Nottingham Lynx Ditching
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the old "plot slippage" problem 42's used to suffer has been sorted
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I wonder if anything changed between briefing and sortie execution? Does getting a service from a bag lull even the most professional aviator into a false sense of security? Already read lots about keeping a few kilos for the wife and kids.
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Totalwar,
Oh and for Bigtop....the aircraft DID NOT run out of fuel.
Mere semantics - if you don't have enough gas to get where you're going then of course you may elect to take the early decision to ditch rather than flame out. But at the end of the day they WOULD HAVE RUN OUT if endurance does not match Speed/time/distance etc.
I speak from experience - though fortunately in my case the mis-idented 'mother' was another warship and although not capable of taking us on the back end did provide a HIFR until we sorted the plot out!
Let's hope rather than a witch hunt that the lessons will be learnt and improvements made to the inadequate kit that has been alluded to in this thread to ensure it won't happen again.
Oh and for Bigtop....the aircraft DID NOT run out of fuel.
Mere semantics - if you don't have enough gas to get where you're going then of course you may elect to take the early decision to ditch rather than flame out. But at the end of the day they WOULD HAVE RUN OUT if endurance does not match Speed/time/distance etc.
I speak from experience - though fortunately in my case the mis-idented 'mother' was another warship and although not capable of taking us on the back end did provide a HIFR until we sorted the plot out!
Let's hope rather than a witch hunt that the lessons will be learnt and improvements made to the inadequate kit that has been alluded to in this thread to ensure it won't happen again.
Just a numbered other
totalwar,
Which company does he work for?
Most simply fire you, pretty well on the spot.
Razordome, was your old boss's ditching in OS 1985?
If it was, I nearly joined him in the oggin on the same exercise. HDS flight on RFA Fort Austin. Wessex five with no navaids except DR plotting by the crewman. RFA not fitted with any kind of data link, so invisible to rest of group, and not sticking to the brief.
If the refuellers on Invincible had seen my 'throat cut' action, and not put a few hundred too many pounds on, I'd have been swimming too.
Best laugh, when we'd eventually found her, with a reported endurance of minus 2 minutes, she asked for a radar approach for training.
A friend of mine works for the airlines (ex RN) and he mentioned the difference between the airlines and the military is that in the Airlines when there is an incident the company are happy to find out WHAT happened and leave it at that.
Most simply fire you, pretty well on the spot.
Razordome, was your old boss's ditching in OS 1985?
If it was, I nearly joined him in the oggin on the same exercise. HDS flight on RFA Fort Austin. Wessex five with no navaids except DR plotting by the crewman. RFA not fitted with any kind of data link, so invisible to rest of group, and not sticking to the brief.
If the refuellers on Invincible had seen my 'throat cut' action, and not put a few hundred too many pounds on, I'd have been swimming too.
Best laugh, when we'd eventually found her, with a reported endurance of minus 2 minutes, she asked for a radar approach for training.
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Does getting a service from a bag lull even the most professional aviator into a false sense of security?
and despite how often you word it or twist the sentance...the aircraft didn't run out of fuel and the charges won't say that it did.
Ark ---- Thomas Cook.
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Totally agree with Ark. Airlines do not shrug these sort of things off. In a similar situation you would be fired instantly (BALPA pleading your case or not!). As an aside, in commercial operations fuel is always tight cos it is 'bad' to carry around non-profit making loads and every pound saved could go towards another fare-paying bum on a seat, etc, etc. It is routine to land with what approximates to MLA - yes I know that is to a fixed airfield but there are often 'events' that can errode the fuel remaining!
Perhaps it would be refreshing to see some heads roll on this one? Perhaps it would drive home the reallity of ditching a multi-million pound aircraft at a time when defence can't afford a new box of paperclips? Perhaps it keeps happening because there is an unspoken 'you can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs' mentality - the proper conduct of embarked aviation gets lost in the noise and excitement of the exercise. Flying is never 'for exercise'!!
Perhaps it would be refreshing to see some heads roll on this one? Perhaps it would drive home the reallity of ditching a multi-million pound aircraft at a time when defence can't afford a new box of paperclips? Perhaps it keeps happening because there is an unspoken 'you can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs' mentality - the proper conduct of embarked aviation gets lost in the noise and excitement of the exercise. Flying is never 'for exercise'!!
