Future Carrier (Including Costs)
"either by deploying the CSG within Europe"
never realised they were amphibious............
never realised they were amphibious............
Thread Starter
You were not the only person to get hung up over the word 'Europe'. Euro Atlantic would be better - that is the North Atlantic, North Sea and Norwegian Sea and into the High North, and also the Mediterranean.
With regards to ASW and the role of carriers in countering the submarine threat, Professor Grove talked about this in his RUSI talk. At 50:15 he suggests that the thing hostile submarine captains dread most of all is the dipping sonar - and that an airborne radar flooding an area will keep the hostile submarines down. He then describes witnessing an ASW exercise in which a number of NATO submarines transmitted Soviet levels of noise, and every one was covered by either an ASW helicopter or an MPA.
Since then the frigate sonars have got more advanced with a much greater range, and the helicopters have greater range and endurance, and more sophisticated sonar and radar themselves. If the technology improves, then it follows tactics also change. Much of the public information about ASW is more than a few years out of date, and some of us have fallen into the trap of thinking that as we had x cabs in the 1980s we still need that number. I have tried to acknowledge that I have fallen into that trap - when the CO 0f 820 NAS said he could protect the Carrier Strike Group on a 24/7 basis with less cabs than in the CVS/Sea King heyday, that was good enough for me - and enough information for me. According to this news report, the ASW did work and kept tabs on Chinese boats, as well as Russian ones in the Mediterranean.
The story about the Russians in the Mediterranean also mentions the F-35B Lightnings from HMS Queen Elizabeth doing intercepts of Russian jets.
One of the things that worries me is the way some people think carriers are only about attacking land targets, which was certainly not the case during during the Second World War or the Cold War, or the Falklands, and never has been as far as NATO is concerned. I even started an ARRSE thread all about this with links to now declassified documents about the air defence and ASW roles that the carrier was expected to play in the NATO environment - Late 1970s US Congress Report - The US Sea Control Mission (carriers needed in the Atlantic for Air Defence and ASW - both then and today).
Anyone would think that the Naval leadership knows better than the tabloid critics or those that uncritically accept the propaganda from Moscow and Beijing.
With regards to ASW and the role of carriers in countering the submarine threat, Professor Grove talked about this in his RUSI talk. At 50:15 he suggests that the thing hostile submarine captains dread most of all is the dipping sonar - and that an airborne radar flooding an area will keep the hostile submarines down. He then describes witnessing an ASW exercise in which a number of NATO submarines transmitted Soviet levels of noise, and every one was covered by either an ASW helicopter or an MPA.
Since then the frigate sonars have got more advanced with a much greater range, and the helicopters have greater range and endurance, and more sophisticated sonar and radar themselves. If the technology improves, then it follows tactics also change. Much of the public information about ASW is more than a few years out of date, and some of us have fallen into the trap of thinking that as we had x cabs in the 1980s we still need that number. I have tried to acknowledge that I have fallen into that trap - when the CO 0f 820 NAS said he could protect the Carrier Strike Group on a 24/7 basis with less cabs than in the CVS/Sea King heyday, that was good enough for me - and enough information for me. According to this news report, the ASW did work and kept tabs on Chinese boats, as well as Russian ones in the Mediterranean.
The story about the Russians in the Mediterranean also mentions the F-35B Lightnings from HMS Queen Elizabeth doing intercepts of Russian jets.
One of the things that worries me is the way some people think carriers are only about attacking land targets, which was certainly not the case during during the Second World War or the Cold War, or the Falklands, and never has been as far as NATO is concerned. I even started an ARRSE thread all about this with links to now declassified documents about the air defence and ASW roles that the carrier was expected to play in the NATO environment - Late 1970s US Congress Report - The US Sea Control Mission (carriers needed in the Atlantic for Air Defence and ASW - both then and today).
Anyone would think that the Naval leadership knows better than the tabloid critics or those that uncritically accept the propaganda from Moscow and Beijing.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 28th Feb 2022 at 19:47. Reason: My English!
