JSF to Lossie, MR4A to Kinloss
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"So. really. Whats so good about england and the xenophobic, arrogant populace that inhabit it?"
cattivo you are a racist git. You give yourself away by the less than subtle use of lower case e in England. Typical, just like the reporters in Scottish newspapers, particurlarly sports writers. Talk about xenophobic and arrogant? Pot, kettle. Oh and by the way, last time I looked the ethnic diversity of Scotland didn't quite match that of England.
Your attitude and that of people like you is why it can be unpleasant for non Scots to be based in Scotland. Lack of jobs for dependents due to race bias and the pathetic belief that Mel Gibson got it right in Braveheart. It's not a bad place to live but it's not good either. The pubs and restaraunts just are not as good as they could be. It's cold. It's further away from the core of UK population than most of RAFG was, and there is not enough recompense for that. If you want to go on holiday out of the country it's a major deal. Don't give me that stuff about cheap flights from Inverness Ranger, it ain't cheap if you have a family. Families and the expense of travel is one thing but the place sucks for singlies. Plain and simple, it sucks. For that reason it might be significant from a 'strategic' aspect. Ask most prospective 20 yr old prospective WSOs whether they would rather be at Kinloss for the foreseeable future or ANYWHERE in England. What about the JSF community? Not only the operators, what about the groundcrew? Are the MRA4/JSF people going to be signing up for a life North of the border? Recruitment and retention (specially among WSO/WSOps) might be healthier if the Nimrods were to be 'somewhere in England'. We might have a happier bunch of folks overall, which might be operationally significant in the long term.
Apart from that, and away from human factors, I have never understood how it makes financial sense to base so many people as far North as Kinloss. The logistics for one. Spares and supplies being constantly trucked such a distance. The cost of moving people backwards and forwards, not only on posting but on courses. Meetings. Anytime someone has to go anywhere mainstream it's expensive. Heating the hangars and work spaces. Surely it is more expensive to run Kinloss per capita than Waddington, for example?
I've been based at Coningsby, Honington, St Mawgan, Laarbruch, Wildenrath, in Australia and the States, twice at Kinloss. There were many good things about Kinloss but none as good as the view in the rear view mirror on posting and none better than anywhere else I've been. You get numb to it after a couple of years being there and it does not seem so bad but you realize what you have been missing when you go somewhere else.
With the RAF reducing in size the way it is, how can it make sense to leave so much of it so far North? It can only be some sort of political sop to the Scots, and that is not fair to our next generation, or to the majority of taxpayers.
The decision has been made and we'll live with it. But the reasons don't really stand up to scrutiny do they?
Here's a tongue in cheek example with respect to not basing JSF at Kinloss due to the birdstrike hazard (Kinloss and Lossie being about 12 miles apart).
UK Birdstrike Data
The CAA's view is that the volume of birdstrikes reported at a particular airport or aerodrome does not imply greater hazard. Due to the limitations of unanalysed raw data, users should exercise extreme caution in forming any conclusion or opinion based on quantitive data alone.
Yeah I know about the migration stuff.
From a man at the right end of his Service,
Good night and good luck.
cattivo you are a racist git. You give yourself away by the less than subtle use of lower case e in England. Typical, just like the reporters in Scottish newspapers, particurlarly sports writers. Talk about xenophobic and arrogant? Pot, kettle. Oh and by the way, last time I looked the ethnic diversity of Scotland didn't quite match that of England.
Your attitude and that of people like you is why it can be unpleasant for non Scots to be based in Scotland. Lack of jobs for dependents due to race bias and the pathetic belief that Mel Gibson got it right in Braveheart. It's not a bad place to live but it's not good either. The pubs and restaraunts just are not as good as they could be. It's cold. It's further away from the core of UK population than most of RAFG was, and there is not enough recompense for that. If you want to go on holiday out of the country it's a major deal. Don't give me that stuff about cheap flights from Inverness Ranger, it ain't cheap if you have a family. Families and the expense of travel is one thing but the place sucks for singlies. Plain and simple, it sucks. For that reason it might be significant from a 'strategic' aspect. Ask most prospective 20 yr old prospective WSOs whether they would rather be at Kinloss for the foreseeable future or ANYWHERE in England. What about the JSF community? Not only the operators, what about the groundcrew? Are the MRA4/JSF people going to be signing up for a life North of the border? Recruitment and retention (specially among WSO/WSOps) might be healthier if the Nimrods were to be 'somewhere in England'. We might have a happier bunch of folks overall, which might be operationally significant in the long term.
