Air cadet instructors
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Air cadet instructors
Would be interested in the our regular brethrens opinions on the RAF VR(T) Officers and ATC NCO's (That's adults not cadet NCO's) you have met in your time in the service.
You know - that group who invade your mess for 6 weeks over summer and come round trying to blag all manner of things - for the good of the 'next generation' so to speak.
Just looking for objective opinions of your experiences, with a healthy dose of banter (we can take it)
You know - that group who invade your mess for 6 weeks over summer and come round trying to blag all manner of things - for the good of the 'next generation' so to speak.
Just looking for objective opinions of your experiences, with a healthy dose of banter (we can take it)
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Would suggest its not so much a phishing trip, as *possibly* a way to get some objective input to a number of threads on Air Cadet Central - this one for example:
http://www.aircadetcentral.net/forum...=1986&start=30
While we have a couple of friendly regular RAF bods on ACC, I think its possibly a useful exercise for us VRT or ATC staff to find out exactly what you think of us! Is your opinion of us generally positive? Have some bad eggs spoiled it for us? Do you go out of your way to avoid / help us? Is there anything we could do better / differently?
And heres a question - would any of you guys consider helping us out on a more regular basis, or consider going into ATC / VRT uniform on banging out of the regulars? One thing that has become apparent is the distinct lack of service experience amongst the uniformed staff in recent years.
From previous threads, I think you guys have a very positive opinion of the ATC as a whole - I guess mgdaviso is looking for an opinion on the staff rather than the organisation. Might also be a chance for us staff to clear up a few misunderstandings or myths!
http://www.aircadetcentral.net/forum...=1986&start=30
While we have a couple of friendly regular RAF bods on ACC, I think its possibly a useful exercise for us VRT or ATC staff to find out exactly what you think of us! Is your opinion of us generally positive? Have some bad eggs spoiled it for us? Do you go out of your way to avoid / help us? Is there anything we could do better / differently?
And heres a question - would any of you guys consider helping us out on a more regular basis, or consider going into ATC / VRT uniform on banging out of the regulars? One thing that has become apparent is the distinct lack of service experience amongst the uniformed staff in recent years.
From previous threads, I think you guys have a very positive opinion of the ATC as a whole - I guess mgdaviso is looking for an opinion on the staff rather than the organisation. Might also be a chance for us staff to clear up a few misunderstandings or myths!
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ATC Occifers etc
May not come as a shock to many but I was a "Spacey" many moons ago (306 (Runcorn) Sqn). I like the idea of the cadets, I enjoyed it, it got me interested in the RAF when there wasn't much in the way of career satisfaction for what would be called a "Chav" nowadays. However when I was in the cadets the majority of the AI's were ex RAF or Army and had a good background for what they were doing. Nowadays I speak to many ATC/VR WO's and Adult Sgts who seem to have no regular service whatsoever or if they do it is minimal. For example an ATC Flt Lt (VR) who managed 6 years as an airman in the catering trade, banged out, became a civil servant and is now OC of a local ATC Sqn. Said chap tried to wear his mess kit to a Sqn all ranks dining in night and got vexed when it was pointed out he was attending as a civilian member of the Sqn not a VR officer. I sometimes think that these people couldn't cut it in the regulars so get their kicks from ordering around kids. (Dives into slit trench)
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I was a service instructor with the ATC for around seven years, and yes it is true that there are plenty of 'wannabees', and a quantity of poor-quality individuals who should never be allowed to supervise young adults.
However, there is also a very large percentage of highly motivated (they have to be, they are volunteers) hgh-quality people, who may be successful in civvie street already and give up much of their own time to teach, take kids flying/gliding, AT expeds, and provide a taste what service ethos and life.
I think we tend to see extremes at times - particularly Easter/Summer camp activity. On the whole, they're a good bunch though.
SBG
P.S. I once saw an RAFVR(T) Flt Lt in a grow bag in LOO Officers' Mess, wearing a flying suit with a very odd brevet...wandered over for a chat and a closer look only to find out that the wings were "Model Aircraft Pilot".......
However, there is also a very large percentage of highly motivated (they have to be, they are volunteers) hgh-quality people, who may be successful in civvie street already and give up much of their own time to teach, take kids flying/gliding, AT expeds, and provide a taste what service ethos and life.
I think we tend to see extremes at times - particularly Easter/Summer camp activity. On the whole, they're a good bunch though.
SBG
P.S. I once saw an RAFVR(T) Flt Lt in a grow bag in LOO Officers' Mess, wearing a flying suit with a very odd brevet...wandered over for a chat and a closer look only to find out that the wings were "Model Aircraft Pilot".......
