JSF to Lossie, MR4A to Kinloss
althenick - it'll just be trumpeted about as NooLabia securing more jobs in Jockistan. At national, rather than constituency level....
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But isn't that what happened when the Tories ...
1/ Finished off Rosyth for the Trident refit facility in favour of Guzz?
2/ When they Closed RAF Edzell and moved it all down to Digby / Forrest Moor and Oak?
3/ Closed Machrahannish Without NATO approval
4/ Closed Pitreavie (which afterwards they admitted was a mistake)
5/ Closed RAF Turnhouse
6/ Closed RNAD Crombie
and...
(anger mode activated)
7/ TOTALLY MURDERED THE RNR BY TAKING THEIR (A) SHIPS AND (B) SEA TRAINING CENTRES reducing the number of units in Scotland from 5 to 2 at a stroke.
(anger mode disabled)
... It doesn't matter which government is in power they will always pander to their own constituents - Fact.
1/ Finished off Rosyth for the Trident refit facility in favour of Guzz?
2/ When they Closed RAF Edzell and moved it all down to Digby / Forrest Moor and Oak?
3/ Closed Machrahannish Without NATO approval
4/ Closed Pitreavie (which afterwards they admitted was a mistake)
5/ Closed RAF Turnhouse
6/ Closed RNAD Crombie
and...
(anger mode activated)
7/ TOTALLY MURDERED THE RNR BY TAKING THEIR (A) SHIPS AND (B) SEA TRAINING CENTRES reducing the number of units in Scotland from 5 to 2 at a stroke.
(anger mode disabled)
... It doesn't matter which government is in power they will always pander to their own constituents - Fact.
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I say we give Scotland full independence and in doing so grant them an air force suitable for their needs, say the BBMF and perhaps teeny weenie airways.
Minus the Apache's of course, we wouldn't want the Jockistanis wasting their apparent potential hunting the elusive hill circling beastie that is the haggis.
With the money saved by England not having to subsidise the most unhealthy country in Europe's health system we could buy a whole host of shiny new battlefield helicopters for the RAF to replace the Lynx and screaming chicken leg squadrons.
Of course the loss of the BBMF would be a blow.
Minus the Apache's of course, we wouldn't want the Jockistanis wasting their apparent potential hunting the elusive hill circling beastie that is the haggis.
With the money saved by England not having to subsidise the most unhealthy country in Europe's health system we could buy a whole host of shiny new battlefield helicopters for the RAF to replace the Lynx and screaming chicken leg squadrons.
Of course the loss of the BBMF would be a blow.
Last edited by The Helpful Stacker; 19th Nov 2005 at 15:34.
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THS
How jolly decent of you old chap. However, should Scotland decide to dissolve the union, we'll do it quite happily for ourselves. There is no question of being 'given independance.' 
I say we give Scotland full independence
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Oh how quaint, the Scots still believe they really had a choice about forming a union with England.
Bless.
Bless.
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I knew it, I knew it, I knew it, and I am loving it!
You anti-Jockland, anti-porridge eating, anti-skirt wearing, anti-pipe skirling, anti-highland games bigots, most who have never been north of the border, except for a free lunch land-away because the weather has been cr*p south of Birmingham, have finally come home to roost
If you are semi-retired, fed up and spoilt, like Beags, you are OK!
If you are looking for a career, bite the bullet - otherwise, I suggest you sup up your half pint, hand back the Queen's Shilling to the Press Gang, wash your glass and Sod Off!
ISK & ISL secure for the next 30 years! Rah!
As an aside, tell the missus we have ASDA, B&Q and M&S up here, with public transport every 15 minutes and petrol at 97.4p per litre
Loving many, Trusting a few, north of the border is good for you!
You anti-Jockland, anti-porridge eating, anti-skirt wearing, anti-pipe skirling, anti-highland games bigots, most who have never been north of the border, except for a free lunch land-away because the weather has been cr*p south of Birmingham, have finally come home to roost
If you are semi-retired, fed up and spoilt, like Beags, you are OK!
If you are looking for a career, bite the bullet - otherwise, I suggest you sup up your half pint, hand back the Queen's Shilling to the Press Gang, wash your glass and Sod Off!
ISK & ISL secure for the next 30 years! Rah!
As an aside, tell the missus we have ASDA, B&Q and M&S up here, with public transport every 15 minutes and petrol at 97.4p per litre
Loving many, Trusting a few, north of the border is good for you!
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Petrol 87.9p at Morrisons in Inverness today!!
Had lunch today in a Michelin Star restaraunt,in fact spoilt for choice as far as excellent eateries are concerned.
