Nottingham Lynx Ditching
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The gist of this thread so far is that the ship's equipment has known faults therefore changing the crews will make little difference.....
My question was that if the mk 7 was providing an information service it might have held the ship on its radar (I appreciate one is not a requirement of the other) and therefore been able to correlate the position given.
I suppose it also raises the question did the ship pass the correct position which the lynx crew then realised was too far away to make or was an incorrect position passed (due to plot slippage or whatever) which caused the lynx to fly the wrong way or think it required less fuel to get back to mum?
My question was that if the mk 7 was providing an information service it might have held the ship on its radar (I appreciate one is not a requirement of the other) and therefore been able to correlate the position given.
I suppose it also raises the question did the ship pass the correct position which the lynx crew then realised was too far away to make or was an incorrect position passed (due to plot slippage or whatever) which caused the lynx to fly the wrong way or think it required less fuel to get back to mum?
Last edited by Spanish Waltzer; 6th Mar 2005 at 07:41.
From CinC Fleet:
"Dear Nelson. When you get home, indent for Qty 1 x Garmin GPSMAP 188 Sounder which combines chartplotter and sounder capabilities in one unit, with split-screen capability so you can view your position and sounder information at the same time. That way you will both know where you are AND know where the rocks are as it also has a world-wide marine database. Costs £660 incl. VAT.
Then teach your successor how to use it. Also how to use those jolly expensive wirelesses to tell people where you b£oody well are when asked!
Love,
Admiral Sir Hugh W B Keele-Haughle"
"Dear Nelson. When you get home, indent for Qty 1 x Garmin GPSMAP 188 Sounder which combines chartplotter and sounder capabilities in one unit, with split-screen capability so you can view your position and sounder information at the same time. That way you will both know where you are AND know where the rocks are as it also has a world-wide marine database. Costs £660 incl. VAT.
Then teach your successor how to use it. Also how to use those jolly expensive wirelesses to tell people where you b£oody well are when asked!
Love,
Admiral Sir Hugh W B Keele-Haughle"
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Tourist - Yr Pedigree noted and I guess a fair point, 3 guys winching trained by 1 crew winching trained on a gin clear day in flat calm seas, okay no medals earnt!
As difficult as it may or not be to believe there are known Nav difficulties on a Type 42 Destroyer and due to the age of data processing equipment onboard it is not possible to just plug extra kit in. That is a fact.
The very simplified overview of bolt on extras (such as GPS) is a consideration but one which the chart loving navigators "well it was like that in my day" are struggling to come to terms with. All of us in the military know we operate with outdated kit that could easily be improved with COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf) alternatives but our lords and masters (namely "Smart Procurement") prevent us from having the gear (wont withstand 4000 deg C or 250 G impact etc etc) by pushing the cost of a COTS item to something that is not justifiable.
The wise man with 20/20 hindsight will be able to see many ways when the BoI reaches it's result for the "Chain of Events" to have been broken in this case, they always can, however the real trick is to get the MoD to buy some relatively cheap kit (in comparisson top the loss of an a/c or even worse any of the crew) to prevent it happenning again. Even then it isn't always infalliable, coming across the Indian Ocean in the late 90's the ship kept increasing the difference between the a/c GPS posn and the Ships GPS Posn, ended up 25 miles out as someone had reset the bridge GPS to a local Indian datum!! Much hilarity as we hauled over the horizon into Male Harbour 2 hours early!! So educating our people to question things and think for themselves is about the best investment we can make.
God I'm begining to sound old!!
As difficult as it may or not be to believe there are known Nav difficulties on a Type 42 Destroyer and due to the age of data processing equipment onboard it is not possible to just plug extra kit in. That is a fact.
The very simplified overview of bolt on extras (such as GPS) is a consideration but one which the chart loving navigators "well it was like that in my day" are struggling to come to terms with. All of us in the military know we operate with outdated kit that could easily be improved with COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf) alternatives but our lords and masters (namely "Smart Procurement") prevent us from having the gear (wont withstand 4000 deg C or 250 G impact etc etc) by pushing the cost of a COTS item to something that is not justifiable.
The wise man with 20/20 hindsight will be able to see many ways when the BoI reaches it's result for the "Chain of Events" to have been broken in this case, they always can, however the real trick is to get the MoD to buy some relatively cheap kit (in comparisson top the loss of an a/c or even worse any of the crew) to prevent it happenning again. Even then it isn't always infalliable, coming across the Indian Ocean in the late 90's the ship kept increasing the difference between the a/c GPS posn and the Ships GPS Posn, ended up 25 miles out as someone had reset the bridge GPS to a local Indian datum!! Much hilarity as we hauled over the horizon into Male Harbour 2 hours early!! So educating our people to question things and think for themselves is about the best investment we can make.
