Air Training Corps

[NightFlit]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Big Bear

Quote:
Originally Posted by DK338
No VR(T) officers running Sqns of military aircraft fella and don't include VGSs because they don't count. However, those VR(T) types on full time engagements are civil servants on J class commissions so yes they are civilians.


The Gliders based at Syerston are maintained by civillians who are commanded by a full time RAF JEngO.


have to correct you there. they are maintained by regular servicemen and women, commanded with a full time JengO with a RAFVR Squadron Leader over him.

These same regulars, also maintain the other 120 or so conventional & motor gliders around the UK!

Isn't the OC CGS a regular? The Gliding Examiners of CFS certainly are.

[Big Bear]

[quote=dazjs]

Originally Posted by Big Bear

have to correct you there. they are maintained by regular servicemen and women, commanded with a full time JengO with a RAFVR Squadron Leader over him.

I stand corrected that there may be some servicemen there, however there is a large number of civillian staff. I know this because of the discussion I had with the previous JEngO one happy hour after he had had a particularly trying week.

[Cat5 in the Hat]

OC ACCGS = Regular Wg Cdr. CI ACCGS = Regular Sqn Ldr.
OC CFS Gliding = Regular Sqn Ldr.

Everyone else at ACCGS is part of RAFR(CC). Thy have had to complete ROIT, and OASC to get there.

There are a few civvy drivers, but all the engineers at Eng Flt are regulars.

[Big Bear]

Funnily enough it was the drivers he was complianing about

[background]

And How is that relevant to the ATC?

[dazjs]

Originally Posted by Big Bear

Funnily enough it was the drivers he was complianing about

Couldn't cope, thats what happens when reservists, regulars and civvy have to work together.

I'd love to work there, sound like aright chilled place, do they jusy glide all day. do you not to be in the RAF or just the ATC to work there?????

[mgdaviso]

Originally Posted by dazjs

Couldn't cope, thats what happens when reservists, regulars and civvy have to work together.

I'd love to work there, sound like aright chilled place, do they jusy glide all day. do you not to be in the RAF or just the ATC to work there?????

dazjs - you obviously don't have an iota of a clue of what goes on.....

The ATC Central Gliding School parents our 29 gliding squadrons (spread around the country). This means the have to maintain the glider fleet (I have no idea how many gliders we have, but guessing at a minimum of 2/3 per squadron means probably over 100 aircraft. All of which need airworthiness certificates - annual inspections, etc etc. The instructors also need to have annual check rides, etc, etc and theres all the niff naff and triv to do, so they don't just "glide all day", but provide a professional service to the UK largest gliding school operator and best voluntary youth organisation..

[NightFlit]

The ATC Central Gliding School parents our 29 gliding squadrons (spread around the country).

I think that should read:

"The Air Cadets Central Gliding School parents our 27 Gliding Squadrons..."

--

I think I'm right in saying that the civilian staff is predominantly administration staff. Of course Syerston is now utilised by other units as well these days.

[Ops and Mops]

Originally Posted by mgdaviso

RAFAux or RAAuxF - The RAF's TA

Would I be right in thinking you mean the RAuxAF? (Royal Auxiliary Air Force)

Not quite the "RAF's TA......" although I know where you are coming from with that statement!

RAFR - Usually (but not always) retired or ex-RAF people, employed as (I think) J class reserve. Civil servants, limited call up liability - NOT, by any stretch of the imagination the "real" RAF

Again a little bit of confusion here.

The RAF Reserve (RAFR) is made up of many different classes which dictates the call up liability for those serving in the reserve. This ranges from the "regular Reserve" which are those who have completed their regular service engagement and are transferred to the reserve but still have a full call up liability; Sponsored Reservists (such as the Mobile Met Unit), who work for an MoD contractor (such as the Met Office) but are required to deploy on full call up liability as part of their contract; Some reservists employed by the MoD in the Military Support Function in Full Time Reserve Service on Home Commitment (ie no overseas deployment) that includes the old J class, now known as the RAFR (Civilian Component).

I think that your statement "NOT, by any stretch of the imagination the "real" RAF." for those guys and gals of the RAFR that are serving in Basra, Kabul, Kandahar, Oman, Bosnia et al is maybe a little off target.