Tis great listening to all this anti-scottish banter,sour grapes me thinks in a lot of cases.I have spent time at Lyneham,Leeming,Shawbury,Waddo,Leuchars,Lossie and spent short periods at many more including Cotty and Marham.London is not the centre of the universe and I would argue that if you really wanted to get there we have just as good transport links as any of those places.Yeah for a singlie wishing to drive south it is a drag but then again no different for a scot based at Coltishall or wherever wishing to come home.
Whilst at Lyneham,myself and my family used to fly back to Inverness at least once a month,but I am fortunate in that my wife has a career,yes a military wife with a career!!and money wasnt a great issue although for 3 of us it was rarely more than a few hundred quid.
Me thinks a lot bad mouthing up here have either not been at all or certainly not for a long time.
Anyway,might all be pre-empted as the US are looking at pulling the airforce variant of the F35!
Had lunch today in a Michelin Star restaraunt,in fact spoilt for choice as far as excellent eateries are concerned.
Tis great listening to all this anti-scottish banter,sour grapes me thinks in a lot of cases.I have spent time at Lyneham,Leeming,Shawbury,Waddo,Leuchars,Lossie and spent short periods at many more including Cotty and Marham.London is not the centre of the universe and I would argue that if you really wanted to get there we have just as good transport links as any of those places.Yeah for a singlie wishing to drive south it is a drag but then again no different for a scot based at Coltishall or wherever wishing to come home.
Whilst at Lyneham,myself and my family used to fly back to Inverness at least once a month,but I am fortunate in that my wife has a career,yes a military wife with a career!!and money wasnt a great issue although for 3 of us it was rarely more than a few hundred quid.
Me thinks a lot bad mouthing up here have either not been at all or certainly not for a long time.
Anyway,might all be pre-empted as the US are looking at pulling the airforce variant of the F35!
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Oh how quaint, the Scots still believe they really had a choice about forming a union with England.
That was when a Scottish king (James VI) succeeded an English monarch (Elizabeth I) to become King James I of Scotland and England. The term "Britain" became popular in the 18th Century.
So put that in your nancy English shandy glass and drink it!
From Microsoft Autoroute:
Search radius 20 miles
Hospitals: Brize Norton 5 Kinloss 2 Valley 2 Leeming 2 St Mawgan 3 Yeovilton 3
Hotels and motels: Brize Norton 121 Kinloss 19 Valley 26 Leeming 98 St Mawgan 90 Yeovilton 42
Petrol and Auto Services: Brize Norton 231 Kinloss 43 Valley 72 Leeming 163 St Mawgan 167 Yeovilton 235
Railway stations: Brize Norton 18 Kinloss 4 Valley 5 Leeming 12 St Mawgan 18 Yeovilton 13
Restaurants: Brize Norton 145 Kinloss 13 Valley 13 Leeming 73 St Mawgan 57 Yeovilton 54
Pubs: Brize Norton 227 Kinloss 2 Valley 10 Leeming 96 St Mawgan 93 Yeovilton 133
OK - so what. Well, that's just a snapshot of local services all of which have been independently assessed. Draw whatever conclusions you will.
Search radius 20 miles
Hospitals: Brize Norton 5 Kinloss 2 Valley 2 Leeming 2 St Mawgan 3 Yeovilton 3
Hotels and motels: Brize Norton 121 Kinloss 19 Valley 26 Leeming 98 St Mawgan 90 Yeovilton 42
Petrol and Auto Services: Brize Norton 231 Kinloss 43 Valley 72 Leeming 163 St Mawgan 167 Yeovilton 235
Railway stations: Brize Norton 18 Kinloss 4 Valley 5 Leeming 12 St Mawgan 18 Yeovilton 13
Restaurants: Brize Norton 145 Kinloss 13 Valley 13 Leeming 73 St Mawgan 57 Yeovilton 54
Pubs: Brize Norton 227 Kinloss 2 Valley 10 Leeming 96 St Mawgan 93 Yeovilton 133
OK - so what. Well, that's just a snapshot of local services all of which have been independently assessed. Draw whatever conclusions you will.
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You really trust Microsoft Beags?!? Ok 1 by 1,but first why did you not compare with Cottesmore or Waddington.Brize was never in the running for either JSF or MR4,St.Mawgan is just as isolated and was never really in the running anyway,Valley and Leeming I can understand and maybe at a push Yeovilton,but they would never have accepted the noise issue.
Ok
Hospitals,right there 1 in Elgin and 1 in Forres,albeit a small one,I would have included Raigmore in Inverness though as its only 30mins drive and I am sure that even the closest to Brize is more than a 30min drive away!!
