Why are people leaving in droves ?
PPatRoN
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: England
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Merely as a general observation, I think Prof Onora O'Neill's insights in the 2002 Reith Lectures (well worth a read - should be compulsory, as should Sir Ernest Gower's Plain Words) may be pertinent.
When an organisation becomes morbidly obsessed with transparency, accountability, and blame avoidance, the organisation's core activities suffer (as do the people who joined it to do those core activities).
I was inspired by a tale of a Customs officer whose personal policy was to place every memo from above into a "maturing" pile. If, after three months, he'd not had a follow-up demanding to know why he hadn't acted on it, he threw it away.
adr
When an organisation becomes morbidly obsessed with transparency, accountability, and blame avoidance, the organisation's core activities suffer (as do the people who joined it to do those core activities).
I was inspired by a tale of a Customs officer whose personal policy was to place every memo from above into a "maturing" pile. If, after three months, he'd not had a follow-up demanding to know why he hadn't acted on it, he threw it away.
adr
6-weasel-3, no mate, I haven't met him. But I've met a few other Tiggers-on-springs in my time, bouncing from wall to wall to impress their bosses.
Few wise Owls though.....
Few wise Owls though.....
Can we expect a mini surge of 50+ yr olds on the PA spine to leave once we get past April, and they are safely established on the new pension system? I know some in this bracket who joined at the age of 18, and therefore have now qualified for about 50% of their pay as a pension under the new scheme!
At least one person I know in this situation is planning to leave post April!
At least one person I know in this situation is planning to leave post April!
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can we expect a mini surge of 50+ yr olds on the PA spine to leave once we get past April?
But they will also realise that by staying until age 55 they will retire with a full pension of about £32k a year - which is about £7000 a year more than that had expected under the old pension scheme. So the school's out on what the overall impact will be. Personally, I think that people will be more likely to stay until age 55 - which would mean that there would be far fewer slots available for assimilation at age 38. It's interesting to note that Binnworth seem reluctant to assimilate anyone for service beyond their 38 point at the moment - perhaps that's part of the reason.
My poster recently told me to carefully consider my offer of assimilation as they are "Like Rocking Horse 5h1t".
Last edited by LFFC; 20th Dec 2005 at 22:33.
LFFC
I realise, as I am sure the individuals concerned do, that by staying to 55 the final pension is larger than that received by leaving several years earlier. This thread is all about people 'leaving in droves', the reason for which all comes down to dissatisfaction, in whatever form, of their current job, conditions of service, leadership,...etc.
My point is that I know several 50+ yr old aircrew who are dissatisfied and actively considering leaving (at 50+ with your kids grown up and financial commitments reduced some guys don't want to spend 6mths every year somewhere hot and sunny being told what to do by crap leadership - disagree with that or critise them if you want, 'they took the Queen's shilling, etc' - that is a whole different debate, but some have had enough and are planning to quit, as they are perfectly entitled to do!). However, for them, waiting a few more months, until after April, can make a considerable difference financially under the new pension scheme - assuming their mind is already made up to go it is just a case of when gives them the best deal. They therefore, apart from crewroom chat/gossip, do not show up in the current numbers leaving, and will not do so for several months.
I was simply wondering how significant this group was throughout the services, as I can only comment on the small portion of the military I am exposed to, and whether we would indeed see a 'mini surge' out the doors, as I put it, after April.
I realise, as I am sure the individuals concerned do, that by staying to 55 the final pension is larger than that received by leaving several years earlier. This thread is all about people 'leaving in droves', the reason for which all comes down to dissatisfaction, in whatever form, of their current job, conditions of service, leadership,...etc.
My point is that I know several 50+ yr old aircrew who are dissatisfied and actively considering leaving (at 50+ with your kids grown up and financial commitments reduced some guys don't want to spend 6mths every year somewhere hot and sunny being told what to do by crap leadership - disagree with that or critise them if you want, 'they took the Queen's shilling, etc' - that is a whole different debate, but some have had enough and are planning to quit, as they are perfectly entitled to do!). However, for them, waiting a few more months, until after April, can make a considerable difference financially under the new pension scheme - assuming their mind is already made up to go it is just a case of when gives them the best deal. They therefore, apart from crewroom chat/gossip, do not show up in the current numbers leaving, and will not do so for several months.
I was simply wondering how significant this group was throughout the services, as I can only comment on the small portion of the military I am exposed to, and whether we would indeed see a 'mini surge' out the doors, as I put it, after April.
