JSF to Lossie, MR4A to Kinloss
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Ranger
I seem to recall reading somewhere that Typhoon will not actually need reheat on take off for most sorties. Perhaps someone with a closer working knowledge of Typhoon can confirmn that ?
Safety_Helmut
I seem to recall reading somewhere that Typhoon will not actually need reheat on take off for most sorties. Perhaps someone with a closer working knowledge of Typhoon can confirmn that ?
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Indeed it doesnt require reheat and from the many pictures of aircraft departing CBY I have seen recently, they are not using it at all.Just goes to show how powerful the engines actually are.
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Or how light it is with no payload
Hang on a minute.
Since when did that become a reliable source of local facilities. The first time I ever tried it (a long time ago granted) it gave me a route from Finningley to somewhere in Ayrshire via Glasgow, Dunoon, back over to Gourock on the ferry and down the coast!
Good to see it\'s still spouting sh**!
BTW Beags is that what you had to resort to on the Dog when you weren't issued with a nav?
Hang on a minute.
From Microsoft Autoroute:
Good to see it\'s still spouting sh**!
BTW Beags is that what you had to resort to on the Dog when you weren't issued with a nav?
Last edited by Griz; 20th Nov 2005 at 07:09.
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Typhoon is noisier (like for like) than F3 at particular power settings. Di-Con nozzles and all that. Typhoon produces more thrust both dry and wet. Point is converting that thrust to forward motion is a lot less of a problem. Noise production is a function of drag (excess energy). Work it out yourself. More you stick on that increase drag the more noise you are going to make.
Typhoon will get airborne without RH. Nice young things in cockpit wanting to impress the girlfriend will proably ignore that fact, so aircraft will carry a tag of being noisy.
BEagle, I notice in your comparison you missed one very important factor. You did not include Marham i your analysis. As one of the handful of bases left once the North-South devide has been created it is a hole, and that is where lots of people will have to work.
Choise of Moray or Swamp, I know were I will be off.
Typhoon will get airborne without RH. Nice young things in cockpit wanting to impress the girlfriend will proably ignore that fact, so aircraft will carry a tag of being noisy.
BEagle, I notice in your comparison you missed one very important factor. You did not include Marham i your analysis. As one of the handful of bases left once the North-South devide has been created it is a hole, and that is where lots of people will have to work.
Choise of Moray or Swamp, I know were I will be off.
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At the ACCGS feeder at Syerston back in the early nineties I personally witnessed the Jock cabbage mechanic deep-fry a pizza. Out of morbid curiosity, I actually tried some. Strangely enough, it was absolutely minging.
The chippy that's about 1/4 mile from the gates at Leuchars used to do deep-fried Mars bars. By the way, is there anyone out there who can tell me what the hell that "sauce", found in every Scottish chippy, is supposed to be?
The chippy that's about 1/4 mile from the gates at Leuchars used to do deep-fried Mars bars. By the way, is there anyone out there who can tell me what the hell that "sauce", found in every Scottish chippy, is supposed to be?
OK then,
Hospitals: Marham 1
Hotels and motels: Marham 33
Petrol and Auto Services: Marham 167
Railway stations: Marham 9
Restaurants: Marham 21
Pubs: Marham 41
And no, I certainly don't consider that Microsoft Autoroute is always right. But whatever sorting criteria they use for selection of entries must surely be universal, so comparisons may well be valid.
Leuchars even used to provide 'jock pies' as part of our in-flight rations. Absolutely gopping and layered in grease...
Hospitals: Marham 1
Hotels and motels: Marham 33
Petrol and Auto Services: Marham 167
Railway stations: Marham 9
Restaurants: Marham 21
Pubs: Marham 41
And no, I certainly don't consider that Microsoft Autoroute is always right. But whatever sorting criteria they use for selection of entries must surely be universal, so comparisons may well be valid.
Leuchars even used to provide 'jock pies' as part of our in-flight rations. Absolutely gopping and layered in grease...
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BEagle,
I agree with your principle, but I think Microsoft must be using flawed data.
Point is RAF culture is changing. Personnel spend so much time away now that all they want to do is come home to a "base". If promotion means moving twenty miles down the road rather than the other end of Britain then thats what will happen.
Good bases are being doomed by NIMBY's.
Bad bases are being saved by vote buying.
Good thing for Scottish the bases is Easyjet.