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I remember an incident on OS85 [ think it was..] where a Canberra orbitted mother at 12,000ft, squawking like a Christmes tree and transmitting every couple of minutes, to act as a homing beacon for a SK well out of radar/radio range. It landed with 'oh sh*t' fuel first pass on a cleared deck...
Anyone remember?
Anyone remember?
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Lynx Runs Out of Fuel
Well, lets stoke up the rumour mill cos if it's in the Currant Bun then it must be true.
There in all its half page glory today for everyone to see:
'Lynx Runs Out of Fuel' - though the article does go on to perhaps lay the blame at whoever forgot to fill the tanks up.........!!!
Here\'s the embarassing link:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005151940,00.html
There in all its half page glory today for everyone to see:
'Lynx Runs Out of Fuel' - though the article does go on to perhaps lay the blame at whoever forgot to fill the tanks up.........!!!
Here\'s the embarassing link:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005151940,00.html
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HMS Nottingham home from deployment 07.04.05 15:38 -Navy News...
Type 42 destroyer HMS Nottingham has returned to Portsmouth after an eventful deployment to the Middle East.
Although she was part of the Marstrike 05 task group, led by HMS Invincible, the ships of the group have also had their own furrows to plough.
It is Nottingham’s first major deployment since she emerged from refit following her grounding on Wolf Rock off the coast of Australia in 2002.
Only three people remained on board who were with her at the time of the incident, and 70 per cent of the ship’s company are in their first draft in their current rate.
Their enthusiasm for the job was sorely tested by the rescue mission flown by the ship’s Lynx helicopter before Nottingham sailed through the Suez Canal on the way out.
The warship received a Mayday from the mv Vigla, saying the ship had exploded following a fire and was sinking off the coast of Malta in severe weather conditions.
As Nottingham ploughed through very rough seas towards the stricken ship at 24 knots, her Lynx flew ahead to see what could be done.
On arrival at the scene the helicopter found two large cargo vessels attempting to shelter a number of people in the water, the stricken ship having disappeared.
The Lynx, piloted by Lt Phil Richardson, battled 100 miles in difficult conditions to try to rescue the men, but their cumbersome cork lifejackets made it difficult to pluck them from the sea, and they were already in poor condition.
The Lynx, dubbed Strongbow, was forced to return to the destroyer as she had reached the limit if her endurance, so a liferaft was dropped in the hope the sailors could clamber aboard.
But by the time the destroyer reached the scene, around daybreak, there were still four men to be seen in the water.
Nottingham’s sea boat was launched, requiring great skill in the rough conditions, but all they could do was recover the four bodies.
“In some respects the guys who brought them back on board were glad they could do it,” said the ship’s Logistics Officer, Lt Cdr Gillian Russell.
“We went into Limassol, where the bodies were sent out from the ship.
“We had the colours at half-mast, piped them off the ship and everybody who could be spared was there on the flight deck to pay their respects.
“It brings it home to everybody on board that it a hostile environment we operate in.”
That sentiment was reinforced early last month when Nottingham’s Lynx made an emergency landing on the sea while carrying out a surveillance sweep in the Indian Ocean; the aircraft quickly sank but the three-strong crew escaped unhurt and were picked up by another helicopter and returned to the ship.
Type 42 destroyer HMS Nottingham has returned to Portsmouth after an eventful deployment to the Middle East.
Although she was part of the Marstrike 05 task group, led by HMS Invincible, the ships of the group have also had their own furrows to plough.
It is Nottingham’s first major deployment since she emerged from refit following her grounding on Wolf Rock off the coast of Australia in 2002.
Only three people remained on board who were with her at the time of the incident, and 70 per cent of the ship’s company are in their first draft in their current rate.
Their enthusiasm for the job was sorely tested by the rescue mission flown by the ship’s Lynx helicopter before Nottingham sailed through the Suez Canal on the way out.
The warship received a Mayday from the mv Vigla, saying the ship had exploded following a fire and was sinking off the coast of Malta in severe weather conditions.
As Nottingham ploughed through very rough seas towards the stricken ship at 24 knots, her Lynx flew ahead to see what could be done.
