Pay as You Starve!
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Pay as You Starve!
Anyone had much experience with the new Pay As You Dine system? Would be nice to know others experiences, thoughts etc.
I believe the Navy have a trial unit, and RAF have two up and running?!?
TheBeeKeeper
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I believe the Navy have a trial unit, and RAF have two up and running?!?
TheBeeKeeper
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PAYD marks the end of the paternalistic nonsense of charging people for meals they neither want nor eat (which, one day, will surely rank alongside underwear inspections in the "stupid ex-QR" league).
Eat what you want, when you want. What is there not to like about it? (Please spare us the guff about kids pi$$ing their dinner money up the wall. If a few junior service personnel start becoming starving alcoholics, then, like most aspects of personal care, it will soon become pretty obvious to even the daftest line manager).
PAYD Website could do with updating though
Eat what you want, when you want. What is there not to like about it? (Please spare us the guff about kids pi$$ing their dinner money up the wall. If a few junior service personnel start becoming starving alcoholics, then, like most aspects of personal care, it will soon become pretty obvious to even the daftest line manager).
PAYD Website could do with updating though
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Come off it. Unless MOD is saving money, they would not have changed anything. Can garantee that once this in place, food standards will go down, cost will go up, and we will begin to live in segregated messes where everyone eats take-out and cooks food in their room microwaves. Very social for an officers mess.
Not great. for a hundred quid a month, I get very reasonable food, a full breakfast, good lunch and silver service 3 course meal, followed by cheese and biccys.... how much is that going to cost on the PAYD scheme? I get paid enough not really to care if i miss one or two meals.
Not great. for a hundred quid a month, I get very reasonable food, a full breakfast, good lunch and silver service 3 course meal, followed by cheese and biccys.... how much is that going to cost on the PAYD scheme? I get paid enough not really to care if i miss one or two meals.
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'Can garantee that once this in place, food standards will go up'
I think not, food standards here have gone down considerably. Chefs are being told which suppliers they are to use and to spend less on the cuts of meat etc. As for the ORs, they are getting a rough deal, thier mess has been turned into an all ranks and civil servants facility (so, no where to go of a lunch time and slag off your boss).
And the contractor is still not making money because people are voting with their feet! Contractors solution to this problem? They are wanting to start combined messing at the weekends for starters, with a view to 7 day a week combined messing!
So how long will the Officers Mess and SNCOs Mess last? Who knows!
TheBeeKeeper
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'Can garantee that once this in place, food standards will go up'
I think not, food standards here have gone down considerably. Chefs are being told which suppliers they are to use and to spend less on the cuts of meat etc. As for the ORs, they are getting a rough deal, thier mess has been turned into an all ranks and civil servants facility (so, no where to go of a lunch time and slag off your boss).
And the contractor is still not making money because people are voting with their feet! Contractors solution to this problem? They are wanting to start combined messing at the weekends for starters, with a view to 7 day a week combined messing!
So how long will the Officers Mess and SNCOs Mess last? Who knows!
TheBeeKeeper
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The big problem with the current system is that some people eat 21 meals a week and some do not eat in the Mess. However, they both pay the same food charge. If we go to a mess where the take-up is low we get fabulous meals. If we go to somewhere like RAF Saxa Vord, where the take-up is high, the standard is not so good.
The next problem is the lack of investment in the infrastructure of our Junior Ranks Faciliities, they are falling apart. If you look at RAF Leuchars (the STC PAYD Trial Site) there is a complete new facility with Bowl, Bar, Restaurant, Cafe etc. The sort of facilities you would frequent if you went down town. The option on whether personnel eat there is up to them, if the quality is not good enough, or the price is not low enough, there will not be the custom. Early indications are that it is a good thing!
The next problem is the lack of investment in the infrastructure of our Junior Ranks Faciliities, they are falling apart. If you look at RAF Leuchars (the STC PAYD Trial Site) there is a complete new facility with Bowl, Bar, Restaurant, Cafe etc. The sort of facilities you would frequent if you went down town. The option on whether personnel eat there is up to them, if the quality is not good enough, or the price is not low enough, there will not be the custom. Early indications are that it is a good thing!
Last edited by SteveStephens; 11th Aug 2004 at 20:46.