Apart from that, and away from human factors, I have never understood how it makes financial sense to base so many people as far North as Kinloss. The logistics for one. Spares and supplies being constantly trucked such a distance. The cost of moving people backwards and forwards, not only on posting but on courses. Meetings. Anytime someone has to go anywhere mainstream it's expensive. Heating the hangars and work spaces. Surely it is more expensive to run Kinloss per capita than Waddington, for example?
I've been based at Coningsby, Honington, St Mawgan, Laarbruch, Wildenrath, in Australia and the States, twice at Kinloss. There were many good things about Kinloss but none as good as the view in the rear view mirror on posting and none better than anywhere else I've been. You get numb to it after a couple of years being there and it does not seem so bad but you realize what you have been missing when you go somewhere else.
With the RAF reducing in size the way it is, how can it make sense to leave so much of it so far North? It can only be some sort of political sop to the Scots, and that is not fair to our next generation, or to the majority of taxpayers.
The decision has been made and we'll live with it. But the reasons don't really stand up to scrutiny do they?
Here's a tongue in cheek example with respect to not basing JSF at Kinloss due to the birdstrike hazard (Kinloss and Lossie being about 12 miles apart).
UK Birdstrike Data
The CAA's view is that the volume of birdstrikes reported at a particular airport or aerodrome does not imply greater hazard. Due to the limitations of unanalysed raw data, users should exercise extreme caution in forming any conclusion or opinion based on quantitive data alone.
Yeah I know about the migration stuff.
From a man at the right end of his Service,
Good night and good luck.
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cattivo you are a racist git. You give yourself away by the less than subtle use of lower case e in England.
There, I've used a lower case 's'. That makes it equal. It takes a special kind of arrogance to get on your high horse about such trivia.
IMHO there is a world of difference between Kinloss and Lossie. Kinloss has an older, more laid back feel. It also feels considerably more isolated than Lossie and I can sympathise with singlies stuck in the blocks. However no more so than singlies stuck in all other bases in the middle of nowhere. (Marham springs instantly to mind)
It does however, make sense to replace a noisy strike aircraft with another noisy strike aircraft when
a. The locals are already used to the noise and have come to depend on the RAF for employment both directly and indirectly. (Whatever your opinion on this, the government has a responsibility to these types of communities wherever they may be)
b. The playground is so open and largely devoid of people to complain about low flying jets. If BB advocates locating the whole airforce down south I bet he still expects to export the noise up north. Once again Scotland would be used as a dumping ground for pollutants.
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Ask most prospective 20 yr old prospective WSOs whether they would rather be at Kinloss for the foreseeable future or ANYWHERE in England. What about the JSF community? Not only the operators, what about the groundcrew? Are the MRA4/JSF people going to be signing up for a life North of the border? Recruitment and retention (specially among WSO/WSOps) might be healthier if the Nimrods were to be 'somewhere in England'. We might have a happier bunch of folks overall, which might be operationally significant in the long term.
As has been said already, the area is very close to some superb training grounds for Nimrod and GR4/JCA, has good flying weather for more days a year than the Vale of York/East Anglia, has airspace that is not the skies equivalent of the M25, has great adventure training facilities from the mountains to the coast, has large 24/7 supermarkets within 10 minutes drive, no traffic jams, very little crime, etc, etc. And despite what many will have you think, the majority of the locals are very friendly if YOU take the time to get to know them and don't refer to them in derogatory ways, like many here seem to do.
