Nottingham Lynx Ditching
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Back to the Lynx ditching. Has anyone got any update on who was the 3rd bod in the back?
Staff/Trapper/Flt Cdr/Passenger on a jolly/Mid/YO/??????? Not interested in an 'intelligent guess' - we can all do that - just fact or rumour please.
Staff/Trapper/Flt Cdr/Passenger on a jolly/Mid/YO/??????? Not interested in an 'intelligent guess' - we can all do that - just fact or rumour please.
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believe it was the flight winchman. Its normal procedure for Lynx flights to take the flight winchman with them as he also acts as the gunner (unpaid, unwilling and little training).
As for the ADAWS problem. It is well documented that T42's have massive nav errors and it is not unusual for outhouse to bugger off on a course of its own never to be seen again. Happened to me many times and eventually I made local policy to remain within 50 miles of the ship. It also meant that the whole thing had to be updated every 20 minutes whiich is inefficiency gone bonkers...
No one seems to be placing any emphasis on the bag passing them duff info....was the bag to blame?
Maybe the BOI can make sense of this but at the end of the day if the outcome of this is a decent nav kit for the T42 then some good will have come of this.....although I doubt the funds will be found.
Good point made by Orca.... I dismay at the amount of times I have recovered (just) and attempted to bollock the Navs/OOW only to be greeted by a blank look.....
As for the ADAWS problem. It is well documented that T42's have massive nav errors and it is not unusual for outhouse to bugger off on a course of its own never to be seen again. Happened to me many times and eventually I made local policy to remain within 50 miles of the ship. It also meant that the whole thing had to be updated every 20 minutes whiich is inefficiency gone bonkers...
No one seems to be placing any emphasis on the bag passing them duff info....was the bag to blame?
Maybe the BOI can make sense of this but at the end of the day if the outcome of this is a decent nav kit for the T42 then some good will have come of this.....although I doubt the funds will be found.
When i pointed out to 'those that should have known better' how a little bit of finger faff had almost got me soggy and lost an aircraft i was met with the quote "What do you want? An apology?" Oh, and i got a bolly for breaking radio silence.
Last edited by totalwar; 9th Mar 2005 at 22:23.
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Totalwar, do you KNOW it was the Flt winchman or is that a guess?
It seems a little bit unlikely that the winchman/crewman/cabin gunner (does the M3 really fill this warfare role today?) would be carried on a long-range (encounterex?) sortie. Isn't his weight of fuel more important in the Mk8?
Nav accuracy in the T42 is a red herring. The ship has a perfectly decent and accurate GPS system. The fault, if any, may be in the procedures to ensure the nav plot and tactical plots remain locked together. That is a training/competence issue.
It seems a little bit unlikely that the winchman/crewman/cabin gunner (does the M3 really fill this warfare role today?) would be carried on a long-range (encounterex?) sortie. Isn't his weight of fuel more important in the Mk8?
Nav accuracy in the T42 is a red herring. The ship has a perfectly decent and accurate GPS system. The fault, if any, may be in the procedures to ensure the nav plot and tactical plots remain locked together. That is a training/competence issue.
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ADAWS and the type 42 have had this problem for years and it won't be resolved until (hopefully will be resolved with) the introduction of the T45. The GPS is not locked into the tactical plot, for some bizarre reason. Working before with a T42 we gave positioning in Lat/Long that was crossed into grid for the plot before being converted back to Lat/Long for the targeting computer, with ERRORS. There is training/competence issues here with cross referencing plots but when there are lives at risk and the problem is known how can this be a red herring. Nobody knows if the bag held the ship on radar or was relying upon position reports passed from the ship. T42's do not physically jump miles! Shame really, t'would be a huge saving in fuel bills!
What the Bag was doing? Thats a BOI thing I'm afraid, none of us have enough info to speculate on services provided and I'm sure we all agree that the aircraft captain would have kept a close eye on the plot as well.
The Lynx MK 8 can carry three people and full fuel even in the Gulf. This idea that it has the legs of a wasp is c&*p. The only issue that could cause a problem is single engine recovery to the deck, but hey that affects all helos in the area.
What the Bag was doing? Thats a BOI thing I'm afraid, none of us have enough info to speculate on services provided and I'm sure we all agree that the aircraft captain would have kept a close eye on the plot as well.
The Lynx MK 8 can carry three people and full fuel even in the Gulf. This idea that it has the legs of a wasp is c&*p. The only issue that could cause a problem is single engine recovery to the deck, but hey that affects all helos in the area.
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The Lynx MK 8 can carry three people and full fuel even in the Gulf. This idea that it has the legs of a wasp is c&*p. The only issue that could cause a problem is single engine recovery to the deck, but hey that affects all helos in the area.
It is normal procedure to fly with the winchman. Routine, normal, happens everyday....
I concur with Fagin's Goat. Don't blame the kit for operator error (if that is what it was). Nav errors of a few hundred's of yards do not cause this sort of incident. Reminds me of a similar incident several years ago when a Lynx landed in Sicily (i think) ran out of fuel and had to call for a fuel tanker. He got really slated at the time, but IMHO he should have been given a pat on the back for having the Cohones to not press-on. Red faces, but got the aircraft back safely.
