Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety

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Originally Posted by nigegilb

Chug, I have heard enough guff from this man to last a lifetime, but I am checking it out all the same time. I won't be bothering with my local MP James Gray, I have asked another MP to make an enquiry on my behalf.
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I wouldnt worry too much about James Gray. Looking at the news before, it looks as if his political career is potentially coming to somewhat of an abrupt end... coverage before on points west.

[nigegilb]

Ah yes the deselection vote. If anyone would like to send a comment to the constituency chairman I have his email....somewhere. If and when the vote is announced I am sure someone will post it here......fingers crossed.


228 OCU I am not sure what the Tombstone Imperative is, care to expand?

Sounds like film noir.

[228 OCU]

Put simply.
Changes are only implemented when the £/$ cost of compensation and/or bad publicity exceeds the cost of modification.

[nigegilb]

Can't say I disagree with that. We have already achieved a great deal. The final battle is probably gaining acceptance that all military aircraft going harms way should have fuel tank protection. It is tricky for the MoD because it will be costly to fit retrospectively. However by nature of the fact that MoD appears to have agreed a fleet wide fit of fuel tank protection and DAS to the A400M, (another change of mind). I am increasingly confident that we will not see future aircraft procured without some form of fuel tank protection. We are approx 40 years behind the Americans on this.
Keep an eye out for the BoI report on XV206, should be an interesting read. The foam pays for itself very quickly. The fact that Ministers have been placed on legal notice could make it a very expensive court case. Shame you have to involve lawyers, but very effective.

[flipster]

Damning report on the Beeb tonight. Still reporting only 2 Hercs fitted with ESF so far. Not enough and only one of many AT fleets.

The report also mentions the nightmare scenario of a troop-laden AT ac going down with all hands. That is something that some of us having warning against for years, yet there are rumours that 'they' keep sending ac in broad daylight to hot areas; some ac without any decent protection.

My thoughts are with the crews and, to a certain extent, the local commanders who have to authorise such sorties when they know there is little they can do, other than to possibly fall on their swords in the certain knowledge that someone will step over their dead bodies and tell the crews to 'do as they are told' anyway.

It needn't have been like this however.

[Chugalug2]

FF, you will have noted the immediate reaction this fantastic news has triggered from people who are fervent about getting ESF fitted to the Herc fleet. Zilch! Now why ever should that be? Bliar and his cohorts have been left in no doubt about the woeful state of our armed forces, and the clapped out and inappropriate equipment with which they have to accomplish ever more difficult tasks, mostly at the direct behest of said Bliar and cohorts! So having been brought to task by serving and exmembers of the Armed Forces, other politicians, members of the House of Lords, broadcasters and newspapers, and most important of all the families of those who have been lost, all of whom share the same determination that the fitting of Explosion Suppressant Foam to the fuel tanks of the Herc Fleet (and every other unprotected British Military Aircraft) is as much a no brainer as putting insulation in your loft, he disingenuously asks for suggestions?
I think that Bliar is moving up in his fantasy world from UK President to that of King Emperor, with subjects from the far flung reaches of his domain coming as supplicants for his largesse. But if that is the price of getting on with this at some speed other than Dead Slow, go for it and anything else that will get things moving!

[flipster]

"Ground crews are working flat-out trying to keep the aircraft operational but often they are grounded because of serious faults, BBC correspondent Paul Wood reported."


I wonder why the engineers are working flat out?

Something to do with being too 'lean' and there being not enough bods on the hangar floor to stand still let alone catch up?

My thoughts are with all you engineering-type folk.

To any sensible senior officer out there...... is it any wonder the engineers are squealing - if not actually PVR-ing? For Goodness sake, wake up and smell the coffee....please!

The troops on the ground (and hence the crews) need properly defended ac - all of them and damn quick!

[kam]

I find this all depressing. I've heard the 'opertional flying is never risk free' and 'unlucky' scenario before. These conclusions will always result in narrow minded, uninspiring changes and solutions.
After a few drinks with a friend, we decided that sexed up flying without the foreplay is eventually unsatisfactory. This is not a criticism of crews but perhaps the admirable 'can do' phenonema has been exploited by the senior ranks and the MOD. Something is very wrong at this interface, unrealistic expectations has devastating outcomes.
Going to take my platypus's to the pool now and cool down.