I am one of those that wanted posting to 42 Sqn when it was at St. Mawgan, but got Kinloss instead. Did not look forward to coming up north because of what I heard from people talking s#!t, like many on here, but I quickly grew to love the place and am one of those that do not want to go back south. If the place is so bad how come so many English have settled up here over the years, after leaving the RN and RAF
MadMark!!!
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Baffy Boy
Not much substance to your argument I have to say (and did you actually answer my question?).
'xenophobic and arrogant- no you are' Good argument. Have you read the previous posts?
Its cold and its far away from my family - This is the military mate not the f***in boy scouts. If you were based at Kinloss surely you would know about the Moray Firth microclimate. Again, you blatantly ignore the isolation of St. Mawgan/ Valley or the freeze factor of any base on the eastern coast of England (there are you happy now) due to polar continental influence. Heating of hangars!! Are you mental.
Its bad for nightlife - Yeah, another heavyweight strategic argument. Do you think Out of Areas should be stopped too? There not good for recruitment either.
Cost of logistics and re-supply of parts - So its going to be a cheap option to re-locate two infrastructures and 4000 personnel 400 miles south is it? You've just wiped out any negligible amtrak savings.
And lastly, I have no idea what your point about the bird hazard was.
'xenophobic and arrogant- no you are' Good argument. Have you read the previous posts?
Its cold and its far away from my family - This is the military mate not the f***in boy scouts. If you were based at Kinloss surely you would know about the Moray Firth microclimate. Again, you blatantly ignore the isolation of St. Mawgan/ Valley or the freeze factor of any base on the eastern coast of England (there are you happy now) due to polar continental influence. Heating of hangars!! Are you mental.
Its bad for nightlife - Yeah, another heavyweight strategic argument. Do you think Out of Areas should be stopped too? There not good for recruitment either.
Cost of logistics and re-supply of parts - So its going to be a cheap option to re-locate two infrastructures and 4000 personnel 400 miles south is it? You've just wiped out any negligible amtrak savings.
And lastly, I have no idea what your point about the bird hazard was.
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Yes, there are a few singlies that just don't make the most of the area, come up here with the attitude that they will not enjoy themselves and as a result they don't.
Believe it or not some 'singlies' aren't interested in pulling on a pair of red socks and hiking boots and roaming in the gloaming every weekend. Strangely some singlies quite enjoy going home to see their friends, family or perhaps travelling to somewhere civilised to enjoy a weekend of clubbing etc.
'Griz' makes a comparison between Marham and Kinloss, if you can tell me how a singly can get to a major city (London, Birmingham, Manchester etc) from Kinloss in a similar time scale to someone based at Marham I'd love to know. Travelling at legal speeds (which we as representatives of the RAF should surly stick to) it would take 11 hours to drive to London and thats without stopping. Bearing in mind that singlies (and perhaps married persons too) might not be able to get away from work early on poets day (what with the increased workloads we all have) this makes for a very short weekend with a minimum of 22 hours driving involved. Of course there is also the cost on top of that.
Ok, its a fairly severe comparison, not everyone comes from London or wishes to travel there every weekend but what is good for 'us' now may not be what future prospective members of the RAF want. Its bad enough now for new entrants with the limited choices of posting available in this shrinking air force, how much more difficult will it be to tempt (single) folk into a career if that career means the very real prospect of ending up in the middle of nowhere, hundreds of miles from their loved ones? And yes, of course when I joined up I wanted to see the world and this I believe is still part of the reasons many join up but Scotland is not 'the world', its another part of this island.
Another problem with Scotland which concerns me more (as I'm married) is the lack of work for spouses. Not every wife (or husband even) will be happy to work stacking shelves in Forres and thats only if work can be found. Scots move south for work for a reason. I wouldn't be happy for my wife to adopt the lifestyle of so many patch wives of wearing leggings, high heels and sweatshirts and hanging around the Spar shop/HIVE all day. I married a woman who is an intelligent professional who gained a doctorate in order to do something with her life and earn a good wage for herself, not to sit back and live off the wage I bring in.
