Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety

[airborne_artist]

Last time I checked UK PLC was the fourth biggest economy in the World.

UK plc is now #5, having been overtaken in GDP by the Chinese, perhaps the only nation to care less about the safety of its employees.

[nigegilb]

Myth of the "Lucky Shot'

I have received information that dispels the myth that XV179 was brought down by a lucky shot. Back in 2004 another RAF Hercules was hit by small arms fire. The aircraft was taking off from a coalition base and luckily had just been fully re-fuelled with cold fuel. This prevented a significant vapour build up and probably saved the lives of the crew. This incident was a gigantic heads up about what might happen if a round penetrated a half empty fuel tank with a fuel/air vapour mix. Why was foam not fitted as an immediate result of this extremely serious incident? Why are we waiting 14 months after the tragedy to find out what the Chiefs of Staff are going to do to head off another tragedy? Please note that no change of tactics would have saved this crew. It was not operating low level at the time. The Hercules fleet (J,K), has to have foam. It must be done as a matter of urgency.

Please note I have no reason to believe that any aspect of this information is untrue.

[Blodwyn Pig]

without wishing to go into to much detail, i understand that a trial fitting of foam to a 'K' will be happening fairly soon.
sorry to be so vague, but i don't know if the info is out there in the public realm at the minute.

[nigegilb]

Foam in Sight!

With reference to the above posting I would like to add the following. I have reason to believe that before all the publicity this issue was at risk of going the same way as many UORs before it. Then I heard that a handful of frames were going to get foam. This number increased to more than a handful and is "endorsed" but at the expense, yet again, of the J. Finally, I have the news that I have wanted to hear for some time. I think the J has a seat at the table. The "Heat" is on and must be maintained but I think we are finally getting somewhere. I would like to thank everyone for their support once more.

[indie cent]

Three C's

New CDF says: ‘We need to treat our people with consideration, with compassion and with care.’

By David Sibley

CDF ACM Angus Houston talks to Air Force newspaper.


Photo by LACW Kim Eager

AIR Chief Marshal Angus Houston has made looking after “our people” his top priority on becoming Chief of the Defence Force (CDF).

“One of the things that has uplifted me in my time as a senior commander in the ADF is the sheer quality of our people,” he said.

“I go out and see people on operations from all three Services – the most recent example being the tsunami relief operations.

“What I saw were sailors, soldiers and airmen and women doing an absolutely magnificent job for Australia.

“I was really taken by their professionalism, their dedication and their compassion in very challenging circumstances.”

He said to maintain that level of performance Defence had to continue to look after all “our people”.

“I think we need to treat our people with consideration, with compassion and with care,” he said.

:- This is taken from the RAAF News. It was the Top Story in Jul 14 2005.

[nigegilb]

I mentioned in one of my postings (I am sorry there have been so many) that I was struck by the pride of the Aus Military from the top down. They actually appear to be working together in partnership with their politicians/senior officers. When they experience a sad incident, like the US Pax who was shot in the back of a Herc they bang their heads together and try and prevent it happening again. The urgent trial of ballistic matting happened at impressive speed. I was trying to find info about Aus C130 foam and hey presto in a couple of clicks a photo of a smiling engineer with a big sheet of foam in his hands appears with another proud headline. It appears to be a much more open and honest partnership. As a result the nation appears to be behind its military. I think we still have a lot to learn. All Dr Reid could say to grieving relatives this week was "military operations are dangerous." Chiefs of Staff look around you, your people are all you have....If you cannot look after them maybe a military federation is an inevitability.

[rudekid]

Indie Cent
You could take that quote out of the pages of RAF news on a fortnightly basis. Platitudes are all very well....
Quite frankly, foam or no foam, I'd rather have HEVS or the J Model version (not yet sighted by me) to make us a lot safer.
Why, except in extremis, are we flying during the day! Who's signing that off?
Can't help thinking we're missing some of the point.

[flipster]

I have to agree with rudekid - what is the necessity of day flying? Why can't most things be done at night - Certainly, I thought that was the AT fleet's intention. Although night flying has some complications - gogs and trg etc, it is, generally, very much safer viz-a-viz SAFIRE - as we learnt last time?