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Stax - you get all sorts.....
Just to 're-educate' you slightly.
We're not "VR", we're VR(T)
We're not ATC Officers, we are RAF VR(T) Officers, ain't no such thing as an ATC Officer.
From www.rafweb.org
We now (as of Sept 03) have adult NCO's (Sgt, FS and WO) these guys n gals have "ATC" on their shoulder tapes, which distinguish them as ATC personnel.
Sounds like they guy was a bit of a t1t, please don't tar us all with the same brush. On their behalf I don't apologise.
As for me? Unfit for service medically, had been a spacey, and decided to pursue civvi career, stayed with the ATC and eventually signed on the dotted line as a VR(T) Officer. Didn't fancy TA and hadn't heard of RAuxF back then (otherwise I may have requested to join them).
I take great pleasure in providing a support structure and training for 60+ local kids, who (mostly) want to pursue a career in the armed forces or do something positive with their teenage years.
I have a WO to order them around!
oh dear god - once more I apologise....
Just to 're-educate' you slightly.
We're not "VR", we're VR(T)
We're not ATC Officers, we are RAF VR(T) Officers, ain't no such thing as an ATC Officer.
From www.rafweb.org
When the Air Defence Cadet Corps was taken over by the Air Ministry and renamed the Air Training Corps in 1941, a new class of the RAFVR was formed to man run this organisation, the RAF Volunteer Reserve (Training Branch).
Sounds like they guy was a bit of a t1t, please don't tar us all with the same brush. On their behalf I don't apologise.
As for me? Unfit for service medically, had been a spacey, and decided to pursue civvi career, stayed with the ATC and eventually signed on the dotted line as a VR(T) Officer. Didn't fancy TA and hadn't heard of RAuxF back then (otherwise I may have requested to join them).
I take great pleasure in providing a support structure and training for 60+ local kids, who (mostly) want to pursue a career in the armed forces or do something positive with their teenage years.
I have a WO to order them around!
P.S. I once saw an RAFVR(T) Flt Lt in a grow bag in LOO Officers\' Mess, wearing a flying suit with a very odd brevet...wandered over for a chat and a closer look only to find out that the wings were "Model Aircraft Pilot".......
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Stax - would be interested to know how long ago it was that you were a cadet?
You are right, there are a number of people who are in our organisation for the percieved status. I'm in it because I enjoy watching others experience something they would never have done otherwise, and learn and grow from it. What would they have done otherwise? I take pride in my association with the RAF, but I'm not going to milk it! I think the majority of uniformed staff are in it for the right reasons, but as in all walks of life, there are others who really shouldn't leave the house!
My background was as cadet for 3 years at a small DF in Scotland. Over-riding career ambition was to be a weatherman (dont ask) or go into the RAF. The Met. Office got there first but was lucky to end up on an F3 base for 3 years (with various detachments, incl MPA). On being posted to Bracknell, I joined the local squadron as a CI, then went into uniform. I ran a neighbouring squadron for a couple of years, and am currently a squadron officer.
You are right, there are a number of people who are in our organisation for the percieved status. I'm in it because I enjoy watching others experience something they would never have done otherwise, and learn and grow from it. What would they have done otherwise? I take pride in my association with the RAF, but I'm not going to milk it! I think the majority of uniformed staff are in it for the right reasons, but as in all walks of life, there are others who really shouldn't leave the house!
My background was as cadet for 3 years at a small DF in Scotland. Over-riding career ambition was to be a weatherman (dont ask) or go into the RAF. The Met. Office got there first but was lucky to end up on an F3 base for 3 years (with various detachments, incl MPA). On being posted to Bracknell, I joined the local squadron as a CI, then went into uniform. I ran a neighbouring squadron for a couple of years, and am currently a squadron officer.
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ain't no such thing as an ATC Officer.
...Oh, well - guess this means they *were* a figment of my imagination
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As you say, though - you get all types. Most of my RAFVR(T) and ATC compatriots in the time I was an SI were pretty high-quality individuals, and would not have been out of the place in the regular commissioned or SNCO cadres.
However, to cite another example of something I saw that I didn't like - there was a tendancy in some quarters to forget that the ATC is a supporting organisation to the RAF and the accompanying attitude of "why doesn't RAF (insert name here) do more for us?".
The difference was made in that particular Wing by getting more of the key ATC staff to local RAF units and to show them the what the ops tempo was doing to us - they then understood the challenges faced by the ACLOs....
