Nottingham Lynx Ditching
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Oh I did enjoy those times very much - a Friday evening after the stresses of a week of flying training - an excuse to drink far too much, stitch up your mates by massively cheating at liar dice (the whole point of the game!) and bantering senseless anybody and everybody. But ... at least it was all open, people not hiding behind an anonymous login like this place. I guess now with the revamped PC Datum looking like a trendy bar people cant wait to get out and get online for their banter quotient!
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Are the Lynx community still training to find Krivaks using Orange Crop? NO (so I am told).
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apart from the fact that it ditched because it ran out of petrol No it didn't. The aircraft did not run out of fuel. It has probably got a load of fuel left in it, where ever it is.
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OK, point taken, I'll rephrase that:
"Apart from the fact that it was about to run out of petrol."
I would add some more thoughts but you would all construe this to be putting my oar in before the BOI results come out. I guess my 13 years and 2000 hours plus in maritime aviation doesnt really count, so I wont bother. Handbags - maybe, however on reflection the crew dont really deserve wild opinions being bandied about by people (like me) with no knowledge of what really happened.
Au revoir.
Oggin
"Apart from the fact that it was about to run out of petrol."
I would add some more thoughts but you would all construe this to be putting my oar in before the BOI results come out. I guess my 13 years and 2000 hours plus in maritime aviation doesnt really count, so I wont bother. Handbags - maybe, however on reflection the crew dont really deserve wild opinions being bandied about by people (like me) with no knowledge of what really happened.
Au revoir.
Oggin
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But surely thats the reason for this web site. Its a rumour network and if you hear a rumour then feel free to spread it around a bit on here.
Never let the truth get in the way if a good dit.
Never let the truth get in the way if a good dit.
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This whole thread is making me laugh. Lets face it, most of these accidents are made up of lots of avoidable mistakes. My old, old boss ditched a bag, even though lots of people should have seen the mistake unfolding (out of gas - crossed tracks). They all (the bag, lynx and ship) contributed to this accident in some way. The bag is drowned in information, the Lynx is staved of it and the ship probably does't have the experience to know how to use it. There are loads of mistakes the bag could have made (crossed tracks, no mode 2, reading the wrong info etc...) I am sure the lynx boys will get some critisism for running their fuel that close to MLA and the ship, probably for something to do with outhouse.
I have seen far worse mistakes, luckily some one noticed them early enough. Still, love a bit of rumour control. Are there any Naffi Managers here??
AND ANOTHER THING !!
Whether your a filthy pinger, lynx puke or godly bagman, never think you are any different to those involved in this accident. Bet you have all scre%^"d up at some time, luckily someone else noticed. I have!
Sorry, I have had a bottle of red and now feel wise all of a sudden? Very dangerous...
I have seen far worse mistakes, luckily some one noticed them early enough. Still, love a bit of rumour control. Are there any Naffi Managers here??
AND ANOTHER THING !!
Whether your a filthy pinger, lynx puke or godly bagman, never think you are any different to those involved in this accident. Bet you have all scre%^"d up at some time, luckily someone else noticed. I have!
Sorry, I have had a bottle of red and now feel wise all of a sudden? Very dangerous...
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Good points made by Razordome...I'm sure we can all say "there but for the grace of god" etc etc. and like he says...No one got hurt and many lessons "identified" .
There are rumours battling around VL that in this case however the Lynx guys will be assuming the "Off Caps" position.. I've heard that high ranking people want to blame someone and are baying ....
Now that worries me a little. Especially with the points made by Razor. We have all probably made mistakes...some we got away with...some we didn't. However, to throw the book at anyone for making a mistake will only bread a culture of deceit, sweep it under the carpet, keep it in the squadron, don't tell anyone etc etc. I strongly believe that the open and honest reporting policy we employ is the backbone of the Fleet Air Arm. Anything beyond a cockpit article is far too much.
A friend of mine works for the airlines (ex RN) and he mentioned the difference between the airlines and the military is that in the Airlines when there is an incident the company are happy to find out WHAT happened and leave it at that. In the military we seem to be breeding a culture of blame. We must have some one to blame and throw the book at....
Interesting concept.....
Oh and for Bigtop....the aircraft DID NOT run out of fuel.
There are rumours battling around VL that in this case however the Lynx guys will be assuming the "Off Caps" position.. I've heard that high ranking people want to blame someone and are baying ....
Now that worries me a little. Especially with the points made by Razor. We have all probably made mistakes...some we got away with...some we didn't. However, to throw the book at anyone for making a mistake will only bread a culture of deceit, sweep it under the carpet, keep it in the squadron, don't tell anyone etc etc. I strongly believe that the open and honest reporting policy we employ is the backbone of the Fleet Air Arm. Anything beyond a cockpit article is far too much.
A friend of mine works for the airlines (ex RN) and he mentioned the difference between the airlines and the military is that in the Airlines when there is an incident the company are happy to find out WHAT happened and leave it at that. In the military we seem to be breeding a culture of blame. We must have some one to blame and throw the book at....
Interesting concept.....
Oh and for Bigtop....the aircraft DID NOT run out of fuel.
Suspicion breeds confidence
A Lynx has a c260nm range and 2hr+ endurance. As I said earlier it would have been held on 1022 plot for almost its entire flight and been on the 996 for a good portion of it. I suspect someone been bloody careless in Nottingham's ops room. We'll see when the BOI reports.
