto its V-22 Osprey variant, the CMV-22 that will serve the carrier onboard delivery mission on aircraft carriers.
This integration work could bring the Marines’ MV-22 into the fold, Jaynes said, meaning the Marines could use both their F-35Bs and MV-22s in precision landings on allied ships and expeditionary island airfields.
Its amazing how the world turns.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...71847309428715
The Sea Harrier had a great system called MADGE, which I believe could be put on the back of a Land Rover as well for remote sites ashore. I am not sure if it was ever fitted more widely. It gave a great sense of security to pilots in the dark of night in the middle of the Atlantic.
Apparently we may be seeing some Supersonic Airliners being developed as well.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...71847309428715
The Sea Harrier had a great system called MADGE, which I believe could be put on the back of a Land Rover as well for remote sites ashore. I am not sure if it was ever fitted more widely. It gave a great sense of security to pilots in the dark of night in the middle of the Atlantic.
Apparently we may be seeing some Supersonic Airliners being developed as well.
Widger
Correct. There was the aircraft fit, carrier fit, and transportable ground installation.
Phase 2 was the Near Field Integrity Monitoring System, and Microwave Dummy Deck Landing System. The latter was short lived, someone reversing a 4-tonner over it at Yeovilton.
It's a long story, but around 1992 the FAA decided not to retain it. A strange decision, given a Board of Inquiry had recently noted the aircraft hadn't MADGE fitted, the pilot having difficulty getting home after a bird strike. But the president wasn't able (or allowed) to publish the background.
Correct. There was the aircraft fit, carrier fit, and transportable ground installation.
Phase 2 was the Near Field Integrity Monitoring System, and Microwave Dummy Deck Landing System. The latter was short lived, someone reversing a 4-tonner over it at Yeovilton.
It's a long story, but around 1992 the FAA decided not to retain it. A strange decision, given a Board of Inquiry had recently noted the aircraft hadn't MADGE fitted, the pilot having difficulty getting home after a bird strike. But the president wasn't able (or allowed) to publish the background.
"but around 1992 the FAA decided not to retain it. A strange decision, given a Board of Inquiry had recently noted the aircraft hadn't MADGE fitted, the pilot having difficulty getting home after a bird strike. But the president wasn't able (or allowed) to publish the background."
That may turn up in the National Records Office soon - unless of course its SO SECRET that some of the decision makers are still around to be embarrassed
That may turn up in the National Records Office soon - unless of course its SO SECRET that some of the decision makers are still around to be embarrassed
"but around 1992 the FAA decided not to retain it. A strange decision, given a Board of Inquiry had recently noted the aircraft hadn't MADGE fitted, the pilot having difficulty getting home after a bird strike. But the president wasn't able (or allowed) to publish the background."
That may turn up in the National Records Office soon - unless of course its SO SECRET that some of the decision makers are still around to be embarrassed
That may turn up in the National Records Office soon - unless of course its SO SECRET that some of the decision makers are still around to be embarrassed
In the Channel off Seaton today, Between Lyme Regis and Exeter HMS PofW. My zoom camera pictures too fuzzy to be worth posting, However there was a Merlin flying round over her that eventually swooped inshore for a hover off the beach.....Any airshow is worth it..
Will check later if the pictures are worth posting..
At first glance through the viewfinder a Merlin, however second thoughts were Sea King, so could not be from the ship
Will check later if the pictures are worth posting..
At first glance through the viewfinder a Merlin, however second thoughts were Sea King, so could not be from the ship
"Finley" aka XZ920
https://helioperations.co/blog/finle...ng-helicopter/
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ioritise-trade
PM accused of deliberate ‘strategic void’ on China to prioritise trade
Boris Johnson has been accused of avoiding a clear strategy on China for fear it will force him to make difficult decisions that put human rights ahead of enhanced trade with the world’s second largest economy.
The allegation of a “strategic void” is made in a major report on the future of UK-China relations by the House of Lords’ international and defence select committee.
It warns that given the trajectory of China’s global ambitions, the UK must be prepared for a “potentially long and severe period of disruption in its trade and political relations with China”. The Conservative-chaired committee warns this new realism about China and its goals requires a depth of understanding of the country across the UK government that is currently lacking.
The report, full of insight from former ministers and defence chiefs, points to “inconsistencies, uncertainty and lack of a central strategy” in UK government relations with China.……
The report urges the government not to pursue a free trade agreement with China at this time, and questions whether the government has thought through the implications of its tilt to the Indo-Pacific, including the dispatch of a carrier strike group to the South China Sea. It says it is not clear how a UK security presence is to be maintained in the medium term without cooperation with allies including France.
The report warns: “Even if not planned, there is a strong risk that future rhetoric from China will at some point provoke a major conflict. The ‘tilt’ to the Indo-Pacific implies that the UK will be less able to isolate itself from such an event. It needs to carefully consider its contingency plans.
“With the future presence of the Royal Navy in the South and East China Seas, it is not impossible that a UK naval vessel (rather than the US fleet) could be used by China as the test of their sovereignty, and therefore the start of such a conflict.”
PM accused of deliberate ‘strategic void’ on China to prioritise trade
Boris Johnson has been accused of avoiding a clear strategy on China for fear it will force him to make difficult decisions that put human rights ahead of enhanced trade with the world’s second largest economy.
The allegation of a “strategic void” is made in a major report on the future of UK-China relations by the House of Lords’ international and defence select committee.