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mbga9pgf
Of course, people might also question why they're having to subsidise Flying Officer Billy Bunter in the Officers' Mess
TheBeeKeeper
Does having 3 kitchens on one stn, with a handfull of people eating in each mess, really make any sense? By all means, keep individual mess dining rooms and kitchens for the odd formal do, but centralised messing is almost inevitable. If necessary, have segregated areas for different ranks in one dining room.
Of course, people might also question why they're having to subsidise Flying Officer Billy Bunter in the Officers' Mess
TheBeeKeeper
Does having 3 kitchens on one stn, with a handfull of people eating in each mess, really make any sense? By all means, keep individual mess dining rooms and kitchens for the odd formal do, but centralised messing is almost inevitable. If necessary, have segregated areas for different ranks in one dining room.
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Steve, dont you think that they undoubtedly are going to ram loads of funding into the initial PAYD projects, to sway the vote as it were toward PAYD. I highly doubt similar funding would be provided around the Air Force if PAYD came online.
Ultimately, the officers mess is non-public anyway, unlike junior (not sure about sgts??) however, I have no objection to junior or sgts messes going over to PAYD as undoubtedly they will benefit from the sceme; far more of them to contribute. I am slightly concerned however that the move in the long run for the OM will be asignificant worsening of standards, and a massively increased cost for all involved in wishing to have an active Mess social life. The ideal method of course would be current feeding arrangements that allow you to claim a Missed meal allowance for the money you have paid for meals but through no fault of your own have been unable to eat; those with one or two missed meals will hardly bother; those with a significant proportion of their days away in a month can claim back what they are entitled to.
Ultimately, the officers mess is non-public anyway, unlike junior (not sure about sgts??) however, I have no objection to junior or sgts messes going over to PAYD as undoubtedly they will benefit from the sceme; far more of them to contribute. I am slightly concerned however that the move in the long run for the OM will be asignificant worsening of standards, and a massively increased cost for all involved in wishing to have an active Mess social life. The ideal method of course would be current feeding arrangements that allow you to claim a Missed meal allowance for the money you have paid for meals but through no fault of your own have been unable to eat; those with one or two missed meals will hardly bother; those with a significant proportion of their days away in a month can claim back what they are entitled to.
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mbga9pgf
You are right, ESS did make RAF Leuchars the Flagship and there were aspects of the development that pushed through irrespective of cost. However, that said, it is a fantastic improvement to the quality of life.
As for life in the Mess, well I think that is dying anyway. The old days of having a dozen formal events a year for 10 shillings is long gone. It is time to try and bring the Service Community back together.
Pay As You Dine may not be the answer, but the question was lost a long time ago.
The Officers' Mess is a mixture of public and non-public money. Yes the Members contribute to the runnig of the Mess (non-public) but the building, staffing and maintenence is picked up by the public purse. The same as the Sgts' Mess. The Junior Ranks Mess is all public.
You are right, ESS did make RAF Leuchars the Flagship and there were aspects of the development that pushed through irrespective of cost. However, that said, it is a fantastic improvement to the quality of life.
As for life in the Mess, well I think that is dying anyway. The old days of having a dozen formal events a year for 10 shillings is long gone. It is time to try and bring the Service Community back together.
Pay As You Dine may not be the answer, but the question was lost a long time ago.
The Officers' Mess is a mixture of public and non-public money. Yes the Members contribute to the runnig of the Mess (non-public) but the building, staffing and maintenence is picked up by the public purse. The same as the Sgts' Mess. The Junior Ranks Mess is all public.
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Steve, fully agree that life in the mess is changing. and I also fully subscribe to accepting any changes supposedly in the services interest. But I joined for the life, not a job.
Having said that, I also joined understanding that with the armed forces, you either jump on the bus, or get trampled. I dont mean for any of my comments to be winges, just observations from a permanent live-er in at possibly the most lifeless mess in the Air force!
Having said that, I also joined understanding that with the armed forces, you either jump on the bus, or get trampled. I dont mean for any of my comments to be winges, just observations from a permanent live-er in at possibly the most lifeless mess in the Air force!