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Nobodys 'blaming' anyone, be it ship's crew, aircrew or equipment. All this is the rumour (!) mill with a bit of a discussion into a well known problem with certain ships ops software/routines and also the old age problem with outhouse procedures and emcon. This particular series of events will be old news to anyone who has flown the Lynx and I personally am amazed that there are these events surrounding yet another accident/incident. It's not exactly breaking news that the plot slippage leads to prob's getting the Lynx back on the deck. These events are often a catalyst to spark off discussion into old problems that never seem to go away.
The BOI will, hopefully, be able to corellate the facts and produce a professional finding based upon hard facts. If anyone has a problem with that then stop reading the Professional Pilots RUMOUR network.
Thankfully no-one was hurt in this accident, except perhaps a bit of professional pride, which allows this supposition to take place :-)
As to the witch hunt, who knows?
The BOI will, hopefully, be able to corellate the facts and produce a professional finding based upon hard facts. If anyone has a problem with that then stop reading the Professional Pilots RUMOUR network.
Thankfully no-one was hurt in this accident, except perhaps a bit of professional pride, which allows this supposition to take place :-)
As to the witch hunt, who knows?
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Trouble is I can't help but agree with Paul McK....
I totally agree with the old "outhouse" chestnut. Iv'e never quite understood why we create an imaginary waypoint in the position of the ship at the start of the sortie when what we actually need to know is the position of the ship at the end of the sortie...bizarre....
I totally agree with the old "outhouse" chestnut. Iv'e never quite understood why we create an imaginary waypoint in the position of the ship at the start of the sortie when what we actually need to know is the position of the ship at the end of the sortie...bizarre....
Last edited by totalwar; 10th Mar 2005 at 16:55.
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Had a beer with the lads involved last night in Dubai. Very interesting to hear their story. Equally interesting to read some of the comments here. Not something I am sure any of us would like to experience. Like always, don't speculate and wait for the facts before judging.........
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Exactly....whats the point of this site if we can't speculate....thats what its here for....
However, you should take care over your comments as it could incriminate people or upset families of those involved. Thankfully in this case there were no injuries except to the pride of the bagman who sent a perfectly innocent lynx guy down the wrong path.
However, you should take care over your comments as it could incriminate people or upset families of those involved. Thankfully in this case there were no injuries except to the pride of the bagman who sent a perfectly innocent lynx guy down the wrong path.
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you should take care over your comments as it could incriminate people or upset families of those involved. Thankfully in this case there were no injuries except to the pride of the bagman who sent a perfectly innocent lynx guy down the wrong path.
without backing up your statement - do you really know what happened?Whenever I fly from the ship I bloody well know where mother is all the time, whether as a contact on radar or a no duff position from outhouse. I am not relying on anyone else - a second set of info to back up what I already know is nice for that warm and fuzzy but I don't rely on it. As aircraft captain I am responsible for getting back to the ship and no-one else. And yes, I have done emcon recoveries with no comms or radar at night from a long way out which wouldnt have worked without basic navigation skills, some semblance of SA and a ship doing what it said it would.
I'm sorry, harsh as it sounds, if you run out of go juice you have to seriously ask what was going on in the cab at the time, whatever the contributory factors. IMHO in peacetime there is no excuse for losing an aircraft due to running out of fuel.
Why dont we just wait for the BOI to release its findings. Then we can try to learn from any mistakes that were made to prevent any reoccurrence.
Oggin
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total...
"However, you should take care over your comments as it could incriminate people or upset families of those involved. Thankfully in this case there were no injuries except to the pride of the bagman who sent a perfectly innocent lynx guy down the wrong path."
so who is being incriminating now towards the bagmen....do you know for certain that it was the bags fault and that the lynx guy was perfectly innocent?
edited because oggin got in there first!!! Great minds eh!!
"However, you should take care over your comments as it could incriminate people or upset families of those involved. Thankfully in this case there were no injuries except to the pride of the bagman who sent a perfectly innocent lynx guy down the wrong path."
so who is being incriminating now towards the bagmen....do you know for certain that it was the bags fault and that the lynx guy was perfectly innocent?
edited because oggin got in there first!!! Great minds eh!!
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Totally concur with oggin....He has hit the nail on the head...however there are a couple of flaws in his ramblings...First one is
As previously stated this was a T42 and therefore the ship thought it was with outhouse but actually was some distance away.
I had a chat with the guys who are safely back at Yeovilton (thankfully)... they seem confident in the fact that they did everything as they had been taught to do.
a ship doing what it said it would
I had a chat with the guys who are safely back at Yeovilton (thankfully)... they seem confident in the fact that they did everything as they had been taught to do.
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I've seen the gucci nav kit on the bridge of the CVS - has this been fitted to the T42?
I cant believe in this day and age, even reading the posts on this thread, that a ship can lose itself such that it gives incorrect brg/ranges to aircraft fom ref points. Its not really rocket science is it?
I cant believe in this day and age, even reading the posts on this thread, that a ship can lose itself such that it gives incorrect brg/ranges to aircraft fom ref points. Its not really rocket science is it?