We also used to put together an annual leadership camp for 200 cadets and 50 staff - out in the field, wearing green kit (for those that could get it) - navigating, pine pole exercises, river crossings etc plus shooting, confidence course and so on.
The great thing for me (as the Training Officer) was seeing the staff get stuck in on the exercises, learn and improve just as much as the cadets over the course of the week. There could be something in this team building stuff, you know!
Cheers
SBG
However, to cite another example of something I saw that I didn't like - there was a tendancy in some quarters to forget that the ATC is a supporting organisation to the RAF and the accompanying attitude of "why doesn't RAF (insert name here) do more for us?".
The difference was made in that particular Wing by getting more of the key ATC staff to local RAF units and to show them the what the ops tempo was doing to us - they then understood the challenges faced by the ACLOs....
We also used to put together an annual leadership camp for 200 cadets and 50 staff - out in the field, wearing green kit (for those that could get it) - navigating, pine pole exercises, river crossings etc plus shooting, confidence course and so on.
The great thing for me (as the Training Officer) was seeing the staff get stuck in on the exercises, learn and improve just as much as the cadets over the course of the week. There could be something in this team building stuff, you know!
Cheers
SBG
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I was a Spacey for 6 years and enjoyed just about every minute of it (right up to the point that I was asked to leave, but that's another story). My Sqn (424 Southampton) was blessed with an excellent bunch of VR(T) officers and CI's who went out of their way to get the cadets doing as wide a variety of things as possible.
However, since joining the RAF I have helped out at a local Sqn and acted as liason on Summer Camps. In these duties I have seen some "officers" who really concern me and are a shocking representation of the RAF. These people send entirely the wrong message about the RAF to the very people that we might eventually recruit. Some of it is not their fault. The training given to VR(T) officers at Cranditz is, in my opinion, too brief to really produce the ideal. It is therefore down to the individual. As in all walks of life there are some bad eggs but it is down to the good ones and the full time RAF officers to help educate them.
SPG,
I hope that you had a word with said Flt Lt and pointed out the error of his ways. RAFVR(T) officers are very often the only contact Joe Public has with the Military and we should do our best to make sure that a good impression is being given.
However, since joining the RAF I have helped out at a local Sqn and acted as liason on Summer Camps. In these duties I have seen some "officers" who really concern me and are a shocking representation of the RAF. These people send entirely the wrong message about the RAF to the very people that we might eventually recruit. Some of it is not their fault. The training given to VR(T) officers at Cranditz is, in my opinion, too brief to really produce the ideal. It is therefore down to the individual. As in all walks of life there are some bad eggs but it is down to the good ones and the full time RAF officers to help educate them.
SPG,
I hope that you had a word with said Flt Lt and pointed out the error of his ways. RAFVR(T) officers are very often the only contact Joe Public has with the Military and we should do our best to make sure that a good impression is being given.
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there was a tendancy in some quarters to forget that the ATC is a supporting organisation to the RAF and the accompanying attitude of "why doesn't RAF (insert name here) do more for us?".
However, the Air Cadets are seen as a worthwhile investment in much the same way that university bursaries are seen as a worthwhile investment in that both systems help to provide worthy candidates for the royal Airforce, even if that is not their primary goal.
To demand that the RAF give more support, though, is arrogant. Granted, it would be nice but everybody has resource limitations and that needs to be taken into consideration. Besides, the RAF could be far more obstructive if they chose to be, so it is best not to rock the boat
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Yes, I did - in a polite fashion as I was at the time a Fg Off Nav Stude and he was, after all a Flt Lt and much older than I - but he felt it was his right to wear what he liked. Obviously not the case, but I tried.
I had to smile a short time later when he was unceremoniously dispatched from the bar by the CI......
Definitely the exception, rather than the rule though.
Incubus - I am aware that the RAF supports the ATC in the way you point out but the fact is that the cadet organisations would not exist without the parent Service. By 'supporting' I mean primarily recruitment, which has always been a sensitive subject. However, I believe that the situation was formalised a couple of years back and the ATC is now officially a source of recruits for the RAF.
Cheers
SBG
I had to smile a short time later when he was unceremoniously dispatched from the bar by the CI......
Definitely the exception, rather than the rule though.
Incubus - I am aware that the RAF supports the ATC in the way you point out but the fact is that the cadet organisations would not exist without the parent Service. By 'supporting' I mean primarily recruitment, which has always been a sensitive subject. However, I believe that the situation was formalised a couple of years back and the ATC is now officially a source of recruits for the RAF.
Cheers
SBG
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Hmm..