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Well I was one of those twenty something WSOps who knew the only place they would be posted was either Kinloss or Waddo. And you know what? After being at Cranwell the last place I wanted to stay was Lincs!!!! And after many happy years at Kinloss I don't want to be anywhere else!
I cant wait to get my hands on the new aircraft with all the capability it will bring, and to those detractors of both the MRA4 and Kinloss who went to Waddo - a big up yours!!!!!!
I cant wait to get my hands on the new aircraft with all the capability it will bring, and to those detractors of both the MRA4 and Kinloss who went to Waddo - a big up yours!!!!!!
Whilst I can accept the fact that MRA4 - if it ever makes it into service - should be based at ISK, to base JSF at Lossiemouth seems a very political jobs-for-jocks decision. Particularly after the enormous amount of money spent on RAF Leeming when it was upgraded from a humble Learning Command station to accept the F3. Will the dung-eaters really be allowed to ruin yet another famous RAF station?
St Mawgan doesn't have the world's best weather factor, of course, so nice as the idea of basing the aircraft there would seem, it was always going to be a non-starter. Although a large aerodrome available in the south west does meet other needs, particularly for diversions off the ocean. Perhaps Newquay airport can be upgraded to major airport standard - but it would need vastly improved road access and huge investment.
Yeovilton? How on earth can anyone consider the runway 'too short' for a STOVL aircraft.......
Lincolnshire has always been 'Bomber County'. Thousands of us served at Scampton and Waddington alone in V-force days and, given the opportunity again, would jump at the chance. It was a great lifestyle
St Mawgan doesn't have the world's best weather factor, of course, so nice as the idea of basing the aircraft there would seem, it was always going to be a non-starter. Although a large aerodrome available in the south west does meet other needs, particularly for diversions off the ocean. Perhaps Newquay airport can be upgraded to major airport standard - but it would need vastly improved road access and huge investment.
Yeovilton? How on earth can anyone consider the runway 'too short' for a STOVL aircraft.......
Lincolnshire has always been 'Bomber County'. Thousands of us served at Scampton and Waddington alone in V-force days and, given the opportunity again, would jump at the chance. It was a great lifestyle
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This announcement is probably tied to the 2007 Scottish Parliament elections - I'd personally wait until we see whether the carriers are coming before I got excited about the aircraft type that is supposed to be on it.
If the carriers fall through or are cut back, I cannot see the RAF getting jets of the same type that were intended to be on it.
If the carriers fall through or are cut back, I cannot see the RAF getting jets of the same type that were intended to be on it.
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I've been based at Coningsby, Honington, St Mawgan, Laarbruch, Wildenrath, in Australia and the States, twice at Kinloss. There were many good things about Kinloss but none as good as the view in the rear view mirror on posting and none better than anywhere else I've been. You get numb to it after a couple of years being there and it does not seem so bad but you realize what you have been missing when you go somewhere else.
This thread has been so perverted and biased by the anti-Jockland elements with little or no consideration for the many who love it.
For once our (not so) beloved MoD have got this one right, accept it and stop whinging. We Jocks are the ones who are going to have to put up with the new noisy F-35 keeping it well away from England's green and not so pleasant land.
Conspiracy
a) The relocation and realignment of FAA Harrier units (once the beloved Sea Jet) is gone results in these aircraft doing less carrier based training. And morale will continue to suffer at being under RAF control.
b) An RAF Officer takes over as CDS.
c) Comments are made that because of the transit time from Lossiemouth to the channel/South West approaches the carriers appear less feasible.
d) This is used as another argument to bin CVF, and end the RN's days as a world player.....
Paranoid? Possibly. Suspicious of politicians? Certainly. Not anti Scottish at all, but anti New Labour.
althenick I believe (though might be wrong) that fixed wing carrier aircraft still come under Strike Command.
b) An RAF Officer takes over as CDS.
c) Comments are made that because of the transit time from Lossiemouth to the channel/South West approaches the carriers appear less feasible.
d) This is used as another argument to bin CVF, and end the RN's days as a world player.....