But Submarine technology also improves - they get quieter, and can dive deeper and have more ability to recognise thermal layers etc - its a never ending struggle
Thread Starter
HMS Prince of Wales departs Portsmouth to lead NATO task force in the Arctic - Royal Navy
The UK’s largest warship has left Portsmouth to lead a NATO task force to the Arctic for the biggest exercises in Norway for 30 years.
Aircraft carrier HMS Prince of Wales deploys in her role as NATO’s command ship to Exercise Cold Response, the large-scale Norwegian-led exercises which will see 35,000 troops from 28 nations operate together in the harshest environment.
Prince of Wales is responsible for leading NATO’s Maritime High Readiness Force – an international task group formed to deal with major global events – and deploys for the first time in that role to Cold Response.
Aboard the carrier are the most senior sea-going staff in the Royal Navy – Commander UK Strike Force, headed by Rear Admiral Mike Utley, who will lead a sizeable task force as part of a galvanized NATO effort for peace and stability in Europe.
Rear Admiral Utley said: “NATO is the cornerstone of the UK defence and our commitment to the alliance is absolute.
“It is a privilege to be the UK Maritime Component Commander as we participate in this Norwegian-led exercise.”
Prince of Wales will be at the head of a powerful maritime task force, which, alongside aircraft and land forces – including Royal Marines Commandos – will show how a unified multilateral force would defend Norway and Europe’s northern flank from a modern adversary.
Then, despite having learnt to use phrases like "defence of the task group", the author of that article then describes all the other task group assets as a ring of steel to defend the carrier, instead of being to achieve sea control and then moving towards the amphibious landing areas. For crying out loud!
Exercise Cold Response 22 Fact Sheet - Norwegian Armed Forces
The three phases of the exercise:
Phase 1: Command of the sea (sea control) ensures that Allies are able to deploy to Norway. Sea control is ensured by the use of naval and air forces.
Phase 2: Air operations to ensure allied deployment. Norwegian troops secure important hubs for reception, and the Norwegian total defence prepares for the receiving allied troops and materiel.
Phase 3: Allied amphibious and land operations. These operations are carried out with the support of air and naval forces.
The carrier based F-35B Lightnings and ASW Merlin HM2s are key to sea control - that is why they are there.
The UK’s largest warship has left Portsmouth to lead a NATO task force to the Arctic for the biggest exercises in Norway for 30 years.
Aircraft carrier HMS Prince of Wales deploys in her role as NATO’s command ship to Exercise Cold Response, the large-scale Norwegian-led exercises which will see 35,000 troops from 28 nations operate together in the harshest environment.
Prince of Wales is responsible for leading NATO’s Maritime High Readiness Force – an international task group formed to deal with major global events – and deploys for the first time in that role to Cold Response.
Aboard the carrier are the most senior sea-going staff in the Royal Navy – Commander UK Strike Force, headed by Rear Admiral Mike Utley, who will lead a sizeable task force as part of a galvanized NATO effort for peace and stability in Europe.
Rear Admiral Utley said: “NATO is the cornerstone of the UK defence and our commitment to the alliance is absolute.
“It is a privilege to be the UK Maritime Component Commander as we participate in this Norwegian-led exercise.”
Prince of Wales will be at the head of a powerful maritime task force, which, alongside aircraft and land forces – including Royal Marines Commandos – will show how a unified multilateral force would defend Norway and Europe’s northern flank from a modern adversary.
Then, despite having learnt to use phrases like "defence of the task group", the author of that article then describes all the other task group assets as a ring of steel to defend the carrier, instead of being to achieve sea control and then moving towards the amphibious landing areas. For crying out loud!
Exercise Cold Response 22 Fact Sheet - Norwegian Armed Forces
The three phases of the exercise:
Phase 1: Command of the sea (sea control) ensures that Allies are able to deploy to Norway. Sea control is ensured by the use of naval and air forces.
Phase 2: Air operations to ensure allied deployment. Norwegian troops secure important hubs for reception, and the Norwegian total defence prepares for the receiving allied troops and materiel.
Phase 3: Allied amphibious and land operations. These operations are carried out with the support of air and naval forces.
The carrier based F-35B Lightnings and ASW Merlin HM2s are key to sea control - that is why they are there.