[chappie]

there is no way that we'll ever know the truth, but there is hope with the confusion about how many that will be fitted. i have heard from a source that all planes will be fitted. this is great news but nonetheless to be treated with some caution as some people think that having all the J class hercs done qualifies such a statement.

i am so sorry that i have been away from the page but thanks to the troublesome pregnancy i have spent my time in hospital. bump is well, mum is not. i'm still thinking of you all. i am to date waiting for the letter from the faceless minister from the MoD. methiks i have got to let the world know about the ignorant stance the government have taken to the nearly three thousand signatures supporting the call for foam.

take care. stay safe.

[Chugalug2]

Chappie, as ever a pleasure to hear from you again. So sorry that you are not well, please take very good care of yourself and 'bump', you are going to have so much to tell him/her in years to come! Coincidentally I watched your BBC interview where you paid tribute to your brother. Very emotional of course, but beneath that a steely determination to ensure that your campaign to see ESF is fitted to ALL aircraft in the Hercules fleet (as well as the others!) really comes through. Well done, it was the first time that I had seen it, and your passion and emotion, not only for your brother and his comrades, but for all the other boys and girls, who as you say deserve a better chance than they had, really says far far more than all the technical and financial appraisals ever could. This isn't complicated, we need to protect our aircraft in the same way that others have done for over forty years, and as quickly as possible. In the meantime could those who task our AT missions ensure that the various VIP photo opportunity tours are flown in the tasked unprotected airframes and that said VIPs know it!

[chappie]

good news

hello one and all, just to let you know that i have checked my earlier info about all the hercs being fitted. i can tell you a well placed source has confirmed what i had been told about all the hercs being done. THEY ARE!!!!! WHO EVER THINKS THAT THEY ARE TOO SMALL TO TAKE ON THE WORLD AND MAKE CHANGES NEEDS TO HAVE FAITH!

i still have not had a letter from the MoD or blair, so i need to chase that up. i have been distracted with the baby. i found out the sex today but there is a problem so i've got to get checked next week. therefore i have alot of emotions and anxieties i can use to fuel my response to the government. i predicted the government would ignore the petition and though i have not had correspondence i found the news out about all being done after the petition had been handed in! who knows maybe i have managed to bring about change.

[flipster]

Well done Chappie

Hope all goes well with bump - this is not an easy time for prospective Mums and Dads and we are all thinking of you. Keep smiling.

Re ESF - the rumours are good but the reality of fitment is still too slow in my books. The politicians should not need reminding that they are on notice for corporate manslaughter if the unthinkable happens again.

If I were you, I would not expect to get any official communiques from the weasly politicos (nor from the official top brass) that imply that your actions and/or petitions have, in any way, influenced the decision to fit ESF. However, we all know differently!

As they say

"Doing this job is like wetting yourself in a dark suit; you get a warm feeling but no-one notices"

It is such a pity that greiving families and retired servicemen/women have had to raise the issue at all. If the MoD
bean-c(o)unters had any morals or sense of duty, then we wouldn't have needed to start the crusade in the first place!

While I won't be celebrating with champange until all of our ac are fitted, I think that those guys and girls still serving on the AT fleet owe you a huge debt of gratitude and I hope I am not alone in offering my own vote of thanks to yourself and, of course, to Nige. :

Keeping the Faith

Flip

[nigegilb]

Chappie, well well well, looks like we did it. You obviously have friends in high places because I have not been able to confirm the news. I have heard it whispered that a fleet fit of foam has become a necessity, but the weasles at the MoD have made no such statement. Way back at the beginning of all this it was implied that foam would not necessarily have made a difference, then, after concerted pressure from us, John Reid admitted that foam could have saved the boys. I have believed all along that they would have been with us today but for the lack of foam protection and now it looks as though this has been acknowledged by the actions of the MoD and RAF. I still want to be absolutely certain though. I will try my own sources again. If is is true, it may well have a bearing on the Inquest. The only thing that remains is for the families to have a full and frank opportunity to look into what happened at the Inquest. I hope that will happen soon. ( I understand February is the earliest date).

I understand that the BoI for XV 206 is complete and is with MoD lawyers, they appear to be hanging on to the report. I hope that the MoD and RAF now come to their collective senses and agree to fit fuel tank protection to all military aircraft.

Well done to one and all, a truly fabulous effort.

Cheers Flip, having seen your rather remarkable evidence sent to the Defence Committe, I think a pat on the back is well in order. If my eyes were watering after reading that letter Lord only knows what CAS must have made of it.

[flipster]

Nice of you to say so but I am just a small cog in the machine. Without the dedication and foresight of you two, the machine would have remained in pieces on the garage floor.