God I'm begining to sound old!!
If Capt Bligh managed to navigate an open boat 3618 nautical miles in 47 days after being cast adrift by the Bounty mutineers in 1789, how on earth can today's Royal Navy have 'known navigational difficulties on a Type 42'?
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I remember when 100 Sqn were complaining about the Hawk nav kit in the concept of LL intercept training over the North Sea. The only bit of nav kit they had - TACAN - was no good at 500ft 50 miles off the coast. They got pi**ed off with the procurement chain and the Eng Authority not working at an answer that they requested the authority to purchase hand held GPIs.
They were refused, on the grounds that the units would have to be procured through the normal channels and trialled by Boscombe. Lead time was quoted in years, so they went out and bought several from Sqn funds anyway!
They didn't have to be accurate to the last metre, but at least it gave them a fighting chance to provide a reasonable position [I don't know how well they worked - I was not on the Sqn].
I am somewhat surprised that the subject of the dodgy nav kit was not discussed amongst the ships Execs. Even further surprised that the Exec Cadre did not do the same and buy one out of their own pocket, knowing just how much of a career stopper is running aground or getting lost.
They were refused, on the grounds that the units would have to be procured through the normal channels and trialled by Boscombe. Lead time was quoted in years, so they went out and bought several from Sqn funds anyway!
They didn't have to be accurate to the last metre, but at least it gave them a fighting chance to provide a reasonable position [I don't know how well they worked - I was not on the Sqn].
I am somewhat surprised that the subject of the dodgy nav kit was not discussed amongst the ships Execs. Even further surprised that the Exec Cadre did not do the same and buy one out of their own pocket, knowing just how much of a career stopper is running aground or getting lost.
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Oh and just one more question......
If the ditching was controlled and the weather/sea state were epic then how come a navy helo with flotation gear attached sunk?
now there's one for the conspiracy theorists....!
If the ditching was controlled and the weather/sea state were epic then how come a navy helo with flotation gear attached sunk?
now there's one for the conspiracy theorists....!
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Just got back from away and out of comms.
Glad to hear Lynx crew are ok - well done to all involved for getting them back to mum safe.
As for all those who are naysaying about the praise, if you haven't got anything nice to say, then please refrain from speaking. It may never have occured to you to thank someone just for doing their job, but it may make a difference to them. I'm happy to give praise rather than have to express condolence, as we have all done too often recently.
Glad to hear Lynx crew are ok - well done to all involved for getting them back to mum safe.
As for all those who are naysaying about the praise, if you haven't got anything nice to say, then please refrain from speaking. It may never have occured to you to thank someone just for doing their job, but it may make a difference to them. I'm happy to give praise rather than have to express condolence, as we have all done too often recently.
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Forwardassist:
Good point, well made.
Totally agree.
But I must ask you, most sincerely, to stop wasting bandwidth on common sense comment and let the armchair generals get on with the business of deciding the cause ahead of the BoI.
Praise in public, damn in private...
Good point, well made.
Totally agree.
But I must ask you, most sincerely, to stop wasting bandwidth on common sense comment and let the armchair generals get on with the business of deciding the cause ahead of the BoI.
Praise in public, damn in private...
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If the ditching was controlled and the weather/sea state were epic then how come a navy helo with flotation gear attached sunk?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Hopefully adding to the thread, ditching/floatation kits were discussed here with this piccy.
and also here
There is a film around showing the Lynx floatation kit trials that I once saw on a flt safety course or maybe it was at the dunker, Yeovilton. They weren't meant to keep her afloat, but to allow time for crew to escape. If all the bags went off ok then it was fine, but if not she behaved unpredictably. When she started to go down, it was 'shockingly rapid'.
and also here
There is a film around showing the Lynx floatation kit trials that I once saw on a flt safety course or maybe it was at the dunker, Yeovilton. They weren't meant to keep her afloat, but to allow time for crew to escape. If all the bags went off ok then it was fine, but if not she behaved unpredictably. When she started to go down, it was 'shockingly rapid'.
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Concur about Lynx flotation characteristics; even with all flotbags operating it is only marginally more buoyant than a brick. If it did stay afloat for 45s then I would say that that was a result of the controlled arrival on a nice flat sea state.
I think that the T42 nav problems being talked about actually refer to the slippage that occurs within the AIO system – the system that the AC will be using in the ops room and that data link will also be relying on (hence Mk7 too?). The OOW will be using GPS based navigation, so he/she can reasonably be expected to know that the ship is within 10 miles of where they said that they would be. There should have been checks/balances in place at least every 20 minutes in the ship and in the helicopter to ensure that all the errors are identified and eliminated. If the ship is outside outhouse then 2 way comms are established (regardless of emcon - unless at war), the helo is told and the ship should try and get back inside 10 miles.