It warns that given the trajectory of China’s global ambitions, the UK must be prepared for a “potentially long and severe period of disruption in its trade and political relations with China”. The Conservative-chaired committee warns this new realism about China and its goals requires a depth of understanding of the country across the UK government that is currently lacking.
The report, full of insight from former ministers and defence chiefs, points to “inconsistencies, uncertainty and lack of a central strategy” in UK government relations with China.……
The report urges the government not to pursue a free trade agreement with China at this time, and questions whether the government has thought through the implications of its tilt to the Indo-Pacific, including the dispatch of a carrier strike group to the South China Sea. It says it is not clear how a UK security presence is to be maintained in the medium term without cooperation with allies including France.
The report warns: “Even if not planned, there is a strong risk that future rhetoric from China will at some point provoke a major conflict. The ‘tilt’ to the Indo-Pacific implies that the UK will be less able to isolate itself from such an event. It needs to carefully consider its contingency plans.
“With the future presence of the Royal Navy in the South and East China Seas, it is not impossible that a UK naval vessel (rather than the US fleet) could be used by China as the test of their sovereignty, and therefore the start of such a conflict.”
A double whammy:
Royal Navy aircraft carriers make history on simultaneous F-35B Lightning jet operations
Britain’s two new aircraft carriers have been conducting simultaneous F-35B fast jet operations for the first time – thousands of miles apart. Separated by 7,000 miles, HMS Prince of Wales in the North Sea and HMS Queen Elizabeth in the Pacific have been launching and recovering the stealth strike fighter on round-the-clock sorties.
Until now, the ships have embarked the fifth-generation jets but never have the two 65,000-tonne behemoths launched the fighters from their flight decks at the same time. That’s now changed with HMS Prince of Wales exercising with the RAF’s 207 Squadron in waters close to the UK, while, on the other side of the world, HMS Queen Elizabeth carries out flying operations over the Pacific with her jets from 617 Squadron and VMFA-211 of the US Marine Corps...
Royal Navy aircraft carriers make history on simultaneous F-35B Lightning jet operations
Originally Posted by RN website
Britain’s two new aircraft carriers have been conducting simultaneous F-35B fast jet operations for the first time – thousands of miles apart. Separated by 7,000 miles, HMS Prince of Wales in the North Sea and HMS Queen Elizabeth in the Pacific have been launching and recovering the stealth strike fighter on round-the-clock sorties.
Until now, the ships have embarked the fifth-generation jets but never have the two 65,000-tonne behemoths launched the fighters from their flight decks at the same time. That’s now changed with HMS Prince of Wales exercising with the RAF’s 207 Squadron in waters close to the UK, while, on the other side of the world, HMS Queen Elizabeth carries out flying operations over the Pacific with her jets from 617 Squadron and VMFA-211 of the US Marine Corps...
Thread Starter
Curiously the 207 Sqn jets were disembarked last week. Perhaps this explains why:
Drones launched from HMS Prince of Wales during landmark demonstration
Fixed-wing drones – called the QinetiQ Banshee Jet 80+ – flew from the carrier’s vast flight deck to assess how they might be used to train personnel in defending against ever-more-capable fast jets and missiles.
The jet-powered Banshee, which looks like a mini fighter aircraft, can soar to 25,000ft, skim just above the waves, and flies at speeds up to 400 knots (around 460mph).
It is hard to detect on radar, giving it all the likeness of an incoming missile – making it a realistic adversary for sailors to train in countering aerial threats.
These drones could eventually be carried by Royal Navy warships and provide operational training to task groups wherever they might be in the world, allowing them to conduct air defence exercises on demand to test reactions and hone responses.
And the Banshee’s carrying capacity means the Royal Navy can use it for testing future sensors, weaponry and radio equipment.
HMS Prince of Wales is the first Royal Navy ship to carry these drones for demonstration purposes, as she moves towards being fully operational.
The Banshee flights represent the first step for the Royal Navy in exploring how crewless tech could be operated from the Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers in the future.
Prince of Wales does appear to have some Merlin HM2s embarked, as well as Wildcat AH1 from 847NAS:
I was hoping for tales of the Lightnings and Merlins being used to protect amphibious forces from air and submarine threats. Classic carrier roles, and classic NATO stuff.
Drones launched from HMS Prince of Wales during landmark demonstration
Fixed-wing drones – called the QinetiQ Banshee Jet 80+ – flew from the carrier’s vast flight deck to assess how they might be used to train personnel in defending against ever-more-capable fast jets and missiles.
The jet-powered Banshee, which looks like a mini fighter aircraft, can soar to 25,000ft, skim just above the waves, and flies at speeds up to 400 knots (around 460mph).
It is hard to detect on radar, giving it all the likeness of an incoming missile – making it a realistic adversary for sailors to train in countering aerial threats.
These drones could eventually be carried by Royal Navy warships and provide operational training to task groups wherever they might be in the world, allowing them to conduct air defence exercises on demand to test reactions and hone responses.
And the Banshee’s carrying capacity means the Royal Navy can use it for testing future sensors, weaponry and radio equipment.
HMS Prince of Wales is the first Royal Navy ship to carry these drones for demonstration purposes, as she moves towards being fully operational.
The Banshee flights represent the first step for the Royal Navy in exploring how crewless tech could be operated from the Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers in the future.
Prince of Wales does appear to have some Merlin HM2s embarked, as well as Wildcat AH1 from 847NAS:
I was hoping for tales of the Lightnings and Merlins being used to protect amphibious forces from air and submarine threats. Classic carrier roles, and classic NATO stuff.