Back in day when I was an Air Cadet the adult staff on my squadron didn’t paint a particularly good impression of ATC staff or officers.
The OC and other officers seemed to have some huge politics thing going and there was a large amount of favouritism for certain cadets. There were inappropriate relationships going on between a few cadets and adult staff.
My WO was a complete idiot. He was a wannabe RAF Warrant Officer who couldn’t hack it so he instead ordered round lots of kids, intimidating them almost to the point of bullying in some cases.
He was a postman and there was a running joke with the older cadets that he couldn’t get into the Royal Air Force so he joined the Royal Mail.
Once he took a friend and I into his office and tried to threaten us and make admit to something which happened on a night out and was completely unconnected with the ATC.
My Dad always said to me that to be an ATC officer (or VR(T) or whatever the technical name is) you had to be really fat!
During IOT I got the impression that there was a lot of bad feeling towards the ATC officers as they “do a one week course in marching and rank insignias and get the same commission as us”
Anyway, just a few thoughts for you. There are a lot of cool ATC officers out there who do a lot of good and really help young people but, in my opinion, there are also a lot who are simply power hungry and want to boss kids around and boast that they are ‘”in the Air Force”.
Back in day when I was an Air Cadet the adult staff on my squadron didn’t paint a particularly good impression of ATC staff or officers.
The OC and other officers seemed to have some huge politics thing going and there was a large amount of favouritism for certain cadets. There were inappropriate relationships going on between a few cadets and adult staff.
My WO was a complete idiot. He was a wannabe RAF Warrant Officer who couldn’t hack it so he instead ordered round lots of kids, intimidating them almost to the point of bullying in some cases.
He was a postman and there was a running joke with the older cadets that he couldn’t get into the Royal Air Force so he joined the Royal Mail.
Once he took a friend and I into his office and tried to threaten us and make admit to something which happened on a night out and was completely unconnected with the ATC.
My Dad always said to me that to be an ATC officer (or VR(T) or whatever the technical name is) you had to be really fat!
During IOT I got the impression that there was a lot of bad feeling towards the ATC officers as they “do a one week course in marching and rank insignias and get the same commission as us”
Anyway, just a few thoughts for you. There are a lot of cool ATC officers out there who do a lot of good and really help young people but, in my opinion, there are also a lot who are simply power hungry and want to boss kids around and boast that they are ‘”in the Air Force”.
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Spare a thought for VR(T) officers in the Combined Cadet Force (if you haven't come across us, we're the school-based units, usually independent schools). The officers are almost all teachers; very few have any regular experience; a significant minority are press-ganged into serving and have no real interest in it; and a few units (including mine) have compulsory service for cadets. Despite the fact that our cadets come from nice well-off backgrounds and are generally polite enough, it's an uphill struggle if they don't want to be there, and sometimes this comes across in sqn visits &c.
On the plus side, we are well resourced, generally, have plenty of space and facilities, and as the officers are trained teachers, they are good at teaching things to cadets - a skill almost entirely overlooked in the 1-week ATC IOT courses. And, depending on your type of school, most of the teachers fit in well in the mess - indeed our own Common Room works in a very similar way.
Tim
On the plus side, we are well resourced, generally, have plenty of space and facilities, and as the officers are trained teachers, they are good at teaching things to cadets - a skill almost entirely overlooked in the 1-week ATC IOT courses. And, depending on your type of school, most of the teachers fit in well in the mess - indeed our own Common Room works in a very similar way.
Tim
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I take my retired hat off to all RAF VR(T) officers for the work they do encouraging and supervising young people, some of whom might want to join the RAF. Nobody in this World is perfect and it is too easy to pick at some of them but, in general, they do a very worthwhile job and are of great benefit to our community.
I spent some of my serving time assisting them on an ATC Squadron and I know how dedicated most of them are. I also spent some time teaching ATC cadets to glide during week-ends whilst I was a staff officer and I flew lots of cadets on summer camp air experience. I could in those days have recruited more well-motivated pilots into the RAF than PMC ever did and they would have stayed. We used to solo more pilots than RAF Flying Training every year.
Serving personnel should support and encourage the RAF VR(T) officers - they do a great job.
I spent some of my serving time assisting them on an ATC Squadron and I know how dedicated most of them are. I also spent some time teaching ATC cadets to glide during week-ends whilst I was a staff officer and I flew lots of cadets on summer camp air experience. I could in those days have recruited more well-motivated pilots into the RAF than PMC ever did and they would have stayed. We used to solo more pilots than RAF Flying Training every year.
Serving personnel should support and encourage the RAF VR(T) officers - they do a great job.