Additionally, some pepole in Scotland like the fact that they have at least a days warning of intended visitations.
I agree with your principle, but I think Microsoft must be using flawed data.
Point is RAF culture is changing. Personnel spend so much time away now that all they want to do is come home to a "base". If promotion means moving twenty miles down the road rather than the other end of Britain then thats what will happen.
Good bases are being doomed by NIMBY's.
Bad bases are being saved by vote buying.
Good thing for Scottish the bases is Easyjet.
Additionally, some pepole in Scotland like the fact that they have at least a days warning of intended visitations.
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Maybe someone should tell the government that our basing policy should be founded on what people have found on a commercial piece of computer software, rather than operational and economic needs.
Or is that too much like common sense and not xenophobic enough for this thread?
Or is that too much like common sense and not xenophobic enough for this thread?
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Humingfrog wrote:
Hallelujah - at last someone talking sense. There has been so much crap spouted about the Lossie/Kinloss area, clearly from those who know nothing about it - to quote microsoft autoroute - PMSL.
OK, there are RAF personnel/families who do not like this area, but the thousands who have settled here after getting out, plus the thousands of still serving who have been here donkey's years by choice outweights this.
Beagle - you are clearly sitting there with your anti-jockistani blinkers on - thank goodness there are plenty who think otherwise.
ex- RAF (briefly), current Jock (long-term), happily resident in Moray.
Beagle you have obviously not been posted to either Lossie or Kinloss and are talking without that foundation. What you say can therefore be discounted in any reasonable argument.
I have been stationed at Lossie and still fly out of Kinloss and it is one of the best areas of the UK to live. It would have been interesting if you had included in your list the number of :-
1. Murders - there have been 2 in my time here and they are both still being talked about as they are so rare
2. Rapes.
3. Child abuse cases.
4. Assaults.
5. Robberies.
This area is still a law abiding area in which people are interested and look after their neighbours. I used to let my kids (boy and girl) wander to their hearts content, with their mates, in the fields and gorse around our village knowing that they were perfectly safe. Someone would always be keeping an eye on them because they were "village kids" and your neighbours would always be aware of what was going on.
I also find it quite an eyeopener being a member of an ethnic minority (I'm 1/2 English 1/2 Welsh) although being married to a Scot means that I'm only called a white settler in jest (I think).
The reasons that Kinloss and Lossie are being kept open has been well documented and boils down mainly to economics. If you shut the bases they aren't worth anything and you would then have to support the area from the general tax account.
Secondary considerations are that the wx factor here is excellent and the training areas are on the doorstep. Tain range for the FJs and Moray Firth for the Nimrod
The "English" are also becoming very NIMBY and would probably want endless enquiries if a noisy jet was imposed on them.
Let the aircraft be based in the most suitable economic and operational area and accept that that is Scotland and forget how far it is from that awful place called London
HF
I have been stationed at Lossie and still fly out of Kinloss and it is one of the best areas of the UK to live. It would have been interesting if you had included in your list the number of :-
1. Murders - there have been 2 in my time here and they are both still being talked about as they are so rare
2. Rapes.
3. Child abuse cases.
4. Assaults.
5. Robberies.
This area is still a law abiding area in which people are interested and look after their neighbours. I used to let my kids (boy and girl) wander to their hearts content, with their mates, in the fields and gorse around our village knowing that they were perfectly safe. Someone would always be keeping an eye on them because they were "village kids" and your neighbours would always be aware of what was going on.
I also find it quite an eyeopener being a member of an ethnic minority (I'm 1/2 English 1/2 Welsh) although being married to a Scot means that I'm only called a white settler in jest (I think).
The reasons that Kinloss and Lossie are being kept open has been well documented and boils down mainly to economics. If you shut the bases they aren't worth anything and you would then have to support the area from the general tax account.
Secondary considerations are that the wx factor here is excellent and the training areas are on the doorstep. Tain range for the FJs and Moray Firth for the Nimrod
The "English" are also becoming very NIMBY and would probably want endless enquiries if a noisy jet was imposed on them.
Let the aircraft be based in the most suitable economic and operational area and accept that that is Scotland and forget how far it is from that awful place called London
HF
OK, there are RAF personnel/families who do not like this area, but the thousands who have settled here after getting out, plus the thousands of still serving who have been here donkey's years by choice outweights this.