PAYD at RAF Henlow a bit of a culture shock. I don't know whether the soldiers and Airmen (the only sailors I saw were SNCO/officers) want to eat in a formica filled, down market looking motorway service station -type environment.....but they now have to.
As for the officers' mess, many of the same cheerful staff (for another year or two - until closure?) but food standards definitely down. Fewer choices (often exhausted very quickly further reducing choice) and not of the same quality - subjective I know but you did ask.
Agree that only reason was to save money....if it ain't broke don't fix it = if it was cost neutral where was the demand for change? (expect an avalanche of stats form some counsultant on that one but I still won't believe it).
Bon apetit !
As for the officers' mess, many of the same cheerful staff (for another year or two - until closure?) but food standards definitely down. Fewer choices (often exhausted very quickly further reducing choice) and not of the same quality - subjective I know but you did ask.
Agree that only reason was to save money....if it ain't broke don't fix it = if it was cost neutral where was the demand for change? (expect an avalanche of stats form some counsultant on that one but I still won't believe it).
Bon apetit !
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From what I have been briefed we can also expect to see bar prices shoot up as all catering on stns will fall under PAYD, not just food (OK, so beer is food). Bars will be run by the PAYD contractor = normal civvy prices. Anyone with direct experience of the pilot stns got any gen on this?
PAYD might be fairer than the current system in principle, ie why should those that choose to miss some meals subsidise the rest, but is the alternative of worse and/or more expensive food any better? I think not, plus add in the likelyhood of combined messing and another chip away at military ethos. Maybe the 'E' in 'RISE' stands for 'Eating together'?!
Good news is that PAYD pilot projects don't appear to be a runaway success with the contractor apparently loosing money, and implementation has slipped at least a year. At least they aren't hostages to fortune by calling it something with a year in the title like CS95 or Pay 2000! (or even Eurofighter 2000!)
PAYD might be fairer than the current system in principle, ie why should those that choose to miss some meals subsidise the rest, but is the alternative of worse and/or more expensive food any better? I think not, plus add in the likelyhood of combined messing and another chip away at military ethos. Maybe the 'E' in 'RISE' stands for 'Eating together'?!
Good news is that PAYD pilot projects don't appear to be a runaway success with the contractor apparently loosing money, and implementation has slipped at least a year. At least they aren't hostages to fortune by calling it something with a year in the title like CS95 or Pay 2000! (or even Eurofighter 2000!)
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Now I might be speaking out of turn, but I suggest the subscribers to this debate are all of officer rank. The huge change to quality of life is that of the junior ranks. I personally do not agree that RAF Henlow is "formica filled, down market looking motorway service station". The Cafe Ritazza sells all the food you would want to buy, ciabatas, capacino (excuse the spellings no great on foreign!).
As for the pricing regimes, they are carefully governed between the Authority (Stn) and the Supplier Partner (Contractor).
I could bore you for hours on the way PAYD is funded, but essentially the Authority contributes considerably to it. In STC the Supplier Partner gets the Core Catering Manpower for nothing. Therefore, costs are kept to a minimum.
As I said before, if the troops do not like it they will not use it!
As for the pricing regimes, they are carefully governed between the Authority (Stn) and the Supplier Partner (Contractor).
I could bore you for hours on the way PAYD is funded, but essentially the Authority contributes considerably to it. In STC the Supplier Partner gets the Core Catering Manpower for nothing. Therefore, costs are kept to a minimum.
As I said before, if the troops do not like it they will not use it!
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Well let the junior ranks have it then. Adoption of PAYD should be brought into the Officers and sgts messes through a vote at the AGM, not forced in by beaurocracy. Everyone in the main then will be happy.
To give you ean example how rediculous things are already, at our mess we can only select certain wines and Champagne if the contractor who supplies them has them on the official list; a local bloke who visited us on a wine tasting night had an almost perfect bottle of champagne, far cheaper than what the top priced one was behind the bar, and surprise surprise, due to contracts we couldnt stock up. Bloody Typical. And whose mess exactly is it?
I agree things must improve for the Junior Ranks, but their messes are wholly funded by public funds. So lets sack some civil servants responsible for high level beaurocracy and cost cutting like PAYD and other silly government schemes and use their salaries to suppliment the Junior Ranks.