Hotels and Motels:Forres,Nairn,Lossie and Elgin are all within 20 miles of Kinloss and Elgin alone as more than 19!!
Petrol and Auto Services:Not really a factor as you don't need to travel that far to get what you need.
Restaraunts:Again I would say that this number is very underestimated for the same reason as I have stated re hotels.
Pubs:You gotta be havin a laff here,you are trying to tell me that you reallythink that there are only 2 pubs within a 20mile radius of Kinloss,cmon,now I know you are talking with no knowledge of the area.
The conclusion I draw is that you or most certainly Microsoft are talking sh**e!
Ok
Hospitals,right there 1 in Elgin and 1 in Forres,albeit a small one,I would have included Raigmore in Inverness though as its only 30mins drive and I am sure that even the closest to Brize is more than a 30min drive away!!
Hotels and Motels:Forres,Nairn,Lossie and Elgin are all within 20 miles of Kinloss and Elgin alone as more than 19!!
Petrol and Auto Services:Not really a factor as you don't need to travel that far to get what you need.
Restaraunts:Again I would say that this number is very underestimated for the same reason as I have stated re hotels.
Pubs:You gotta be havin a laff here,you are trying to tell me that you reallythink that there are only 2 pubs within a 20mile radius of Kinloss,cmon,now I know you are talking with no knowledge of the area.
The conclusion I draw is that you or most certainly Microsoft are talking sh**e!
Thank you for your polite and considered response.
The categories used by Microsoft are unknown to me. But they represent a level playing field for comparative purposes.
My selections were nothing to do with JSF or MRA4 basing, they were intended to show the levels of local services available in the vicinity of typical UK bases.
The categories used by Microsoft are unknown to me. But they represent a level playing field for comparative purposes.
My selections were nothing to do with JSF or MRA4 basing, they were intended to show the levels of local services available in the vicinity of typical UK bases.
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"Thank you for your polite and considered response."
Your most welcome.You have to remember also that local services
serve just that,the local community and thankfully the local community at Kinloss is far smaller than any of the bases you compared them to,Valley is probably the closest comparison.
Personally out of all this,all arguments digested and considered,I really think that the main reason for basing JSF at Lossie is the noise factor,exactly the same reason why Leuchars was preferred to Leeming with Typhoon.
Maybe once they have 'tried it out' on the Scots in the same way that they tried the Poll Tax here first,then if its not as bad as first thought maybe they will consider basing it south of the border.
Your most welcome.You have to remember also that local services
serve just that,the local community and thankfully the local community at Kinloss is far smaller than any of the bases you compared them to,Valley is probably the closest comparison.
Personally out of all this,all arguments digested and considered,I really think that the main reason for basing JSF at Lossie is the noise factor,exactly the same reason why Leuchars was preferred to Leeming with Typhoon.
Maybe once they have 'tried it out' on the Scots in the same way that they tried the Poll Tax here first,then if its not as bad as first thought maybe they will consider basing it south of the border.
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Is the Typhoon really more noisy than the F3 ? I would have thought the Typhoon was quite a bit more eager to get off the ground. As for Joint Strike Whatever - I have a funny feeling
that we already have it thinly disguised as the Typhoon!
that we already have it thinly disguised as the Typhoon!
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Yes Typhoon really is a LOT noisier than the F3,probably the noisiest aircraft I have heard at an airshow in many a year.
From reading other forums and comments made by people who have seen the F35 fly during tests,that again is even noisier in full reheat.
From reading other forums and comments made by people who have seen the F35 fly during tests,that again is even noisier in full reheat.
Did you ever hear the Yak 141 at Farnborough? That was LOUD - particularly when hovering! It also melted the runway on one occasion, allegedly.
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Ranger - In respect to yourself where you around in the days of the Lightning? Is it comparable ? The noise issue in terms of these I feel is a little thin - the Typhoon must have a greater rate of climb to the F.3 and surely that would make it's noise footprint smaller.
Beagle you have obviously not been posted to either Lossie or Kinloss and are talking without that foundation. What you say can therefore be discounted in any reasonable argument.
I have been stationed at Lossie and still fly out of Kinloss and it is one of the best areas of the UK to live. It would have been interesting if you had included in your list the number of :-
1. Murders - there have been 2 in my time here and they are both still being talked about as they are so rare
2. Rapes.
3. Child abuse cases.
4. Assaults.
5. Robberies.
This area is still a law abiding area in which people are interested and look after their neighbours. I used to let my kids (boy and girl) wander to their hearts content, with their mates, in the fields and gorse around our village knowing that they were perfectly safe. Someone would always be keeping an eye on them because they were "village kids" and your neighbours would always be aware of what was going on.