Beagle - you are clearly sitting there with your anti-jockistani blinkers on - thank goodness there are plenty who think otherwise.
ex- RAF (briefly), current Jock (long-term), happily resident in Moray.
From a 'profile of Moray' in scotland.org:
The local economy also relies heavily on the presence of two major RAF bases, which comprise 12 percent of Moray’s overall workforce. Moray is a fragile, remote area, which has the lowest average wages in Scotland together with a high dependency on the car with fuel costs comprising an increasing part of the household budget. There are high levels of demand for affordable housing resulting from the low wage economy within Moray.
Which must surely have been a major factor in the JSF basing decision.
I'm glad you enjoy it - and thanks for all the malt!
The local economy also relies heavily on the presence of two major RAF bases, which comprise 12 percent of Moray’s overall workforce. Moray is a fragile, remote area, which has the lowest average wages in Scotland together with a high dependency on the car with fuel costs comprising an increasing part of the household budget. There are high levels of demand for affordable housing resulting from the low wage economy within Moray.
Which must surely have been a major factor in the JSF basing decision.
I'm glad you enjoy it - and thanks for all the malt!
Well thank you HighlandSniper58.
I shall print out your post and show it to my wife who as a Scot thinks I sometimes rant as only an Englishman(1/2) can
HF
(house prices already going up post announcement - 5 bed house with land may soon reach £250,000
)
I shall print out your post and show it to my wife who as a Scot thinks I sometimes rant as only an Englishman(1/2) can
HF
(house prices already going up post announcement - 5 bed house with land may soon reach £250,000
)
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I'm glad you enjoy it
"An Englishman's home is his castle" There are dozens in Scotland but we don't hide behind the walls.
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BEagle sees sense at last.............
I certainly hope so - only paid £32k for mine in 1986!
I couldn't have put it better myself.
Now chaps/chapesses, can we put this one to bed now and accept the basing of the MRA.4/JSF decision?
From a 'profile of Moray' in scotland.org:
The local economy also relies heavily on the presence of two major RAF bases, which comprise 12 percent of Moray’s overall workforce. Moray is a fragile, remote area, which has the lowest average wages in Scotland together with a high dependency on the car with fuel costs comprising an increasing part of the household budget. There are high levels of demand for affordable housing resulting from the low wage economy within Moray.
Which must surely have been a major factor in the JSF basing decision.
I'm glad you enjoy it - and thanks for all the malt!
The local economy also relies heavily on the presence of two major RAF bases, which comprise 12 percent of Moray’s overall workforce. Moray is a fragile, remote area, which has the lowest average wages in Scotland together with a high dependency on the car with fuel costs comprising an increasing part of the household budget. There are high levels of demand for affordable housing resulting from the low wage economy within Moray.
Which must surely have been a major factor in the JSF basing decision.
I'm glad you enjoy it - and thanks for all the malt!
(house prices already going up post announcement - 5 bed house with land may soon reach £250,000 )
We do! Your bourgeoisie attitude betrays a blinkered approach to the realities of life in the UK. The people here manage to get through the day without boring each other to death about money matters (house prices, stock markets etc). They have discovered that quality of life cannot be bought. It is about the people that you interact with on a daily basis. They gladly give freely to each other expecting nothing, but receiving as least as much, in return. It is not unique in Scotland nor in some parts of England.
"An Englishman's home is his castle" There are dozens in Scotland but we don't hide behind the walls.
"An Englishman's home is his castle" There are dozens in Scotland but we don't hide behind the walls.
Now chaps/chapesses, can we put this one to bed now and accept the basing of the MRA.4/JSF decision?
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You all seem to be so blind to the real issue with your scot/english bashing.
At the end of the day regardless of protecting jobs in one area or the other it is about defending the nation and its interests. If this can be achieved by basing JSF at Lossie so be it.
No problem with Nimrod at Kinloss as its an established Nimrod base (so was St. Mawgan but lets not nit pick). Lossie is/was perfect for attempting to stop the red hordes flying over, but that threat is long past.
Now we have to be thinking expeditionary/asymmetric warfare, so if Scotland is the best place to base/train the new naval combat aircraft well do that then. All the FAA guys moving up from Yeovilton have bitched already about moving to East Anglia so why not a LITTLE bit further north. After all retention wont be a problem eh?
At the end of the day regardless of protecting jobs in one area or the other it is about defending the nation and its interests. If this can be achieved by basing JSF at Lossie so be it.