To get this topic back on track how about the following:
Contractorisation
Civilianisation
Fewer uniformed personnel so duties come round more often whilst the 2 mentioned above pull the "Not my job mate" or "Not in the contract" cards
Jointery (for which read green)
"Superbases"
Sale of Married Quarters
IIP
H&SAW - IOT studes wearing gloves and helmets when constructing tripods from pine pools!!
EO
PC - rumour has it an IOT stude has complained because he was called a p**f for wearing gloves on a cold morning
Force reductions - not, as many say, because we can do more with less but because we cannot afford to keep what we have
PFIs
Reduced promotion prospects for those that want it
A bu**ered up training system when we once had one of the best
A dumbed down training system
Civilian registered aircraft
Decimation of the medical services - what IDIOT agreed to keeping that centrally located hospital at Haslar?
Operational fitness tests - a test desgined by......a rock ape without a sense of reality!!
Just a few that spring immediately to mind. Merry Christmas.
Contractorisation
Civilianisation
Fewer uniformed personnel so duties come round more often whilst the 2 mentioned above pull the "Not my job mate" or "Not in the contract" cards
Jointery (for which read green)
"Superbases"
Sale of Married Quarters
IIP
H&SAW - IOT studes wearing gloves and helmets when constructing tripods from pine pools!!
EO
PC - rumour has it an IOT stude has complained because he was called a p**f for wearing gloves on a cold morning
Force reductions - not, as many say, because we can do more with less but because we cannot afford to keep what we have
PFIs
Reduced promotion prospects for those that want it
A bu**ered up training system when we once had one of the best
A dumbed down training system
Civilian registered aircraft
Decimation of the medical services - what IDIOT agreed to keeping that centrally located hospital at Haslar?
Operational fitness tests - a test desgined by......a rock ape without a sense of reality!!
Just a few that spring immediately to mind. Merry Christmas.
Well put, Roly.
I don't know how a loyal, hard-working and enthusiastic mate like your good self can put up with all those things you list.
When some sneak leaked a private e-mail of mine in which I mentioned in passing that civil FI requirements were externally regulated by the JAA rather than being internally set to suit a budget as they seemed to be in the military, it led to a hat-on Axminster shuffle. Which made pulling the black-and-yellow even more certain for yours truly.
Getting into the dwang for telling the truth, as one NCO aircrew chum described it.
Another black-and-yellow incentive at the time was that to transfer to the PA spine and benefit from the enhanced pension was not permitted for those who, like me, had under 5 years to go to NRD. When nothing came out in the 2003 pay announcement to compensate for this, there was clearly not even a significant financial incentive to stay. Knowing that my immediate pension was going to be around 95% of that which I would receive at NRD - and facing a shrinking fun bucket and ever-filling $hit bucket, there was no real choice.
I don't know how a loyal, hard-working and enthusiastic mate like your good self can put up with all those things you list.
When some sneak leaked a private e-mail of mine in which I mentioned in passing that civil FI requirements were externally regulated by the JAA rather than being internally set to suit a budget as they seemed to be in the military, it led to a hat-on Axminster shuffle. Which made pulling the black-and-yellow even more certain for yours truly.
Getting into the dwang for telling the truth, as one NCO aircrew chum described it.
Another black-and-yellow incentive at the time was that to transfer to the PA spine and benefit from the enhanced pension was not permitted for those who, like me, had under 5 years to go to NRD. When nothing came out in the 2003 pay announcement to compensate for this, there was clearly not even a significant financial incentive to stay. Knowing that my immediate pension was going to be around 95% of that which I would receive at NRD - and facing a shrinking fun bucket and ever-filling $hit bucket, there was no real choice.
Last edited by BEagle; 21st Dec 2005 at 08:36.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: door or ramp, don't mind.
Posts: 961
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I mentioned in passing that civil FI requirements were externally regulated by the JAA rather than being internally set to suit a budget as they seemed to be in the military
for the job who won't make too much noise, what-what?
PC - rumour has it an IOT stude has complained because he was called a p**f for wearing gloves on a cold morning
God alone knows how folk like this are permitted to exist in a system which once offered press-ups in the snow for wearing gloves without permission
If Diddums is reading, poke off home to mum.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Age: 44
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PC - rumour has it an IOT stude has complained because he was called a p**f for wearing gloves on a cold morning
Oh dear oh dear oh dear.