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How can you state it would have been on the 1022 plot the whole time? Thats a huge assumption. If it was at considerable distance, down in the weeds, none of the ships sensors would have it. Basic radar theory dictates this. Reason for organic AEW etc etc blah blah. Not having a go but asking for clarification.
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260nm depends on lots of other factors. Lets say it was 260nm, so 130nm radius. For the ship to see the lynx at this range, the lynx would need to be just over 10,000 ft up. I would guess he was at 50-2500 ft.
This is getting into the weeds now, but to be visible on the 1022 (or 996) radar at 48nm from mum (think this was the actual pigeons), the lynx would theoretically need to be at 1521 ft (ish). My guess is that the Mk8 would conduct surface search at above this, with the PIDD, so the ship probably did have the lynx on 996 and/or 1022.
But, then again, the ships radars detecting the lynx is very different from them being bothered about tracking it and certainly far removed from concerns about its fuel, pigeons or the fact that mum is probably running in the opposite direction (ship SOP).
Another Wild A&$e Guess !!
This is getting into the weeds now, but to be visible on the 1022 (or 996) radar at 48nm from mum (think this was the actual pigeons), the lynx would theoretically need to be at 1521 ft (ish). My guess is that the Mk8 would conduct surface search at above this, with the PIDD, so the ship probably did have the lynx on 996 and/or 1022.
But, then again, the ships radars detecting the lynx is very different from them being bothered about tracking it and certainly far removed from concerns about its fuel, pigeons or the fact that mum is probably running in the opposite direction (ship SOP).
Another Wild A&$e Guess !!
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Oggin, you beat me to it!!
Potentially 100+nms from mum and down at 50 feet. No chance in the ship's radar holding that
Also, what if the ship is emcon silent??
That aside, even if you are operating in emcon silence, the point at which either the Aircrew or Ops Room on mum realise something is not right, surely that is the time to break silence and get everyone heading in the right direction to avoid tears and "off caps"
Potentially 100+nms from mum and down at 50 feet. No chance in the ship's radar holding that
Also, what if the ship is emcon silent??
That aside, even if you are operating in emcon silence, the point at which either the Aircrew or Ops Room on mum realise something is not right, surely that is the time to break silence and get everyone heading in the right direction to avoid tears and "off caps"
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My old, old boss ditched a bag
706 Re-enactment of Battle of Taranto, Taranto Night dinner at Cudrose, c.1987. Belated apologies to said sqn boss but I believe this is as true now as it was then.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Unless its hunting a russian whale why would it be that low? I read it was doing a surface search rather than an ASW mission (maybe duff info) so I don't think it would be at ultra low level for the entire sortie. You'd be amazed what 2,500ft can do to a radar picture! I would expect to hold a Lynx at 5k ft at 70 miles+ and used to track SK AEWs even further than that. The Navigating Officer would normally be responsible for keeping tags on the ships flight at all times and for making sure that the ship was in a postion to recover the helo when required.
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Some good points being made here but its clear that the T42 WAS indeed Emcom silent and so didn't hold anything on Radar although why on earth a T42 with the RCS of a block of flats needs to be Emcon silent is beyond me.
The Lynx was on a surface search and as such would be operating at 50' (100' at night). Why do Lynx flights operate at 50' - Gawd knows...seems blooming daft to me ... but they do.
On another note: Does anyone think it is time to change this antiquated "OUTHOUSE" procedure that no one understands and keeps getting people into trouble?
The Lynx was on a surface search and as such would be operating at 50' (100' at night). Why do Lynx flights operate at 50' - Gawd knows...seems blooming daft to me ... but they do.
On another note: Does anyone think it is time to change this antiquated "OUTHOUSE" procedure that no one understands and keeps getting people into trouble?
Last edited by totalwar; 24th Mar 2005 at 07:25.
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2,500ft would make a Lynx a very nice target for a ship launched SAM, hence the need to fly so low whilst searching for contacts.
Also the Flight LAC is responsible for keeping tabs on the endurance of the aircraft, the ships position from outhouse, and if possible, the position of the aircraft. Thus leaving the Navigator to avoid ships, reefs and large islands (or not)!!
Totalwar, OUTHOUSE is antiquated, but as long as mum remains within 10nm of it, there is no reason for it all to go wrong. In these days of GPS, the old "plot slippage" problem 42's used to suffer has been sorted. Also the 20 minute aviation cycle helps safeguard against OUTHOUSE wandering off unnoticed. Maybe in the future, with more and more data link fitted helicopters being used, a more reliable procedure could be used.
Also the Flight LAC is responsible for keeping tabs on the endurance of the aircraft, the ships position from outhouse, and if possible, the position of the aircraft. Thus leaving the Navigator to avoid ships, reefs and large islands (or not)!!
Totalwar, OUTHOUSE is antiquated, but as long as mum remains within 10nm of it, there is no reason for it all to go wrong. In these days of GPS, the old "plot slippage" problem 42's used to suffer has been sorted. Also the 20 minute aviation cycle helps safeguard against OUTHOUSE wandering off unnoticed. Maybe in the future, with more and more data link fitted helicopters being used, a more reliable procedure could be used.