On arrival at the scene the helicopter found two large cargo vessels attempting to shelter a number of people in the water, the stricken ship having disappeared.
The Lynx, piloted by Lt Phil Richardson, battled 100 miles in difficult conditions to try to rescue the men, but their cumbersome cork lifejackets made it difficult to pluck them from the sea, and they were already in poor condition.
The Lynx, dubbed Strongbow, was forced to return to the destroyer as she had reached the limit if her endurance, so a liferaft was dropped in the hope the sailors could clamber aboard.
But by the time the destroyer reached the scene, around daybreak, there were still four men to be seen in the water.
Nottingham’s sea boat was launched, requiring great skill in the rough conditions, but all they could do was recover the four bodies.
“In some respects the guys who brought them back on board were glad they could do it,” said the ship’s Logistics Officer, Lt Cdr Gillian Russell.
“We went into Limassol, where the bodies were sent out from the ship.
“We had the colours at half-mast, piped them off the ship and everybody who could be spared was there on the flight deck to pay their respects.
“It brings it home to everybody on board that it a hostile environment we operate in.”
That sentiment was reinforced early last month when Nottingham’s Lynx made an emergency landing on the sea while carrying out a surveillance sweep in the Indian Ocean; the aircraft quickly sank but the three-strong crew escaped unhurt and were picked up by another helicopter and returned to the ship.
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Hang on....is that right?
"but their cumbersome cork lifejackets made it difficult to pluck them from the sea"
Are you saying that the Royal Navy cannot pick civilians out of the sea becasue the Board of trade lifejacket is TOO BIG ???? alarm !!!!
Is this the same with the RAF Seaking helicopters?
"but their cumbersome cork lifejackets made it difficult to pluck them from the sea"
Are you saying that the Royal Navy cannot pick civilians out of the sea becasue the Board of trade lifejacket is TOO BIG ???? alarm !!!!
Is this the same with the RAF Seaking helicopters?
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That would make more sense then. I hear on the grapevine (which is a long one down here in kernow) that the Lynx pilot has been sacked.....sounds a bit like the days prior to PACE when the standard phrase from the Jimmy's table was ..... "wheel the guilty B'strd in".....
Last edited by vecvechookattack; 13th Apr 2005 at 07:01.
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Fagins Goat...
IF it was established that a civil pilot crashed his a/c due to running out of fuel because he did not check his load sheet correctly and carry the correct fuel, and did not continue to do fuel checks, then yes, he would be sacked. However that civil industry does encourage open reporting 'to improve learning' and it works very well (as opposed to the italian side of things whereby several controllers have recently been jailed).
As for civil a/c always flying with tight fuel that is not true. They will fly with what is required depending on weather at destination and alternate, however many of them will fly with max fuel loads and take the hit on the increased drag/cost because the fuel at the airport they have just departed from is considerably cheaper than at their base airport.
IF it was established that a civil pilot crashed his a/c due to running out of fuel because he did not check his load sheet correctly and carry the correct fuel, and did not continue to do fuel checks, then yes, he would be sacked. However that civil industry does encourage open reporting 'to improve learning' and it works very well (as opposed to the italian side of things whereby several controllers have recently been jailed).
As for civil a/c always flying with tight fuel that is not true. They will fly with what is required depending on weather at destination and alternate, however many of them will fly with max fuel loads and take the hit on the increased drag/cost because the fuel at the airport they have just departed from is considerably cheaper than at their base airport.
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However that civil industry does encourage open reporting 'to improve learning' and it works very well
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VVCA,
Since the BOI has not yet even completed you need to be reminded that this is certainly NOT the case.
Disciplinary action will only ever follow the BOI report which normally (especially since Mull) cannot apportion blame only detrmine the cause and contibutory cause of the accident.
Additionally, why would it be the pilot and not any other member of the various teams looking after Air Safety.
I feel you are misinformed.
Since the BOI has not yet even completed you need to be reminded that this is certainly NOT the case.
Disciplinary action will only ever follow the BOI report which normally (especially since Mull) cannot apportion blame only detrmine the cause and contibutory cause of the accident.
Additionally, why would it be the pilot and not any other member of the various teams looking after Air Safety.
I feel you are misinformed.