Oh dear oh dear oh dear.
Just because you had a beasting at the start of your military career; times have changed so face the facts. Accept the PC nature of the world and get on with your job. If someone wants to wear gloves, let them. If you got a problem with it - keep your mouth shut, and dont pass derogative comments.
Whilst on this topic, the RAF and all armed forces need to step into the 21st century and change it's culture towards; bullying, harrasment, drinking..........
Airline pilots get put in jail for the smallest smell of alcohol in their breath; Why is the same not for the military?? Perhaps it is only a minority but ive seen pilots pi$$ed up till 3am; then climing into aircraft at 8am!!!
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 664
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PC - rumour has it an IOT stude has complained because he was called a p**f for wearing gloves on a cold morning
Whether this chap is or isn't gay, the temperature of his hands has sod all to do with his sexuality. The instructor will have offended him if he was straight and will have offended any gay students present.
The instructor should grow up as should anyone who finds his behaviour acceptable.
Yours,
AT
(a warm-handed poof without gloves).
"You soft so-and-so" or "You big girl's blouse" would probably have been OK - but unnecessary. Whereas "You poof" obviously would quite obviously not have been.
Wearing gloves without permission? Dear me no - crucifixion for a first offence. Nail some sense into him!
Years ago in the Summer of '69 (cue Bryan Adams) I was in the queue for the bank at RAFC Cranwell in my horrid blue horsehair uniform as I had some tedious form to fill out. Also in the queue was another Flt Cdt, plus several officers and airmen. Joining the queue was Wg Cdr Cadets or some such luminary. He spotted that the other Flt Cdt was wearing dark glasses and bellowed "YOU - outside NOW!". He then proceded to chew him out for having the temerity to wear sun glasses in uniform. This was a real Niedermeyer 'Pledge Pin' performance. When mate was asked to explain himself, he merely replied "Sir, the SMO insisted that I should wear these glasses due to an eye infection". They then rejoined the queue. On arrival at the counter, the bank cashier looked up and said "I think the young man was before you, Wing Commander".
Good to see a hectoring, abusive bully put in his place!
Wearing gloves without permission? Dear me no - crucifixion for a first offence. Nail some sense into him!
Years ago in the Summer of '69 (cue Bryan Adams) I was in the queue for the bank at RAFC Cranwell in my horrid blue horsehair uniform as I had some tedious form to fill out. Also in the queue was another Flt Cdt, plus several officers and airmen. Joining the queue was Wg Cdr Cadets or some such luminary. He spotted that the other Flt Cdt was wearing dark glasses and bellowed "YOU - outside NOW!". He then proceded to chew him out for having the temerity to wear sun glasses in uniform. This was a real Niedermeyer 'Pledge Pin' performance. When mate was asked to explain himself, he merely replied "Sir, the SMO insisted that I should wear these glasses due to an eye infection". They then rejoined the queue. On arrival at the counter, the bank cashier looked up and said "I think the young man was before you, Wing Commander".
Good to see a hectoring, abusive bully put in his place!
Several years ago (before the current EO era), an ex-Vulcan chum was asked to help out in a SSVC (or was it stil SKC?) movie about Harriers in Belize. This included shots of various grunts doing warry things with big f*** off machine guns etc.
The film director was gay. Not just gay, but a bit 'camp' in a theatrical way. By all accounts a very amusing bloke as well, with a sharp wit. This didn't go down (sorry) terribly well with the grunts...
So, came the day that they had to film the roughy-toughies wandering up rivers with guns looking for baddies, he let them get thoroughly soaked before shrieking in his best John Inman impression "Ooh no, darlings. We need you to do it again - only this time can you be a bit more butch please?". Take 2 - grunts get even wetter and more pi$$ed off. Director squeaks "Still not aggressive enough, sweeties. Really look butch and tough this time...".
About 5 takes later he let them off.
Relevant? Not really, I guess. Just an example of a harrassed minority getting his own back.
The film director was gay. Not just gay, but a bit 'camp' in a theatrical way. By all accounts a very amusing bloke as well, with a sharp wit. This didn't go down (sorry) terribly well with the grunts...
So, came the day that they had to film the roughy-toughies wandering up rivers with guns looking for baddies, he let them get thoroughly soaked before shrieking in his best John Inman impression "Ooh no, darlings. We need you to do it again - only this time can you be a bit more butch please?". Take 2 - grunts get even wetter and more pi$$ed off. Director squeaks "Still not aggressive enough, sweeties. Really look butch and tough this time...".