I also find it quite an eyeopener being a member of an ethnic minority (I'm 1/2 English 1/2 Welsh) although being married to a Scot means that I'm only called a white settler in jest (I think).
The reasons that Kinloss and Lossie are being kept open has been well documented and boils down mainly to economics. If you shut the bases they aren't worth anything and you would then have to support the area from the general tax account.
Secondary considerations are that the wx factor here is excellent and the training areas are on the doorstep. Tain range for the FJs and Moray Firth for the Nimrod
The "English" are also becoming very NIMBY and would probably want endless enquiries if a noisy jet was imposed on them.
Let the aircraft be based in the most suitable economic and operational area and accept that that is Scotland and forget how far it is from that awful place called London
HF
I have been stationed at Lossie and still fly out of Kinloss and it is one of the best areas of the UK to live. It would have been interesting if you had included in your list the number of :-
1. Murders - there have been 2 in my time here and they are both still being talked about as they are so rare
2. Rapes.
3. Child abuse cases.
4. Assaults.
5. Robberies.
This area is still a law abiding area in which people are interested and look after their neighbours. I used to let my kids (boy and girl) wander to their hearts content, with their mates, in the fields and gorse around our village knowing that they were perfectly safe. Someone would always be keeping an eye on them because they were "village kids" and your neighbours would always be aware of what was going on.
I also find it quite an eyeopener being a member of an ethnic minority (I'm 1/2 English 1/2 Welsh) although being married to a Scot means that I'm only called a white settler in jest (I think).
The reasons that Kinloss and Lossie are being kept open has been well documented and boils down mainly to economics. If you shut the bases they aren't worth anything and you would then have to support the area from the general tax account.
Secondary considerations are that the wx factor here is excellent and the training areas are on the doorstep. Tain range for the FJs and Moray Firth for the Nimrod
The "English" are also becoming very NIMBY and would probably want endless enquiries if a noisy jet was imposed on them.
Let the aircraft be based in the most suitable economic and operational area and accept that that is Scotland and forget how far it is from that awful place called London
HF
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Riley,I joined up in 1986 so yes I was around when Lightning graced the skies.In all honesty I couldnt say whether or not they compare,sure Lightning was loud, as indeed was the Vulcan,which I remember fondly from airshows.However it is such a long time since I heard Lightning that I can only go on recent experience and that is that Typhoon is very loud indeed.Maybe Brunty could hold a noise competition between the two.
Noise from rate of climb is indeed an issue, but the primary noise factor comes from the power-up and reheat kick-in prior to the aircraft rolling, as with most aircraft.I don't see Typhoon under normal ops carrying out high climb rates after take-off whether it is capable or not. Certainly at CBY at the moment it carries out conventional take-offs and is most certainly louder than the F3 which is only to be expected really considering the performance of its engines.
Noise from rate of climb is indeed an issue, but the primary noise factor comes from the power-up and reheat kick-in prior to the aircraft rolling, as with most aircraft.I don't see Typhoon under normal ops carrying out high climb rates after take-off whether it is capable or not. Certainly at CBY at the moment it carries out conventional take-offs and is most certainly louder than the F3 which is only to be expected really considering the performance of its engines.
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Beags, what does Microshaft have to say about muggings, house breakings, traffic jams, speed cameras, etc? But then again, so many of the figures you gave for Kinloss were wrong... Only 2 pubs within 20 miles of Kinloss, and you believed it enough to type it here 
As for the comment "Wow, the Jocks bite easily here, don't they?", well sorry to disapoint, but I defend RAF Moray (which you are bound to have classed a bite) and I come from the south east of England - so blows that argument out of the water. And why do people assume that all singlies are so desperate to get into London for a night out? Aberdeen is a superb night out and is about the same travelling time from Moray as London is from Marham, I've had many a good night out in Inverness too. Never seen or tasted a deep fried Mars bar, though I do know they exist, but they are probably far nicer than tripe
Professional wives not getting work? Must tell that to all those that work here as teachers/doctors/nurses/vets/etc.
MadMark!!!
As for the comment "Wow, the Jocks bite easily here, don't they?", well sorry to disapoint, but I defend RAF Moray (which you are bound to have classed a bite) and I come from the south east of England - so blows that argument out of the water. And why do people assume that all singlies are so desperate to get into London for a night out? Aberdeen is a superb night out and is about the same travelling time from Moray as London is from Marham, I've had many a good night out in Inverness too. Never seen or tasted a deep fried Mars bar, though I do know they exist, but they are probably far nicer than tripe
Professional wives not getting work? Must tell that to all those that work here as teachers/doctors/nurses/vets/etc.
MadMark!!!