[dazjs]

Originally Posted by mgdaviso

dazjs - you obviously don't have an iota of a clue of what goes on.....

The ATC Central Gliding School parents our 29 gliding squadrons (spread around the country). This means the have to maintain the glider fleet (I have no idea how many gliders we have, but guessing at a minimum of 2/3 per squadron means probably over 100 aircraft. All of which need airworthiness certificates - annual inspections, etc etc. The instructors also need to have annual check rides, etc, etc and theres all the niff naff and triv to do, so they don't just "glide all day", but provide a professional service to the UK largest gliding school operator and best voluntary youth organisation..

Thank you for enlightening me.
Its possible that I am not as familiar to the organisation as yourself. However, on a more serious note, as one is entitled to have as opinion, I do feel that in times of conflict and when our regular boys are out in the Gulf without the right clothing or hardware, that taxpayers money is misplaced on such activities. I am not Pro War in the slightest. I simply feel that those guys are going out there on a shoe string. And the RAF are still pouring bucket loads of cash into ATC. How much does one Glider cost? How many do they have? they reducing the RAF all the time and i just think the priorities are all to . end of lecture.

[tmmorris]

And where do you think the RAF of 2010, 2015 or 2020 will come from?

T

[DK338]

I do feel that in times of conflict and when our regular boys are out in the Gulf without the right clothing or hardware, that taxpayers money is misplaced on such activities. I am not Pro War in the slightest. I simply feel that those guys are going out there on a shoe string. And the RAF are still pouring bucket loads of cash into ATC. How much does one Glider cost? How many do they have? they reducing the RAF all the time and i just think the priorities are all to . end of lecture.

Couldn't agree more! But what really grips my sh!t are people noncing around in military uniforms with no military service and I do not mean RNR/TA/RAuxAF.

Do not misunderstand me, I am fully aware of the value of any youth organisation but where youth leaders are allowed to hold the Queens Commission in a military organisation without ever having fulfilled any military service then I do have an issue. Since becoming more involved with the ATC I have become increasingly aware of people who have no desire to join the regular service but instead see the ATC as a good way in without any of the commitment expected for the wearing of the uniform. A recent example is a CWO who openly stated that he saw military life as too dangerous but still 'fancied' being an officer. A VR(T) commission was his chosen path.

My suggestion would be that VR(T) officers would become ATC officers, wear different coloured rank badges, in a similar vein to the ROC, be given different titles and wear the ATC CI style badge as a collar dog on the No1 with the same badge being used as a hat/cap badge. And no right to use the respective messes, you earn the right to use these facilities and no member of the ATC, unless of course they are ex regular SNCO/Commissioned, has earned that right!

As for the cadets, they wouldn't know any better!

And where do you think the RAF of 2010, 2015 or 2020 will come from?

Ah that old chestnut, where they always get them from - civvy street. Don't overplay your position, if you honestly believe that the ATC is the single source of personnel for the future RAF you're living in dreamland. I would argue, and this is from first hand experience, that some of the worst examples of the RAF are ex ATC. I have rather wondered about young people who display an unhealthy interest in militarism, rather more keen on the youngster who joins for the adventure than the drill and military crap myself.

[Maple 01]

Ah, bloody hell, I'll bite, I was sick of Eurovision anyway!

Ah that old chestnut, where they always get them from - civvy street. Don't overplay your position, if you honestly believe that the ATC is the single source of personnel for the future RAF you're living in dreamland.

So the time honoured 60% Officers and 40% Airmen are ex-ATC is tripe then? I know we had an 'outing' session in the bar on det and of seven of us, three officers, three NCOs and 1 Airman all were ex ATC/CCF.

Couldn't agree more! But what really grips my sh!t are people noncing around in military uniforms with no military service and I do not mean RNR/TA/RAuxAF

With the passing of the generations that served during the war or National Service cadets is the main exposure kids get to the Armed Forces apart from Hollywood blockbusters . Without the hard work of the VR(T) and ATC staff that have never worn HM’s uniform (of whatever colour) ‘in anger’ the cadet system would collapse – there aren’t enough of us old bastards to go round and many of us don’t have the time to commit to uniformed service.