Steve, surely if the Junior Ranks dont use it, yet STC are stuck in a contact with some civvie company loosing money as a result, we aren't exactly doing everything to save desperately required funds and PAYD will become another scheme despised by all as a waste of cash!
Save our Messes!
To give you ean example how rediculous things are already, at our mess we can only select certain wines and Champagne if the contractor who supplies them has them on the official list; a local bloke who visited us on a wine tasting night had an almost perfect bottle of champagne, far cheaper than what the top priced one was behind the bar, and surprise surprise, due to contracts we couldnt stock up. Bloody Typical. And whose mess exactly is it?
I agree things must improve for the Junior Ranks, but their messes are wholly funded by public funds. So lets sack some civil servants responsible for high level beaurocracy and cost cutting like PAYD and other silly government schemes and use their salaries to suppliment the Junior Ranks.
Steve, surely if the Junior Ranks dont use it, yet STC are stuck in a contact with some civvie company loosing money as a result, we aren't exactly doing everything to save desperately required funds and PAYD will become another scheme despised by all as a waste of cash!
Save our Messes!
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mbga9pgf - check your pm's mate!
I can't believe you're whingin' about the quality of yor champers, the last time I saw you it was kebabs morning, noon, and night!
EP
I can't believe you're whingin' about the quality of yor champers, the last time I saw you it was kebabs morning, noon, and night!
EP
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SteveStephens
Have you been to lunch at Crystals - RAF Henlow? Counted the number of people that actually use the facility? It's not good and ESS are certainly not making money!
As for the quality of the food, menu options that would have normally been on offer before PAYD are now offered as A la Carte options costing you twice as much as the core menu!
Don't even get me started on bar prices!!!!! ESS don't make money on the drinks for a start, they buy the stock, provide the staff and sell the drinks on at cost plus whatever GPP has been decided by the committee. We are not allowed to choose who supplies the beer, which tends to suggest that ESS have their own preferred suppliers who, at the end of the year offer a bonus in the way of kick back as a percentage of the amount of beer etc purchased. The knock on effect of this, is that the supplier can (and does) put up the prices regularly and it makes no difference to ESS and actually benefits them. I would get my hand slapped if I even tried to phone the supplier to ask anything about prices.
Typical example recently, sun is shining, Sunday afternoon, jug of Pimms in the garden, you know the drill! ESS are buying Pimms in at £18/litre for the mess...... surely I should not be able to go to a supermarket and buy it for £12/litre! Admittedly, we don't pay a great deal for our drinks, but if we were using different suppliers and introduce a little competition, then at least we could increase our GPP putting more cash into ents funtions throughout the year. This problem is not just confined to the OM, ESS buy for Juniors and SNCOs too!
TheBeeKeeper
(DH82b)
Have you been to lunch at Crystals - RAF Henlow? Counted the number of people that actually use the facility? It's not good and ESS are certainly not making money!
As for the quality of the food, menu options that would have normally been on offer before PAYD are now offered as A la Carte options costing you twice as much as the core menu!
Don't even get me started on bar prices!!!!! ESS don't make money on the drinks for a start, they buy the stock, provide the staff and sell the drinks on at cost plus whatever GPP has been decided by the committee. We are not allowed to choose who supplies the beer, which tends to suggest that ESS have their own preferred suppliers who, at the end of the year offer a bonus in the way of kick back as a percentage of the amount of beer etc purchased. The knock on effect of this, is that the supplier can (and does) put up the prices regularly and it makes no difference to ESS and actually benefits them. I would get my hand slapped if I even tried to phone the supplier to ask anything about prices.
Typical example recently, sun is shining, Sunday afternoon, jug of Pimms in the garden, you know the drill! ESS are buying Pimms in at £18/litre for the mess...... surely I should not be able to go to a supermarket and buy it for £12/litre! Admittedly, we don't pay a great deal for our drinks, but if we were using different suppliers and introduce a little competition, then at least we could increase our GPP putting more cash into ents funtions throughout the year. This problem is not just confined to the OM, ESS buy for Juniors and SNCOs too!
TheBeeKeeper
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What an interesting thread! 15 to 20 years ago there was a great push for PAYD. All the 'livers-in' suggested that this was going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. Those of us that were trying to 'hold the line' were slammed as being 'old fogies' completely out of touch with what the modern RAF needed.