HMS Prince of Wales departs Portsmouth to lead NATO task force in the Arctic - Royal Navy
The UK’s largest warship has left Portsmouth to lead a NATO task force to the Arctic for the biggest exercises in Norway for 30 years.
Aircraft carrier HMS Prince of Wales deploys in her role as NATO’s command ship to Exercise Cold Response, the large-scale Norwegian-led exercises which will see 35,000 troops from 28 nations operate together in the harshest environment.
Prince of Wales is responsible for leading NATO’s Maritime High Readiness Force – an international task group formed to deal with major global events – and deploys for the first time in that role to Cold Response.
Aboard the carrier are the most senior sea-going staff in the Royal Navy – Commander UK Strike Force, headed by Rear Admiral Mike Utley, who will lead a sizeable task force as part of a galvanized NATO effort for peace and stability in Europe.
Rear Admiral Utley said: “NATO is the cornerstone of the UK defence and our commitment to the alliance is absolute.
“It is a privilege to be the UK Maritime Component Commander as we participate in this Norwegian-led exercise.”
Prince of Wales will be at the head of a powerful maritime task force, which, alongside aircraft and land forces – including Royal Marines Commandos – will show how a unified multilateral force would defend Norway and Europe’s northern flank from a modern adversary.
Then, despite having learnt to use phrases like "defence of the task group", the author of that article then describes all the other task group assets as a ring of steel to defend the carrier, instead of being to achieve sea control and then moving towards the amphibious landing areas. For crying out loud!
Exercise Cold Response 22 Fact Sheet - Norwegian Armed Forces
The three phases of the exercise:
Phase 1: Command of the sea (sea control) ensures that Allies are able to deploy to Norway. Sea control is ensured by the use of naval and air forces.
Phase 2: Air operations to ensure allied deployment. Norwegian troops secure important hubs for reception, and the Norwegian total defence prepares for the receiving allied troops and materiel.
Phase 3: Allied amphibious and land operations. These operations are carried out with the support of air and naval forces.
The carrier based F-35B Lightnings and ASW Merlin HM2s are key to sea control - that is why they are there.
The UK’s largest warship has left Portsmouth to lead a NATO task force to the Arctic for the biggest exercises in Norway for 30 years.
Aircraft carrier HMS Prince of Wales deploys in her role as NATO’s command ship to Exercise Cold Response, the large-scale Norwegian-led exercises which will see 35,000 troops from 28 nations operate together in the harshest environment.
Prince of Wales is responsible for leading NATO’s Maritime High Readiness Force – an international task group formed to deal with major global events – and deploys for the first time in that role to Cold Response.
Aboard the carrier are the most senior sea-going staff in the Royal Navy – Commander UK Strike Force, headed by Rear Admiral Mike Utley, who will lead a sizeable task force as part of a galvanized NATO effort for peace and stability in Europe.
Rear Admiral Utley said: “NATO is the cornerstone of the UK defence and our commitment to the alliance is absolute.
“It is a privilege to be the UK Maritime Component Commander as we participate in this Norwegian-led exercise.”
Prince of Wales will be at the head of a powerful maritime task force, which, alongside aircraft and land forces – including Royal Marines Commandos – will show how a unified multilateral force would defend Norway and Europe’s northern flank from a modern adversary.
Then, despite having learnt to use phrases like "defence of the task group", the author of that article then describes all the other task group assets as a ring of steel to defend the carrier, instead of being to achieve sea control and then moving towards the amphibious landing areas. For crying out loud!
Exercise Cold Response 22 Fact Sheet - Norwegian Armed Forces
The three phases of the exercise:
Phase 1: Command of the sea (sea control) ensures that Allies are able to deploy to Norway. Sea control is ensured by the use of naval and air forces.
Phase 2: Air operations to ensure allied deployment. Norwegian troops secure important hubs for reception, and the Norwegian total defence prepares for the receiving allied troops and materiel.
Phase 3: Allied amphibious and land operations. These operations are carried out with the support of air and naval forces.
The carrier based F-35B Lightnings and ASW Merlin HM2s are key to sea control - that is why they are there.
But they're not, are they? They are back at their main bases and the carrier is a glorified and very expensive communications hub!
can't see it distracting Putin from real warfare elsewhere
The participation of Finland and Sweden probably won't go unnoticed.