I have rather wondered about young people who display an unhealthy interest in militarism, rather more keen on the youngster who joins for the adventure than the drill and military crap myself.

Whilst I was a cadet and later when serving I was never that keen of that side of life either, nor with the creeping 'greening' of the RAF, introduction of the Fitness tests and other cr@p that took me away from my primary role! Then we went all expeditionary and there was some point to it.

I see in some of our male cadets the macho pseudo military posturing that you deplore so much, and go out of my way to point out that's not how the RAF works - We need thinkers not cannon fodder, and eventually they'll grow out of it, if Halton/Cranwell are doing their jobs properly round about day 2 - sadly I'm not allowed to kick it out of them (though came close last week ). The girls strangely enough don’t seem to go through this phase – I may have to put bromide in the lads tea….

[Shaft109]

I spent 2 years at a VGS in the North West, and 6 years in the ATC. In that time I personally knew 6 people who are now regular officers, and 3 lads who are now Commercial pilots, one in NATS and 4 in the RAF ground trades- hopefully that will be 4 Commercials pilots when I get there - so on that count the system is producing lots of air minded people, and I thought that was the point of the ATC/VGS/UAS?

[DK338]

Ho hum here we go,

So the time honoured 60% Officers and 40% Airmen are ex-ATC is tripe then?

Actually that's not what I said, what I did say though was:

Ah that old chestnut, where they always get them from - civvy street. Don't overplay your position, if you honestly believe that the ATC is the single source of personnel for the future RAF you're living in dreamland.

Not denying the contribution that the ACO makes to RAF recruitment, bearing in mind of course that officially it is not a recruiting tool for the RAF, but these figures only serve to illustrate that 40% of officers and 60% of airmen come from outside of the ACO. Also they're stats and I have a deep mistrust of any statistical data produced by a government department.

With the passing of the generations that served during the war or National Service cadets is the main exposure kids get to the Armed Forces apart from Hollywood blockbusters . Without the hard work of the VR(T) and ATC staff that have never worn HM’s uniform (of whatever colour) ‘in anger’ the cadet system would collapse – there aren’t enough of us old bastards to go round and many of us don’t have the time to commit to uniformed service.

Can't disagree with you on this Maple old boy, mind you I decided to put on a uniform for the very reasons you highlight. Sad really that so few ex regulars actually do get involved, but from my experiences so far with mates who are still serving their view of the ATC is very poor. Bumped into an old boss who is now a pretty senior chap a few weeks ago in an Officers' Mess, he was initially delighted that I had decided to leap across into the dark side until I told him it was with the ACO, his reaction was less than enthusiastic although being the gent that he is he didn't actually say anything.

I spent 2 years at a VGS in the North West, and 6 years in the ATC. In that time I personally knew 6 people who are now regular officers, and 3 lads who are now Commercial pilots, one in NATS and 4 in the RAF ground trades- hopefully that will be 4 Commercials pilots when I get there - so on that count the system is producing lots of air minded people, and I thought that was the point of the ATC/VGS/UAS?

This data although superficially impressive tells me nothing other than that you were already interested in aviation and the ATC probably did little to influence you or your buddies.

[mgdaviso]

Originally Posted by Ops and Mops

Would I be right in thinking you mean the RAuxAF? (Royal Auxiliary Air Force)
Not quite the "RAF's TA......" although I know where you are coming from with that statement!
Again a little bit of confusion here.
The RAF Reserve (RAFR) is made up of many different classes which dictates the call up liability for those serving in the reserve. This ranges from the "regular Reserve" which are those who have completed their regular service engagement and are transferred to the reserve but still have a full call up liability; Sponsored Reservists (such as the Mobile Met Unit), who work for an MoD contractor (such as the Met Office) but are required to deploy on full call up liability as part of their contract; Some reservists employed by the MoD in the Military Support Function in Full Time Reserve Service on Home Commitment (ie no overseas deployment) that includes the old J class, now known as the RAFR (Civilian Component).
I think that your statement "NOT, by any stretch of the imagination the "real" RAF." for those guys and gals of the RAFR that are serving in Basra, Kabul, Kandahar, Oman, Bosnia et al is maybe a little off target.