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There has been a lot of honest comments here all of which I can relate to having had several years experience working with the ATC from a service perspective.
There are many, many VRT staff who work for the Cadets with untold dedication. There are sadly some who are an absolute disgrace to the uniform that they are privileged to wear. Happily the later are very much the minority, although they are also the ones that are noticed by the public and servicemen alike.
I have witnessed on several occasions servicemen, and often cpls and sacs, having a quiet word. In sympathy with the numbers in para 2, most VRT listen and learn, the odd arrogant ba"%%^d throws a teddy and complains.
The important side to this debate regardless of where your loyalties lie, is that the Cadets are not (usually) the ones seen can kicking on street corners and mugging mobile phones off teenagers and old ladies. They are usually highly motivated, and less there be any doubt about that, have a go at the staff cadet exam which ammounts to defence studies worthy of an IOT or Staff Course. If a bit of time and effort keeps these kids off the streets for a few hours a week, creates teamwork and responsibility (Duke of Edinburghs award) then we should all support them.
As ACLO at a purple learning centre, I enjoy unreserved (and costly £££$$$) support from all members of my station. We host the Cadets on 12 annual camps and day visits for the remainder of the year. I was pleasantly surprised when after having a "knob in power" on the unit that caused some localised ill feeling, the station rose above that and have enabled the cadets to have a sucessfull and enjoyable time at what for many is their first summer camp.
I felt quite privileged as operating crew on an aircraft that had on board a Cadet who at 14 years of age had never flown before. Not least of which was because as a 14 year old on board a Whirlwind helicopter at RAF Valley a long time ago, that said Cadet was me!! 28 years of service later.........
I rest my case:
There are many, many VRT staff who work for the Cadets with untold dedication. There are sadly some who are an absolute disgrace to the uniform that they are privileged to wear. Happily the later are very much the minority, although they are also the ones that are noticed by the public and servicemen alike.
I have witnessed on several occasions servicemen, and often cpls and sacs, having a quiet word. In sympathy with the numbers in para 2, most VRT listen and learn, the odd arrogant ba"%%^d throws a teddy and complains.
The important side to this debate regardless of where your loyalties lie, is that the Cadets are not (usually) the ones seen can kicking on street corners and mugging mobile phones off teenagers and old ladies. They are usually highly motivated, and less there be any doubt about that, have a go at the staff cadet exam which ammounts to defence studies worthy of an IOT or Staff Course. If a bit of time and effort keeps these kids off the streets for a few hours a week, creates teamwork and responsibility (Duke of Edinburghs award) then we should all support them.
As ACLO at a purple learning centre, I enjoy unreserved (and costly £££$$$) support from all members of my station. We host the Cadets on 12 annual camps and day visits for the remainder of the year. I was pleasantly surprised when after having a "knob in power" on the unit that caused some localised ill feeling, the station rose above that and have enabled the cadets to have a sucessfull and enjoyable time at what for many is their first summer camp.
I felt quite privileged as operating crew on an aircraft that had on board a Cadet who at 14 years of age had never flown before. Not least of which was because as a 14 year old on board a Whirlwind helicopter at RAF Valley a long time ago, that said Cadet was me!! 28 years of service later.........
I rest my case:
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ATC Stuff
First off, apologies to the dedicated, sensible RAF (VR)/ATC Officers and WO/SNCO's. I am a fan of the ATC, we do still get some excellent ex spacey's joining up. However I have genuinely met members of the ATC SNCO cadre in the mess during easter/summer camp periods and many of them are so obviously failed wanabee's with delusions of granduer that it makes you wonder what the kids in their Sqn are being taught about the RAF. However if you think we are being nasty check out the comments on ACF AI's on the ARRSE website, ATC guys, you get off lightly here!
Metman
1974 to 1977, there are still two of us in the RAF that jioned straight from ATC.
Metman
1974 to 1977, there are still two of us in the RAF that jioned straight from ATC.
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Unfortunatly I'm not a VR(T), but I am a CI and I thoroughly enjoy it. Some people have said that the VR(T)s sometimes create a bad impression;
but it's not always the case. I can say that when I first joined as an instructor I was expecting a younger generation of kids interested in the RAF, flying, shooting, adventure training, etc. That simply wasn't so either! I'm a CI because I want to encourage younger people to take an interest in an active lifestyle and look at possibly joining the forces. We may get a lot of banter off of regular guys, but we're not all bad. 
My Dad always said to me that to be an ATC officer (or VR(T) or whatever the technical name is) you had to be really fat!