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Future Carrier (Including Costs)

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Future Carrier (Including Costs)

Old 8th Mar 2022, 19:10
  #6461 (permalink)  
 
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820 NAS would need to supply the cabs and don't seem to be planning to.

There appear to rumours the USS George H W Bush may deploy in the near future. (I believe the only anything like worked up CVN in an Atlantic port.) Just saying, no real evidence. The Ford is due for a truncated deployment later this year once it is fully worked up. The other CVNs on the east coast are long term unavailable undergoing PIA, DPIA or RCOH .
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Old 12th Mar 2022, 16:59
  #6462 (permalink)  
 
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HMSQNLZ has been hosting the Junglies of the CHF OCU 846 NAS. Road closures connected to her trip up to Loch Long to restore is causing ructions among local councillors, demands for compensation for the record high priced fuel consumed by those having to take a diversion.

'Captain Ian Feasey Royal Navy, Commanding Officer of HMS Queen Elizabeth, said: “We return to sea today as the United Kingdom’s Very High Readiness Strike Carrier for routine operational activity and training.
“The hard work of both my ship’s company and our supporting industrial partners has improved the condition of the Fleet Flagship.”
The 65,000-tonne aircraft will return to Glen Mallen on the Clyde in Scotland for a routine logistics visit and also hopes to visit Liverpool on her return leg to Portsmouth at the end of the month.
During this short stint at sea, training will focus on individual, team and whole ship exercises as well as working with commando-carrying Merlin helicopters from RNAS Yeovilton-based 846 Naval Air Squadron.
The ship will be conducting further exercises and training later in the year as the carrier is kept at very high readiness to deploy anywhere in the world at a moment’s notice.'
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Old 17th Mar 2022, 20:11
  #6463 (permalink)  
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Royal Navy aircraft carrier takes centre stage at the heart of mighty naval task force

No F-35B Lightnings are embarked - perhaps due to the slow build up of the RAF/RN force? She is still working with them and directing them against simulated hostile aircraft. I assume that the jets will be embarked on other exercises and deployments this year. HMS Prince of Wales is however carrying Merlin HM2s. One of my annoyances is the simplistic way that the ASW Merlins are frequently described as being for the defence of the carrier, as opposed to the protection of the task/strike group as a whole, and any forces being escorted or supported. The authors of the news items on the RN website sometimes get it right, and Twitter updates can be correctly worded too.

At the start of last years CSG21 deployment: Merlin squadron commanding officer speaks of Carrier Strike Group pride

In terms of the number of people we need to operate those aircraft, we will have approximately 60 aircrew and about 130 engineers and other support staff. That will give us the ability to fly aircraft 24 hours a day with between two and three lines, constantly supporting and protecting the carrier and the strike group.”

After the WESTLANT19 deployment:


The Type 23 (Northumberland) in the surface group also has a Merlin HM2 and a towed array sonar, and the USS Roosevelt carries a pair of MH-60R. The carrier will also coordinate their operations. RAF P-8 Poseidons will also be part of the exercise so we can say that ASW is a major part of the exercise. We can also say that the surface group is there to protect the amphibious group.

Watch this space...

Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 14th Apr 2022 at 21:40.
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Old 17th Mar 2022, 20:28
  #6464 (permalink)  
 
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'WEBF' said above: "...due to the slow build up of the RAF/RN force?..." Slow build up? Perhaps waiting for BLOCK 4 [now problematic itself] aircraft is a bonus? An explanation of sorts in this photo essay: https://www.navylookout.com/royal-na...ussian-attack/

Last edited by SpazSinbad; 17th Mar 2022 at 20:30. Reason: +txt
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Old 29th Mar 2022, 07:25
  #6465 (permalink)  
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Frustratingly, there has been no news thus far on either the RN or MOD websites, or the Twitter feed from HMS Prince of Wales, about her ASW role as part of Exercise Cold Response 22. As well as her own 'surface group', I assume that she is also taking charge of Standing NATO Maritime Group 1 (SNMG1). In any operation in the NATO theatre other NATO naval forces would be attached to the British carrier group, not just surface warships and auxiliaries but also submarines. The addition of NATO naval units is something that critics often ignore.

Here is an interesting Twitter update from SNMG1 which mentions their role in protecting amphibious forces - including with ASW helicopters.



The Merlin HM2s from Prince of Wales will of course be contributing to this.

Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 14th Apr 2022 at 21:41.
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Old 5th Apr 2022, 07:30
  #6466 (permalink)  
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The last few weeks - commanding a surface group and protecting an amphibious force. The next couple of weeks - ASW and defending the Atlantic SLOCs.


Government of Iceland - Defence exercise Northern Viking 2022 to take place in Iceland

The aim of the exercise includes practising the defence of the sea routes around Iceland and of important structures and security infrastructure, e.g. telecommunications cables. The participants will also practice the search and rescue of civilians, with the Icelandic Coast Guard and police. Northern Viking includes an amphibious landing of American marines at Miđsandur in Hvalfjörđur. The landing is planned for 11 April and temporary traffic restrictions may be expected in the area on the day. Members of the media will be invited to observe the exercise and related events, to the extent possible.