About 5 takes later he let them off.
Relevant? Not really, I guess. Just an example of a harrassed minority getting his own back.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 664
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beags
That wouldn't be involving the same chap who appeared in an early nineties GD(P) recruitment flyer sporting the name badge "Ben Dover"? It got all the way to the recruitment offices before it was spotted.
I never heard if there was any retribution from DORIS.
That wouldn't be involving the same chap who appeared in an early nineties GD(P) recruitment flyer sporting the name badge "Ben Dover"? It got all the way to the recruitment offices before it was spotted.
I never heard if there was any retribution from DORIS.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Getting back on topic also:
It's quite simple, peolple leave the RAF if they perceive an alternative will provide a better quality of life.
Most pilots realise the airforce provides the best flying. They also soon discover it does not provide the best lifestyle. They certainly find out that having a family and remaining on the front line are not particuarly compatible.
When the airlines recruit RAF pilots are given choice. Peolple are leaving in droves because the airforce can't compete with the alternative employers. The ONLY two areas the RAF beats an airline are quality of flying and the pension. However, eating your lunch and tucking into the cheese board whilst gazing at the Alps is not such a bad thing, and the pension, well, it will just cost you a little more to retire on the same amount. BUT, why not have an enjoyable 30s and 40s than wish them away?
For what it's worth, I left earlier this year. I didn't even complete my 6 years return of service. When I asked to get out quickly they were over manned and were keen to let me go! I was at the front of the stampede......
Life on the other side is a huge improvement. I go to work, fly an aeroplane, come home and see my family........ I live in a house, and won't have to move every 3 years. I get discount travel, private health insurance and I don't do aircraft doc ammendments. I am not surrounded by **** licking individuals organising this and that for selfish reasons. I feel as if I have left childish politics and entered the real world.
The RAF is a fantastic place. There are scores of decent hard-working people and opportunities and experiences simply not available in the civilian world. It is spoilt by a handful of selfish individuals and an inability to make service life even remotely intune with modern family living.
Push and pull factors:
At the moment:
BIG PUSH + BIG PULL = LEAVING IN DROVES!
It's quite simple, peolple leave the RAF if they perceive an alternative will provide a better quality of life.
Most pilots realise the airforce provides the best flying. They also soon discover it does not provide the best lifestyle. They certainly find out that having a family and remaining on the front line are not particuarly compatible.
When the airlines recruit RAF pilots are given choice. Peolple are leaving in droves because the airforce can't compete with the alternative employers. The ONLY two areas the RAF beats an airline are quality of flying and the pension. However, eating your lunch and tucking into the cheese board whilst gazing at the Alps is not such a bad thing, and the pension, well, it will just cost you a little more to retire on the same amount. BUT, why not have an enjoyable 30s and 40s than wish them away?
For what it's worth, I left earlier this year. I didn't even complete my 6 years return of service. When I asked to get out quickly they were over manned and were keen to let me go! I was at the front of the stampede......
Life on the other side is a huge improvement. I go to work, fly an aeroplane, come home and see my family........ I live in a house, and won't have to move every 3 years. I get discount travel, private health insurance and I don't do aircraft doc ammendments. I am not surrounded by **** licking individuals organising this and that for selfish reasons. I feel as if I have left childish politics and entered the real world.
The RAF is a fantastic place. There are scores of decent hard-working people and opportunities and experiences simply not available in the civilian world. It is spoilt by a handful of selfish individuals and an inability to make service life even remotely intune with modern family living.
Push and pull factors:
At the moment:
BIG PUSH + BIG PULL = LEAVING IN DROVES!
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
People leaving in droves = me getting out of this ground tour and back into a cockpit! Fantastic! All I need to do now is persuade the poster that he needs to put those who are leaving into a ground tour until their exit date, freeing up frontline slots for those of us who wish to be there (PMA take note, I will be calling in the New Year! Quote me happy, please..........)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AT - Problem is that you end up with a position that any word can be misconstrued - indeed in the 1930's and 40's calling someone
gay wasn't deemed in the same way as it is now. Indeed in the RAF I remember many people being refered to as a 'W****R' - with retrospect this was more than likely sexist !
gay wasn't deemed in the same way as it is now. Indeed in the RAF I remember many people being refered to as a 'W****R' - with retrospect this was more than likely sexist !