Paranoid? Possibly. Suspicious of politicians? Certainly. Not anti Scottish at all, but anti New Labour.
althenick I believe (though might be wrong) that fixed wing carrier aircraft still come under Strike Command.
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Wow, the Jocks bite easily here, don't they? To quote Chief Brody "We're going to need a bigger boat." You're really not doing much to dispel the stereotype of being miserable gits, chaps.
Speaking of which, and just to throw some AVTUR on the fire
:
The Pride of Scotland
(NB. Not exactly worksafe.)
Awaiting incoming.
Speaking of which, and just to throw some AVTUR on the fire
:The Pride of Scotland
(NB. Not exactly worksafe.)
Awaiting incoming.
Surely the people you serve with are what makes a good draft - in my reasonably long service, I have been to some REAL sh$tholes and still enjoyed it due to the people I have served with.
I'm sure your wife with her doctorate could get a job anywhere, and with a salary, not wages.
I'm sure your wife with her doctorate could get a job anywhere, and with a salary, not wages.
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Surely the people you serve with are what makes a good draft - in my reasonably long service, I have been to some REAL sh$tholes and still enjoyed it due to the people I have served with.
althenick I believe (though might be wrong) that fixed wing carrier aircraft still come under Strike Command.
The local culture....
Medical journal tracks down the deep-fried Mars bar
By SUE LEEMAN | Associated Press
December 17, 2004
LONDON - Like the Loch Ness monster, the deep-fried Mars bar has often been regarded as a Scottish myth.
But a study published Friday in a medical journal confirms that Scots consume thousands of the battered bars each week, and that more than a fifth of fish and chip shops - which specialize in deep-fried food - sell the strange sugary delicacy.
The study was conducted by Dr. David Morrison, a consultant in public health medicine in Glasgow, and Dr. Mark Petticrew, associate director of Glasgow's Medical Research Council Social and Public Health Sciences Unit.
They decided to investigate after the treat was mentioned by television host Jay Leno on America's NBC "Tonight Show."
"We live in Scotland but we'd never actually seen deep-fried Mars bars for sale," said Morrison. "We thought they might be fictitious. But the Scottish diet is a major health issue and it's important to know what the facts are. We can now confirm that there is no doubt - the deep-fried Mars bar is not just an urban myth."
At more than 400 calories per bar, the snack isn't health food. But then, Scotland isn't noted for healthy lifestyles.
Parts of Scotland have the highest incidence of heart disease, cancer and strokes and the lowest life expectancy in the developed world.
Morrison and Petticrew, whose report appears in this week's issue of The Lancet medical journal, called nearly 500 chip shops across Scotland to inquire whether they sold the bars and discovered that 22 percent are proud to offer them, and another 17 percent have done so in the past.
One shop reported selling up to 200 a week.
Children are the main consumers and some shops reported being asked to deep-fry other candy bars, including Snickers and Cadbury's Creme Eggs.
Reports of the deep-fried Mars bar emerged in 1995, when a chip shop in the northeastern Scottish fishing town of Stonehaven said it was selling the delicacy.
News reports said the bar was the result of a bet between the shop's owner and his portly best friend.
The original shop, The Haven, is now the Carron Fish and Chip Bar, run by Calum Richardson.
"They are not my cup of tea but some weeks we sell as many as 300," he said. "I suppose people like them because they are different. At first it was a novelty but not any more."
The Carron charges 70p for a deep-fried Mars bar. Or for £1.70 you can have the supper: deep-fried Mars bar with chips.
Medical journal tracks down the deep-fried Mars bar
By SUE LEEMAN | Associated Press
December 17, 2004
LONDON - Like the Loch Ness monster, the deep-fried Mars bar has often been regarded as a Scottish myth.
But a study published Friday in a medical journal confirms that Scots consume thousands of the battered bars each week, and that more than a fifth of fish and chip shops - which specialize in deep-fried food - sell the strange sugary delicacy.