Just this Once - thanks, check your PMs.

I may not have made it totally clear - it is the higher echelons at Gp (and above) who do not listen to the advice from the 'specialists' and who usually find 'reasons' to insist that the Op is 'paramount' and/or that 'there is no money'...budgets-dontcha-know, old boy!
'They' have done this as they sold us down the swanny by telling the politicos that the MOD and Gp are 'content to manage the risk'...... but with our lives and those of our friends and comrades - op necessity, my @rse!
I hope you would agree that this is totally unacceptable, while other countries fully 'support' and fund their ac and crews. I have only total sympathy with those who are trying to organise the latest 'Persian Excursion'!

[nigegilb]

Up until 48 hours ago the J did not even have a seat at the table, now things might be possible. At the start of all this I was given one piece of advice "throw one ball." I believe it may be working.

[flipster]

Great news for all Hercs - I do hope that people are, at last, learning from past oversights and if the pressure you have generated has helped 'raise awareness' then 'jobzagoodun' - good on ya!
Do we know where all the rest of RAFAT going into theatre stand?

[nigegilb]

lions and donkeys

"The greatest disappointment I felt flying in the RAF was that I was flying with lions on aircraft that were procured by donkeys"....

My ex colleague goes on to say.... "You talk about foam being ID'd back in the early '90's, but a whole host of kit that was pretty much standard on aircraft that fought and lost the war in Vietnam should have been on the frames that you and I were flying - FLIR, secure comms, DAS are all givens in today's AORs."

I think this is in essence what you are getting at rudekid. Bar the odd daylight suicide run into Bagram/Kabul all of my flying in Afghanistan was NVG. I still got targetted by MANPAD, so close that the observer heard the missile explode from the bubble. I was targetted several times by small arms fire on approaches to coalition bases. I have to disagree with your point about HEVS. The baseline in all this is DIRCM, foam, BW protection and NVG ops. On one occasion my crew was tasked to take in a Herc loaded with marines. We did not have an NVG frame so we turned off the ac lighting and taped green light sticks all over the instrument panel. I was told that from on high I should not do this but the Commandos were so keen for publicity that every man and his dog must have known we were going to Bagram that night. I was tempted to invite one of the film crews onto the flight deck and show them what it is like to fly on operations in the RAF in 21st century. Sadly, the J is NVG compatible but is used to fly daylight ops in Iraq. Rest assured, the Defence Committee have been advised of this fact. In many ways the J fleet is taking the biggest risks at the moment. It is one reason why I have been vociferously arguing the case for enhanced protection for the J as well as the K.

[nigegilb]

Here is a link to CREST makers of reticulated foam. I am told they do a sales video of a round hitting a fuel tank with and without ESF fitted.

http://www.crestfoam.com/

[nigegilb]

FF if this is the reason why the J is flying daylight missions it really is very worrying. I would have thought that the circumstances surrounding XV179 would have brought more caution to the Operation. Is this a case of the tail wagging the dog? If so we have been here before. I understand that PJHQ may have changed the Global Threat Matrix to suit the task in Afghanistan. I always thought that AWC were the only people who issued the threat matrix and could change the Matrix. If this is true then INTOs may have been told to do something against their wishes. As a result of that decision, slick Hercs flying the milk run into Bagram were placed in a great deal of danger. In fact it is a miracle that no crews were lost.

[nigegilb]

I would like to explain the above posting because it is extremely important. In Dec 01 it was "darkside only" into Afghanistan because of Threat Matrix. Then something happened. A decision was taken to put slick Hercs in. I am not sure of the exact chrono order, but the Threat Matrix was changed. A "stop order" came out of OEU because of kit concerns days before the slicks were to go in. This was overruled by Defence Chiefs on the grounds of "military risk." This is their entitlement however I believe that PJHQ may have changed the Matrix. This they are not entitled to do. This was not the only occasion that the Threat Matrix was changed overnight to suit the task. Daylight ops into Kabul is another example. The question has to be asked, however uncomfortable, because the MoD has a "Duty of Care" to its personnel. At what point is this "Duty of Care" being thrown away when things as fundamental as MELs/tactics are being changed to suit a task? It goes to the heart of what is wrong with our Armed Forces at the moment. Senior officers are not very good at telling politicians what we can and can't do. Unusually, when looking at British Military History the role of Defence Chiefs with this particular Government needs to be more of a restraining influence. I suspect there are a fair few officers struggling with their consciences.