If doing something with more risk eg bad weather, silent/darkened ops then you fly to a ramp fuel (to keep a bit of time in hand to search for mum).
But the BOI will look at all of this.
Unfortunately aircraft have run out of fuel before (eg the SHAR on the container ship also assorted helos in the FOST areas) and will no doubt happen again. I’m just happy that I’m not going to another service at St. Bartholomew’s.
I think that the T42 nav problems being talked about actually refer to the slippage that occurs within the AIO system – the system that the AC will be using in the ops room and that data link will also be relying on (hence Mk7 too?). The OOW will be using GPS based navigation, so he/she can reasonably be expected to know that the ship is within 10 miles of where they said that they would be. There should have been checks/balances in place at least every 20 minutes in the ship and in the helicopter to ensure that all the errors are identified and eliminated. If the ship is outside outhouse then 2 way comms are established (regardless of emcon - unless at war), the helo is told and the ship should try and get back inside 10 miles.
If doing something with more risk eg bad weather, silent/darkened ops then you fly to a ramp fuel (to keep a bit of time in hand to search for mum).
But the BOI will look at all of this.
Unfortunately aircraft have run out of fuel before (eg the SHAR on the container ship also assorted helos in the FOST areas) and will no doubt happen again. I’m just happy that I’m not going to another service at St. Bartholomew’s.
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Just a couple of points for the mix!
1. The Lynx has the well known floating characteristics of a large, heavy breeze block. The lovely piccie of the Lynx during the trails was taken after the aircraft was gently lowered into the water from a crane! The other snag with the rear bags is that they float very close (too close) to the hot exhaust i.e. 'Pop!'. Thanks Westlands.
2. The system for keeping up to date as to where mother is is well known to all who have used it before. It is fraught with errors but enables the ship to remain sneaky in our wonderful EW spectrum filled world. Want to know where the Brit is? Look for the hole in the EW cover. The plot is not just kept in the Ops room however! There should have been a double plot on the bridge, just a point that the BOI will surely find.
3. Gulf is a lovely place to do winching. Piece of P**s.
4. Generally the Bags won't give FIS, two types of NATO control for ASuW, you know what they are.
5. As far as I know there has been no talk of fuel contamination and the reasons behind ditching where they did will, no doubt, come out.
6. The level of currency of front line aviation has always been a problem in the age of sweeping defence cuts and the flying hours cutback but we must remember that the crews fly thousands of hours a year in total. A single cockup should not blacken the whole view of Lynx crews carrying out their duties in some of the most tricky conditions in the world.(Not talking about the Gulf areas here ;-))
Steel helmet on, wait for the flak!
1. The Lynx has the well known floating characteristics of a large, heavy breeze block. The lovely piccie of the Lynx during the trails was taken after the aircraft was gently lowered into the water from a crane! The other snag with the rear bags is that they float very close (too close) to the hot exhaust i.e. 'Pop!'. Thanks Westlands.
2. The system for keeping up to date as to where mother is is well known to all who have used it before. It is fraught with errors but enables the ship to remain sneaky in our wonderful EW spectrum filled world. Want to know where the Brit is? Look for the hole in the EW cover. The plot is not just kept in the Ops room however! There should have been a double plot on the bridge, just a point that the BOI will surely find.
3. Gulf is a lovely place to do winching. Piece of P**s.
4. Generally the Bags won't give FIS, two types of NATO control for ASuW, you know what they are.
5. As far as I know there has been no talk of fuel contamination and the reasons behind ditching where they did will, no doubt, come out.
6. The level of currency of front line aviation has always been a problem in the age of sweeping defence cuts and the flying hours cutback but we must remember that the crews fly thousands of hours a year in total. A single cockup should not blacken the whole view of Lynx crews carrying out their duties in some of the most tricky conditions in the world.(Not talking about the Gulf areas here ;-))
Steel helmet on, wait for the flak!
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Good post from Paul M who by the large is correct. One small addendum...the piccie above is off a German Lynx which ditched in the Caribbean some years ago AND remained afloat long enough to be salvaged. Why? well it is generally considered that the main reason this one stayed on the surface was due to the cabin doors being shut and creating a bulkhead to ease the flow of water. It didn't make it watertight BUT it eased the flow and reduced the rocking.
I was always told that the main reason the Lynx floated like a brick was because of the nose. The area forward of the cockpit is empty except for a Radar scanner and once that cavernous area filled up with water the aircraft was only going to go in one direction.