Apols - my knowledge of the RAFR was lacking - upon reading your post I now remember the guys n gals of 1359 flight who are of course - ex regulars,retained as RAFR to fly the hercs.
No disrespect intended - just a senior moment of forgetfullnes... The RAFR I was talking about were the ones I have most exposure to, in them being the J class reserve, who of course have done their time and earned their respect, but are now generally just civil servants wearing a uniform.
and yes I meant RAuxAF - it was a typo.
DK338 - Haven't you said all this about four pages back... It was cr@p then and it's still cr@p now.

[Ornithologist]

Where were you?

Originally Posted by dazjs

Thank you for enlightening me.
Its possible that I am not as familiar to the organisation as yourself. However, on a more serious note, as one is entitled to have as opinion, I do feel that in times of conflict and when our regular boys are out in the Gulf without the right clothing or hardware, that taxpayers money is misplaced on such activities. I am not Pro War in the slightest. I simply feel that those guys are going out there on a shoe string. And the RAF are still pouring bucket loads of cash into ATC. How much does one Glider cost? How many do they have? they reducing the RAF all the time and i just think the priorities are all to . end of lecture.

Just how many of those Regular Folks 'Out there' in the Gulf do you think went through the ATC/CCF? - a very large percentage!. I dont think they begrudge the ATC its existence, or its funds, & the time & effort of ATC & VR(T) Volunteers who helped send out better prepared and well rounded personnel. Let them speak for themselves.

Any organisation that does not invest in its future is bound to fall... That is why the Government ergo, the RAF, recognises that it has to invest in the countries future, not just today, with the training and investment they make in the Corps.

The current conflicts will fade away, then the next one comes along, such is the nature of conflict, but to dismantle 1000 ATC squadrons, plus VGS's, AEF's, Training Centres etc not to mention all the Property, across the country for a perceived short term financial gain would cost the Country considerably more and take a virtually impossible amount of time and effort to attempt to recreate it in times of greater need.

The AFB & The AMP downwards make these decisions, you have to abide by those decisions made within the organs of Government & by our Senior Officers who help make the policy, thats why its a Service, not a meritocracy..

Dajzs, yes you are cleary not familiar with the organisation, and yes you are entitled to an opinion, however an INFORMED opinion is best. Go and bone up a bit more on the Detail, Dig beneath the gloss. If you had you would have realised the true value of the ATC and why its essential to invest

The disgraceful situation of our Boys & Girls out there not having the right equipment and protection is a different, and far more important discussion

[Ops and Mops]

I now remember the guys n gals of 1359 flight who are of course - ex regulars,retained as RAFR to fly the hercs.

They are actually in the RAuxAF along with the few RAuxAF F3 Jockeys that are still around! (All collectively known as Reservist Aircrew)

The RAFR aircrew you may come across away from ACCGS are the Aviaton Officer (AvO) Grades in the RAFR(CC) generally employed in the Flying Training systems as QFI's. More "Civil Servants in Blue suits", but most with quite experienced and/or distinguished regular service backgrounds.

[SirToppamHat]

The disgraceful situation of our Boys & Girls out there not having the right equipment and protection is a different, and far more important discussion

... and absolutely nothing to do with the tiny amount of money (in relative terms) that the Air Training Corps costs the taxpayer.

STH

[Ornithologist]

Originally Posted by plans123

Sorry, but did I miss something? are Spacey Squadrons now being awarded them as well???

Its been going on for at least 30 years to my knowledge & experience, probably far far longer... another case of UNfamiliarity breeding contempt.

Again, anyone reading the history of the ADCC/ATC would understand the true nature of the Corps role and its relationship with the Armed Forces and we would not even be discussing this.

Guys, please, go and study the Corps in more detail before coming up with such uninformed trivia .

In 1938, a year before our time of greatest need, A visionary AOC recognised the need for the ADCC, the ATC as is later became. Lets not try to decry or dismantle it, only to bemoan its demise in a time of greater need that will inevtiably come one day even if that day is far away.

Many older Cadets 'served' in WWII at their local stations in menial but useful tasks helping to ground handle aircraft etc, releasing service personnel for better things, until their own call ups and in many cases deaths. Bet ya didn't know that !