The exercise is open for participation of NATO allies and partners. The naval forces of the United Kingdom, France, Germany and Norway have confirmed participation. Military vessels from these states will practice defending the sea routes to the south of Iceland and will participate in a submarine search off the coast of Iceland, with anti-submarine aircraft and helicopters.

US Sixth Fleet Public Affairs - U.S., Iceland Kick Off Exercise Northern Viking 2022

NV22 strengthens interoperability and force readiness between the U.S., Iceland and Allied Nations and enables execution of multi-domain command and control of joint and coalition forces in the defense of Iceland and the Sea Lines of Communication in the Greenland-Iceland-United Kingdom Gap. The exercise includes amphibious landings, expeditionary and construction capability, search and rescue, and humanitarian assistance with forces demonstrating skills in events across multiple domains, climates, and vignettes to enhance interchangeability and interoperability.

On certain websites, namely the UK Defence Journal, the critics are quick to bemoan the lack of embarked F-35B Lightnings. The ASW significance of multiple Merlin HM2s working with a towed array equipped Type 23 (with her own embarked helicopter) seems to have escaped them. Perhaps nobody told them that the carrier has an ASW role?

Historically carriers have been seen primarily as platforms for sea control - at least in the NATO context. I recently found an old 1970s document relating to the problem of integrating the air wings of the 'attack' carriers (a misnomer as they also carried fighters for fleet defence) and ASW carriers.

See also the discussion here: Late 1970s US Congress Report - The US Sea Control Mission (carriers needed in the Atlantic for Air Defence and ASW - both then and today).

By the way, today is the 40th anniversary of Hermes and Invincible sailing for the Falklands following the Argentine invasion.

Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 14th Apr 2022 at 21:42.
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Old 14th Apr 2022, 20:25
  #6467 (permalink)  
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What would I call it? I would call it Integrated ASW. It seems fair enough for the towed array equipped frigate to take charge, cuing the MPA and dipping sonar equipped helicopters as necessary.

I feel a bit daft for banging on about the role carriers and their aircraft can play in protecting shipping or amphibious forces, without mentioning that as well as acting as an escorting force, they can be used as a barrier to stop hostile forces getting near our vulnerable assets. Given the inability of the MOD/RN media people to state that the carrier does do things like air defence and ASW, we might be waiting a long time for a press release describing the contribution made to Exercises Cold Response 22 and Northern Viking 22. After all it was the BBC and Sky that reported the thirty intercepts of Russian jets by F-35B Lightnings from HMS Queen Elizabeth during the CSG21 deployment. or the way frigates and Merlins (and our own SSN) kept track of Russian and Chinese submarines, instead of RN/MOD news stories.

Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 14th Apr 2022 at 21:38.
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Old 21st Apr 2022, 19:17
  #6468 (permalink)  
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Royal Navy carriers ready for Arctic role after Prince of Wales’ High North operation

HMS Prince of Wales led a task group to 77 Degrees North in the North Atlantic to demonstrate the ability of the UK’s two 65,000-tonne Queen Elizabeth-class carriers to operate in the harshest environmental conditions.

The carrier returned home to Portsmouth in the small hours of this morning after seven weeks away – inside or on the fringes of the Arctic Circle – training with allies from NATO and the UK-led Joint Expeditionary Force, having laid the foundations for Royal Navy carrier operations in the High North for the next half century.

Captain Steve Higham, the carrier’s Commanding Officer, said the concerted period operating in and on the fringes of the Arctic had helped the Royal Navy “to push the boundaries of UK carrier operations in the cold, harsh environment.

“HMS Prince of Wales deploying in the High North has proved our ability to operate in the Arctic. I’m very proud of our ship's company and their constant innovation in the face of extreme conditions.”

Reposted as I forgot this Twitter update:


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Old 2nd Jun 2022, 08:02
  #6469 (permalink)  
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As it is forty years on from the Falklands War I am reminded of this excellent BBC Horizon documentary from 1986:











Kill the archer, not the arrows.
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Old 22nd Jun 2022, 21:46
  #6470 (permalink)  
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This is a picture from 1982:




CVS/Sea King/Sea Harrier were designed purely for sea control type operations as part of NATO and in the NATO area, but they also gave us an out of area capability. That picture is from this story on the RN site about the youngest ASW Sea King Pilot who went South in 1982 still serving in the RN today.

Below is a video about the second of the Invincible class, HMS Illustrious, and how she was completed something like a year ahead of a schedule, commissioned at sea, did operational sea training, and was able to relieve Invincible in August 1982 - providing air defence with her Sea Harriers until the Sappers lengthened the runway at Stanley enough for RAF Phantoms. She is fitted with the newly acquired Phalanx system and has AEW Sea Kings embarked.

Her CO, Captain Jock Slater (later an Admiral and First Sea Lord), gives an acceptance speech in which he comments on the value of the carriers to the Western Alliance and the increasing maritime threat.