I was always told that the main reason the Lynx floated like a brick was because of the nose. The area forward of the cockpit is empty except for a Radar scanner and once that cavernous area filled up with water the aircraft was only going to go in one direction.
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Totalwar,
My apologies, you are quite correct, should have seen the black nose. Doh!
Should have figured it out by the fact that t'was in colour! Wastelands piccies were black and white, bless 'em (I think??? Who cares!).
However, the theory still stands, calm conditions on a blue blue day and it might, with the help of a few dolphins, jelly fish and any other aquatic beast helping, stay afloat for a few nano seconds
My apologies, you are quite correct, should have seen the black nose. Doh!
Should have figured it out by the fact that t'was in colour! Wastelands piccies were black and white, bless 'em (I think??? Who cares!).
However, the theory still stands, calm conditions on a blue blue day and it might, with the help of a few dolphins, jelly fish and any other aquatic beast helping, stay afloat for a few nano seconds
Last edited by Paul McKeksdown; 7th Mar 2005 at 18:58.
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As others have implied it's actually surprising that this doesn't happen more often. Basically we have machines and aviators relying upon those who can't think quicker than 16kts to get them home safely.
I almost had to park in the og-splosh when 'those that should know better' mis-plotted the reference point by 30nm, my radar clearly showed a contact at the imaginary position of mum and i was quite happy to recover in total emcon, so stun radar and off radio at 50nm. All that was there was a trawler! Well below div fuel by now.... so off i set for big merchant man i had seen on the way. Broke radio silence and flashed up the radar and found mum by luck rather than judgement. Landed 'a little low on gas'.
When i pointed out to 'those that should have known better' how a little bit of finger faff had almost got me soggy and lost an aircraft i was met with the quote "What do you want? An apology?" Oh, and i got a bolly for breaking radio silence.
The simple truth of the matter is that ship drivers won't understand until they are forced to drive a ship that can empty it's fuel tanks in just over an hour, then sinks as a result.
I almost had to park in the og-splosh when 'those that should know better' mis-plotted the reference point by 30nm, my radar clearly showed a contact at the imaginary position of mum and i was quite happy to recover in total emcon, so stun radar and off radio at 50nm. All that was there was a trawler! Well below div fuel by now.... so off i set for big merchant man i had seen on the way. Broke radio silence and flashed up the radar and found mum by luck rather than judgement. Landed 'a little low on gas'.
When i pointed out to 'those that should have known better' how a little bit of finger faff had almost got me soggy and lost an aircraft i was met with the quote "What do you want? An apology?" Oh, and i got a bolly for breaking radio silence.
The simple truth of the matter is that ship drivers won't understand until they are forced to drive a ship that can empty it's fuel tanks in just over an hour, then sinks as a result.
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My apologies, you are quite correct, should have seen the black nose
The simple truth of the matter is that ship drivers won't understand until they are forced to drive a ship that can empty it's fuel tanks in just over an hour, then sinks as a result
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Yeah, got a point, thats a bit of a give away too!
Didn't think the Lynx, even the Jerry one, t'was made of Iron though! Might have a hand in it's floating characteristics methinks!
Didn't think the Lynx, even the Jerry one, t'was made of Iron though! Might have a hand in it's floating characteristics methinks!
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Glad to hear all well - since I left the mob in 2002 the number of RN aircrew killed in flying accidents is in double figures. Thankfully another three have not been added to the list.
I was an OOW on a Type 42 1999-2001. If I remember rightly the T42 nav problem was solved by ADAWS 2000 taking its positional data directly from GPS. There was still a problem with waypoints drifting very very slowly - about one nautical mile per hour. That is certainly not enough to end up with the cab ditching for lack of fuel.
Seems to me a more likely cause may have been somebody read back/written down a position incorrectly resulting in the ditching.
I ended up working on an FA2 squadron as a Freddie before I left. I felt I was more FAA then fish head by the end but sometimes aircrew can be a bit to quick to have a go at mum and fish heads, not to say the latter are always blameless.
Can't believe Charles Style made Admiral.
I was an OOW on a Type 42 1999-2001. If I remember rightly the T42 nav problem was solved by ADAWS 2000 taking its positional data directly from GPS. There was still a problem with waypoints drifting very very slowly - about one nautical mile per hour. That is certainly not enough to end up with the cab ditching for lack of fuel.
Seems to me a more likely cause may have been somebody read back/written down a position incorrectly resulting in the ditching.
I ended up working on an FA2 squadron as a Freddie before I left. I felt I was more FAA then fish head by the end but sometimes aircrew can be a bit to quick to have a go at mum and fish heads, not to say the latter are always blameless.
Can't believe Charles Style made Admiral.