There is supposed to be a second aircraft carrier participating, it was reported in some sources in January this was going to be the USS Harry S Truman but that seems highly unlikely as she was due to transit the Suez Canal until CSG8 was retasked last December to remain in in the Med to allow CAW-1 to support NATO enhanced Air Policing in response to the tensions between Russia and Ukraine. I would have expected this second carrier to be providing the fixed wing element.
As well as acting as Command Ship, I would assume that HMS Prince of Wales is operating in her 'littoral manouevre' role as this is essentially a Northern Flank reinforcement exercise. As part of II MEF, the US Marines have already deployed F/A-18s and AV-8Bs. RNoAF F-35As are also involved providing intercept capability. The factsheet lists the UK Air component as AW159 Wildcat, EH101 Merlin, HH-60 Pave Hawk
(Shome mistake, obviously) and P-8.
The three phases of the exercise:
Phase 1: Command of the sea (sea control) ensures that Allies are able to deploy to Norway. Sea control is ensured by the use of naval and air forces.
Phase 2: Air operations to ensure allied deployment. Norwegian troops secure important hubs for reception, and the Norwegian total defence prepares for the receiving allied troops and materiel.
Phase 3: Allied amphibious and land operations. These operations are carried out with the support of air and naval forces.
There is supposed to be a second aircraft carrier participating, it was reported in some sources in January this was going to be the USS Harry S Truman but that seems highly unlikely as she was due to transit the Suez Canal until CSG8 was retasked last December to remain in in the Med to allow CAW-1 to support NATO enhanced Air Policing in response to the tensions between Russia and Ukraine. I would have expected this second carrier to be providing the fixed wing element.
As well as acting as Command Ship, I would assume that HMS Prince of Wales is operating in her 'littoral manouevre' role as this is essentially a Northern Flank reinforcement exercise. As part of II MEF, the US Marines have already deployed F/A-18s and AV-8Bs. RNoAF F-35As are also involved providing intercept capability. The factsheet lists the UK Air component as AW159 Wildcat, EH101 Merlin, HH-60 Pave Hawk
(Shome mistake, obviously) and P-8.The three phases of the exercise:
Phase 1: Command of the sea (sea control) ensures that Allies are able to deploy to Norway. Sea control is ensured by the use of naval and air forces.
Phase 2: Air operations to ensure allied deployment. Norwegian troops secure important hubs for reception, and the Norwegian total defence prepares for the receiving allied troops and materiel.
Phase 3: Allied amphibious and land operations. These operations are carried out with the support of air and naval forces.
There is supposed to be a second aircraft carrier participating, it was reported in some sources in January this was going to be the USS Harry S Truman but that seems highly unlikely as she was due to transit the Suez Canal until CSG8 was retasked last December to remain in in the Med to allow CAW-1 to support NATO enhanced Air Policing in response to the tensions between Russia and Ukraine. I would have expected this second carrier to be providing the fixed wing element.
VM - If you are looking at the QHMs movements for 9 March, they look to me like she is being repositioned.
820 NAS have joined PoW.'We’ve done very little so far with HMS Prince of Wales – but that is set to change this year.
These things don’t just happen overnight. We have planned to spend more time with HMS Prince of Wales this year than we will with HMS Queen Elizabeth.' CO 820NAS
https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-an...rince-of-wales
845 NAS and 847 NAS are already in Norway for Clockwork 22 along with 45 Commando and the Commando Logistics Regiment.
820 NAS have joined PoW.'We’ve done very little so far with HMS Prince of Wales – but that is set to change this year.
These things don’t just happen overnight. We have planned to spend more time with HMS Prince of Wales this year than we will with HMS Queen Elizabeth.' CO 820NAS
https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-an...rince-of-wales
845 NAS and 847 NAS are already in Norway for Clockwork 22 along with 45 Commando and the Commando Logistics Regiment.
VM, my apologies, I plead Covid induced brain failure - Outer Spit Buoy and then Nab Deep Water Channel. New IT system to test amongst other things.
I don't think that rules out an imminent deployment. It has become normal to go out for a few days to test systems then come in for a couple of days to embark operational stores and personnel. Then you're good to go.