Ten Sea Harriers, Nine ASW Sea Kings, and two AEW Sea Kings...


Am I right in thinking that we have put 800 and 801 NAS to sea with ten or twelve jets to sea in the event of a Cold War crisis?

Invincible carried twelve Sea Harriers during the Falklands War, as well as her nine ASW Sea Kings, and a couple of Lynx equipped as Exocet decoys. Having a standard air group and reinforcing it during a crisis was an idea proposed in the 1960s with CVA-01, with possible reinforcement with the aircraft resulting from the P1127 project. It remains relevant to this day, with talk of having a number of jets embarked routinely and ramping this up during a crisis. This is only possible with STOVL carriers and VSTOL aircraft.

Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 22nd Jun 2022 at 21:58.
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Old 22nd Jun 2022, 23:15
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I had the opportunity to meet Jock Slater when he was First Sea Lord. It was a Trafalgar Night event. He was, in my dim recollection, a class act.

The number of dead brain cells was beyond counting.

Rule, Britannia, marmalade and jam...

My head hurt for days.

As to the topic at hand, my dear Limey friends, while you all were talking about building a carrier the Chinese went and built one.
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Old 24th Jun 2022, 15:54
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Lonewolf 50,

And, my dear yankee friend, we built TWO!

WEBF,

10, 12 Sea Harriers?

Come on! Prior to the Falklands episode the complement of the FAA's two Sea Harrier Squadrons was 5. After the Falklands with the FA2 it went up slowly to 6, then 8.

It ended with the ignominy of the RN having to form the "Naval Strike Wing at Cottesmore as all that they could scrape together was two flight sized outfits that they couldn't crew, as opposed to the two fully sized squadrons they were supposed to form.

It is no better today with the RAF/RN operated Lightning force. One operational squadron of nine aircraft, with another scheduled to come along some time between 2026 and 2030.

And not to forget that this single nine aircraft squadron is in actual fact a replacement for the Sea Harrier force, the Harrier force, the legacy Jaguar force, and the entire Tornado GR force.

I think the two carriers are magnificent, the F35B Lightning an absolute game changer, but the way the MoD manages numbers and mass is a complete and utter farce!

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Old 24th Jun 2022, 18:49
  #6473 (permalink)  
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p00ne

I was asking about the exceptional and dire circumstance of a Cold War crisis and Transition To War.

At the time of the Argentine surrender in 1982 we had sixteen Sea Harriers aboard HMS Hermes and twelve about Invincible. When Illustrious sailed to relieve her she carried ten. It is not too much of a stretch of the imagination that if the balloon went up in the NATO theatre then the carriers would have more jets embarked than in peacetime. I have seen nothing to confirm that bit I assume that the plans existed. I have seen plans elsewhere for the reinforcement of our forces in Germany or UK based ones during Transition To War, and every man and his dog was earmarked for a wartime role. It does not take a lot of imagine to guess that 800 and 801 would have been augmented, with instructors sent to sea, student Pilots near the end of their course accelerated through the last bit, and so on.

This, like the augmentation during the Falklands War and the deployment of Harrier GR3 aboard HMS Hermes was only possible because they were VSTOL aircraft. The requirements to maintain currency for carrier landing would make it impossible with conventional carrier aircraft. Moving to more recent times, in the mid 1990s I read a Navy News article that the RN had a requirement for something like fifty Sea Harrier pilots - I assume this number was based on the need for wartime augmentation in included Sea Jet drivers on instructional duties - including basic flying, acting as OOW or PWO at sea, staff duties, and so on. The seagoing non flying roles would have been frontline posts, unlike instructional or staff ones.

At the back of Wings On My Sleeve by Captain Eric Brown, there is an old article on the CVA-01 carriers, entitled Phantom Carrier. As well as detailing innovations such as reducing the angle of the deck to a mere one degree to reduce the workload for the pilot lining up in approach and having to correct (there are parallels with the QE Class and SRVL) he mentions that it would be possible for the carriers to be reinforced in a crisis by RAF P1127s (ie what became Harrier).

Naval Strike Wing came after the three Sea Harrier squadrons had been disbanded, and the Sea Harrier retired. Typhoon was intended to replace the Jaguar as well as the Tornado F3, and to a degree the Tornado GR4. It was the UK that insisted that Typhoon had to have a ground attack capability.

I share your concerns over the very slow build up of the F-35B Lightning Force.

Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 27th Jun 2022 at 18:47.
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Old 24th Jun 2022, 23:42
  #6474 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
Lonewolf 50,

And, my dear yankee friend, we built TWO!
Good sir, I do not think that either of those two has a catapult.
The Chinese one does, and we understand that it's one of those Gucci magnetic ones.
From my perspective, being USN and all that, without a catapult it isn't a carrier.
But I am pleased to see that the Harrier replacement (however bloody expensive) will have something to fly off of, so that's a good thing all by itself.
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Old 24th Jun 2022, 23:45
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A catapult? How quaint...
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