[nigegilb]

Judging by the PMs winging their way in I think I have touched on a raw nerve in the last 2 postings. I would like to add the following.

Defence Chiefs/Commanders actively sought exemptions from minimum equipment requirements stated in SPINS. In Dec01 it was not possible to send a slick Herc into Afg because of the requirement to comply with SPINS. The RAF threat assessment was then changed and RAF exemptions from SPINS sought. Coalition Hercules (I will not list them here) all had DAS etc. As far as I know ours was the only country that sent its Herc crews in on a wing and a prayer. I believe at this point we threw away any pretence of "Duty of Care."

[BEagle]

I thought the 'INs' in SPINs stood for 'Instructions'?

If the theatre commander has issued such instructions, how can they be disobeyed?

[nigegilb]

I understand that the US reluctantly gave permission for slick RAF Hercs to go into AFG. There was a case of a US Herc accidentally firing off its flares on the way into Afg airspace. The crew turned back and did not complete its mission such was the seriousness with which DAS was perceived to be needed. I can testify that it was not just a perceived threat, but there were other MANPAD incidents. One crew were fired on and clearly saw the explosion. They were later reassured that it was most likely a meteorite. This took the copilot particularly by surprise as he had not long completed a physics degree. He had never come across meteorites that could fly upwards before!

[The Gorilla]

Nige

As an ex LXX man I appreciate everything that you are doing for those still serving and I wish you every success.

But there has NEVER been a duty of care shown towards any of our Forces by the MOD, it is a concept that simply does not exist and I doubt if it ever will.

I have also seen a cavalier attitude to SPINS on many occasions. A lot of theatre commanders think that they are merely advisory and can be amended as required to get the job done. When you are dealing with the type of people at that level, they will do anything to achieve the task and I can well believe that the threat matrix was amended downwards. But this is something that isn't just Herc specific though and I have witnessed an number of blunders and cover ups to achieve the task. Sometimes people get very blinkered on ops to the exclusion of all else.

Keep nibbling away at it Nige you are doing a grand job.
TG

[flipster]

I, too, can confirm that in early 2002 the RAF were blatantly ignoring the SPINs requirements for DAS and other stuff in AFG. When I queried it, I was told that
a) It had been ok'd for the darkside and we were to do the same - it was being taken 'on risk' by higher authority - PJHQ and MOD
and
b) We would soon to be doing an ISAF task with 'slick' aircraft - so we were not 'officially' part of the US Op any more - so we could ignore SPINs and the ATO etc. We decided that was bollox, however, and we continued to be fragged as part of OEF ATO and complied with as many parts of SPINs as possible -this was one of very few ways to be sure that KAB/BAG and AWACS knew we were coming. And after all, we were flying to Kabul and Bagram at the same times of night as the rest of the Op and were just as easily shot at ....and often were!

Duty of care didn't come into it. We were told to do a job for the guys on the ground - and so we had to do it. The troops needed the essential water, food and ammo we brought in (not so sure about the 9mm blanks, bog-roll, chairs and beer for a regimental dinner, tho') .
While doing this was not comfortable, we could see most was necessary and I was proud to serve with such 'lions'. Nonetheless, we shouldn't have been put there by the fragmented Chain of Command and this was certainly highlighted in the Oracle 'Lessons Identified (Ignored) after the Op

- as was DAS, flt deck armour, secure comms and fire supressant foam!

[flipster]

No on second thoughts, the bog-roll REALLY was important - my mistake...sorry!

Nige - we were not totally alone with 'zilch DAS' - IIRC the Greeks (or was it the Romainians) in KHI had B models with no DAS but i think they 'went u/s' once they were informed of the threat but their commanders backed them up.
However, you'll have to ask someone who spent more than an hour on the ground at KHI. Incidently, even 1 hr was too long in my book!