The study was conducted by Dr. David Morrison, a consultant in public health medicine in Glasgow, and Dr. Mark Petticrew, associate director of Glasgow's Medical Research Council Social and Public Health Sciences Unit.
They decided to investigate after the treat was mentioned by television host Jay Leno on America's NBC "Tonight Show."
"We live in Scotland but we'd never actually seen deep-fried Mars bars for sale," said Morrison. "We thought they might be fictitious. But the Scottish diet is a major health issue and it's important to know what the facts are. We can now confirm that there is no doubt - the deep-fried Mars bar is not just an urban myth."
At more than 400 calories per bar, the snack isn't health food. But then, Scotland isn't noted for healthy lifestyles.
Parts of Scotland have the highest incidence of heart disease, cancer and strokes and the lowest life expectancy in the developed world.
Morrison and Petticrew, whose report appears in this week's issue of The Lancet medical journal, called nearly 500 chip shops across Scotland to inquire whether they sold the bars and discovered that 22 percent are proud to offer them, and another 17 percent have done so in the past.
One shop reported selling up to 200 a week.
Children are the main consumers and some shops reported being asked to deep-fry other candy bars, including Snickers and Cadbury's Creme Eggs.
Reports of the deep-fried Mars bar emerged in 1995, when a chip shop in the northeastern Scottish fishing town of Stonehaven said it was selling the delicacy.
News reports said the bar was the result of a bet between the shop's owner and his portly best friend.
The original shop, The Haven, is now the Carron Fish and Chip Bar, run by Calum Richardson.
"They are not my cup of tea but some weeks we sell as many as 300," he said. "I suppose people like them because they are different. At first it was a novelty but not any more."
The Carron charges 70p for a deep-fried Mars bar. Or for £1.70 you can have the supper: deep-fried Mars bar with chips.
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Whereas: Soggy, greasy fish and chips wi 't mushy peas - haud me back! Jellied eels or shortcrust-encased pig's pizzle and snout (pork pies) mmmmmm (not!).
No wonder so many of you head north to sample our salmon, trout, scallops, mussels, venison, grouse, lamb and prime beef. Forget your deep-fried mars bars, Beags. Why not try here or here for a taste of Scotland.
No wonder so many of you head north to sample our salmon, trout, scallops, mussels, venison, grouse, lamb and prime beef. Forget your deep-fried mars bars, Beags. Why not try here or here for a taste of Scotland.
Well, personally I prefer tail-and-squeal pies to that stuffed sheep's stomach thing you lot make such a song and dance about once a year! Just another excuse for getting whammed on malt - as if you needed one.
Hmm, so maybe not such a bad thing....
Jellied eels and whelks? Hmm, I agree with you there. But have never tried them, thankfully. But fish and chips are fine - but without that vile green sludge known as 'mushy peas'. Which, like pig pancreas pie is something from 'oop Nawth'. Wherever that is....
2 bases in Jockistan is fair enough. But JSF at Lossiemouth simply isn't. It's another Bliarite vote-winning plot!
Hmm, so maybe not such a bad thing....
Jellied eels and whelks? Hmm, I agree with you there. But have never tried them, thankfully. But fish and chips are fine - but without that vile green sludge known as 'mushy peas'. Which, like pig pancreas pie is something from 'oop Nawth'. Wherever that is....
2 bases in Jockistan is fair enough. But JSF at Lossiemouth simply isn't. It's another Bliarite vote-winning plot!
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2 bases in Jockistan is fair enough. But JSF at Lossiemouth simply isn't. It's another Bliarite vote-winning plot!
Well, personally I prefer tail-and-squeal pies to that stuffed sheep's stomach thing you lot make such a song and dance about once a year! Just another excuse for getting whammed on malt - as if you needed one.
A-T
Thanks for the Nick Nairn Link - I quite fancy the Italian Course - Have never Mastered the arriabatta Sauce properly - I feel a Xmas pressy to myself coming on. You ought to know though that Clare MacDonald is from HARROGATE!