[Chugalug2]

Chappie, Nige, Flipster, you are all star players in this campaign! But as Nige says no one in the corridors of power is going to go on record and say "we were wrong, and you were right all along". Only when the entire Herc Fleet has been fitted with ESF will that essentially be the case.
I'm afraid that in the meantime words are cheap, and butter no parsnips! So keep up the pressure, never relent, especially when you are assured that everything that you have demanded will happen! The name of this game is protected airframes back in service, and as far as I know that is now two, though correct me if I am wrong. That is just not good enough, and this programme needs more priority, and more through-put. As has been said before, if UK plc can't manage it, then give it to someone who can!

[flipster]

Chug

Absolutely spot on!!!!


Flip

"Butter no parsnips"????? I've not heard that one before!

[flipster]

Nige,

BOI has been finished for quite a while but, as you say, it is floating about at high levels at the moment. I can only imagine that the senior bods are trying to do anything to ensure that the BOI should not mention ESF.

That would be a mistake. If the BOI says nowt about ESF we will all know that the BOI has been tampered with.

To my knowledge, the shrapnel from the initial bang on XV 206 caused no further wing-fuel explosions (as in XV179), so ESF might not have stopped the destruction of the XV206 but ESF might have slowed down the spread of the fire a little?

However, the crew of 206 were exceptionally lucky that they escaped with their lives. Had the initial explosion happened at a more inopportune time, say at a high speed in the T/O roll, at night or had there been further wing fuel explosions (which ESF would have prevented) then the outcome might have been very different.

The only reasons why the BOI might say that 'ESF wouldn't have helped' are because there were no secondary bangs or becasue the first mine/explosion was too big for ESF to be effective. If so, this would raise some even more serious questions about force protection/strip protection/inspection ie how did something so big go un-noticed on/near the strip? Perhaps the lawyers need to think about that?

It is arguable either way but I could almost guarantee you that the original findings of the BOI will be massaged. To anyone with half a brain, that will be a bit of a cop out. ESF MIGHT not have helped 206 but in slightly different circumstances, ESF would definitely be a help not a hindrance and should definitely be fitted to all tactical AT (and SH) ac operating close to the enemy - ie everywhere!

Of course, I may be wrong and the BOI will recommend fitting of ESF asap (along with a whole host of other recommendations). We will have to wait and see!

[nigegilb]

Flip it is very dificult to comment from a few phots. Unfortunately the locals removed a fair amount of evidence. There is a crater in the strip behind the aircraft, which suggests it was a mine. I understand it is not possible to land short on that strip so the crater could not have gone unnoticed if it was there before the Hercules landed. The last I heard, there was some debate about what sort of ground attack was made on the ac. There was also talk about refuelling lines being involved. It certainly looks like a fuel explosion on the photos. Remember the foam prevents an explosion but not necessarily a fire. There was little in the way of fire protection on the strip, which makes it even more important to have the fuel tanks protected. I am with you, I reckon foam would have bought time and may even have prevented the destruction of the ac. The lawyers have had it for ages. I hope the findings will be announced before the Inquest starts. Then of course, we await the BoI into the Nimrod crash, which also involved fuel. This is a no brainer, Chug is right to point out that the tardiness in all this, how many more people need to die?

[nigegilb]

I am afraid I have just received this information;

Hercules Aircraft

Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the time scale is for the programme to fit explosion suppressant foam to Hercules aircraft; how many aircraft will be fitted with the foam; and if he will make a statement. [103107]

Mr. Ingram: The majority of the RAF’s C-130 Hercules fleet will be fitted with explosion suppressant foam (ESF). On current plans the programme will be completed by the end of next year.

I am withholding the precise number of C-130 Hercules aircraft that will be fitted with ESF as disclosure would, or would be likely to, prejudice the security of the UK’s armed forces.

I understand around 2/3 rds of the fleet will be fitted out, as opposed to the original plan of 5. This answer came in today, so over to you Chappie. Interesting time frame though. There must be a significant acceleration in the program. I would also agree with Ingram that the security of the minority of Hercules ac not fitted with foam will be prejudiced.

[Chugalug2]

Well that little reprieve didn't last long did it boys and girls? Mr Ingram and chums are masters at misinformation, and make Sir Humphrey seem a paragon of truth and openness. The important thing is to keep banging on and on to get the entire fleet protected and quickly. Let them play their games of good cop bad cop, we have to see this through until the fat lady sings, and they haven't even announced her yet!