No problem with Nimrod at Kinloss as its an established Nimrod base (so was St. Mawgan but lets not nit pick). Lossie is/was perfect for attempting to stop the red hordes flying over, but that threat is long past.
Now we have to be thinking expeditionary/asymmetric warfare, so if Scotland is the best place to base/train the new naval combat aircraft well do that then. All the FAA guys moving up from Yeovilton have bitched already about moving to East Anglia so why not a LITTLE bit further north. After all retention wont be a problem eh?
All this jock/scotland bashing is revealing (about those writing if nothing else) and fun to watch, but totally irrelevant. The logic behind the decisions is simple enough:
Kinloss/MRA4 - All the senior neddies wanted to close Kinloss and move the MRA4 to Waddo, putting all the ISTAR assets together, better for logistics, less turbulence on posting within the ISTAR world, etc, etc - lots of good military, social, morale, reasons! However, it was all about costs. Having done a lot of work to prepare Kinloss for the MRA4 (in the days when we were buying 18-21) the projected costs for closing Kinloss and moving the MRA4 south (plus preparing Waddo) was huge. I have heard estimates of 500-750 million!! Therefore it was a non starter!! We work annual budgets (10 yr core), the savings made by closing Kinloss would take far too many years to recoup the up front cost of the move!
JSF/Lossie - I understanding is that JSF is very, very noisey - so they were looking for a coastal airfield to reduce the number of noise complaints. If St Mawgan is out of the picture Lossie is the obvious choice. When you hear a JSF WEBF imagine how the good people of Yeovil will react to it being based in their back yard. Rather than doing the people of Elgin a favour the MoD are exporting their noise polution to Scotland.
P.S - BEagle. To the best of my knowledge there are 2 pubs within staggering distance of Kinloss main gate. That is before you consider Findhorn, Forres, Alves, Elgin, Hopeman, Burghead, Nairn...........
Kinloss/MRA4 - All the senior neddies wanted to close Kinloss and move the MRA4 to Waddo, putting all the ISTAR assets together, better for logistics, less turbulence on posting within the ISTAR world, etc, etc - lots of good military, social, morale, reasons! However, it was all about costs. Having done a lot of work to prepare Kinloss for the MRA4 (in the days when we were buying 18-21) the projected costs for closing Kinloss and moving the MRA4 south (plus preparing Waddo) was huge. I have heard estimates of 500-750 million!! Therefore it was a non starter!! We work annual budgets (10 yr core), the savings made by closing Kinloss would take far too many years to recoup the up front cost of the move!
JSF/Lossie - I understanding is that JSF is very, very noisey - so they were looking for a coastal airfield to reduce the number of noise complaints. If St Mawgan is out of the picture Lossie is the obvious choice. When you hear a JSF WEBF imagine how the good people of Yeovil will react to it being based in their back yard. Rather than doing the people of Elgin a favour the MoD are exporting their noise polution to Scotland.
P.S - BEagle. To the best of my knowledge there are 2 pubs within staggering distance of Kinloss main gate. That is before you consider Findhorn, Forres, Alves, Elgin, Hopeman, Burghead, Nairn...........
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politicos?
Who said that the decision to keep the bases open was a stitch up between Jockistani politicians? This seems to overlook the chasm between our local SNP MP Angus Robinson and MOD Minister Adam Ingram who hasn't a nice word to say about him.
If the decision to keep ISK and ISL was a vote getting exercise for New Labour it was a) late b) innefective. We had a mad looking Labour candidate here in Moray during the election saying we needed to vote him in to keep the bases. Instead of that he was beaten into third by the Tories and the SNP romped home with a trebled majority. Go figure!
Labour here in Jockland have been getting a kicking about the RAF job losses, Scottish regimental amalgamations and the general rundown of the military in Scotland. I personally think they are looking over their shoulders at the SNP ahead of the Scottish Assembly elections in 2007.
If the decision to keep ISK and ISL was a vote getting exercise for New Labour it was a) late b) innefective. We had a mad looking Labour candidate here in Moray during the election saying we needed to vote him in to keep the bases. Instead of that he was beaten into third by the Tories and the SNP romped home with a trebled majority. Go figure!
Labour here in Jockland have been getting a kicking about the RAF job losses, Scottish regimental amalgamations and the general rundown of the military in Scotland. I personally think they are looking over their shoulders at the SNP ahead of the Scottish Assembly elections in 2007.