Funny old thing how things tend to come full circle. You are now at the half way point where you have got (eventually) what was wanted. You will now have a long way to go (if ever) before it gets back to some reasonable service and quality of life. Old Chinese curse - may you get what you want!
In the wider picture - contracting out won't work. What happens when there is an overriding national interest type situation? Will the contractors continue to fulfill their obligations? Trenchard had the right idea with the contraction of the 1920s. Contract (ie, downsize) by all means but retain a nucleus of each branch so that when expansion comes (which it will eventually - Bliar can't last for ever) each branch has the instructors it needs to rapidly expand. Right now the Armed Forces are losing expertise which cannot be replaced and is not being passed on.
I dare say that this is totally wasted on some of the feckwits that are now up at the top (all sqn ldrs when I was in - and some of them I wouldn't give you tuppence for). So, Good Morning CAS, read and inwardly digest. Ignore history at your peril.
Funny old thing how things tend to come full circle. You are now at the half way point where you have got (eventually) what was wanted. You will now have a long way to go (if ever) before it gets back to some reasonable service and quality of life. Old Chinese curse - may you get what you want!
In the wider picture - contracting out won't work. What happens when there is an overriding national interest type situation? Will the contractors continue to fulfill their obligations? Trenchard had the right idea with the contraction of the 1920s. Contract (ie, downsize) by all means but retain a nucleus of each branch so that when expansion comes (which it will eventually - Bliar can't last for ever) each branch has the instructors it needs to rapidly expand. Right now the Armed Forces are losing expertise which cannot be replaced and is not being passed on.
I dare say that this is totally wasted on some of the feckwits that are now up at the top (all sqn ldrs when I was in - and some of them I wouldn't give you tuppence for). So, Good Morning CAS, read and inwardly digest. Ignore history at your peril.
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As an ex Manchester Uni stude the name Abdul's takes me back a few years!!! Without doubt the finest chicken kebab in the world. Although I always reckoned the Wilmslow Road branch in Fallowfield was the best!
Who'd have thought it would take a kebab shop to make my first post!
Who'd have thought it would take a kebab shop to make my first post!
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If you want to get rich quick try to get a mcdonalds up and running in carterton, or if thats a bit difficult try getting shares in franks chinky or alex kebabs outside the osprey. there is no way a unit the size of this one here could run a payd, whom will gamble on providing 800 meals a session if everyone turns up, or cook 800 if no one does. But still looking forward to some nice meals in downtown khartoum with General Gordon, any one know any sudanese kebab shop locations
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Ick
"What about sauces to compliment ones dining experience. Call me old fashioned but i rather enjoy some horseradish sauce with roast beef. But oh no-- now I can only have a SATCHET of horseradish, individually charged to my account----SATCHETS in an officers' mess!!!!"
"the powers that be have already read my mind and implemented these screw down plastic chairs.All very officer like!!!"
I go down route regular as a regular thing with "royals" who seem to like nothing better that eating cheap in the Arches etc as on the ground "eatings cheating". The fact that they also have absolutey no prob's with plastic and sachets and bearing in mind that even on here it would seem kebab's and other junk food are the "tales of tomorrow" why suddenly on return to the heartland does one feel the need to have ones status massaged with silver service?
I had thought the "upper class pompous twit" thing was on the way out...guess I was wrong Combined messing.....bring it on and see how the other half live!
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
"What about sauces to compliment ones dining experience. Call me old fashioned but i rather enjoy some horseradish sauce with roast beef. But oh no-- now I can only have a SATCHET of horseradish, individually charged to my account----SATCHETS in an officers' mess!!!!"
"the powers that be have already read my mind and implemented these screw down plastic chairs.All very officer like!!!"
I go down route regular as a regular thing with "royals" who seem to like nothing better that eating cheap in the Arches etc as on the ground "eatings cheating". The fact that they also have absolutey no prob's with plastic and sachets and bearing in mind that even on here it would seem kebab's and other junk food are the "tales of tomorrow" why suddenly on return to the heartland does one feel the need to have ones status massaged with silver service?
I had thought the "upper class pompous twit" thing was on the way out...guess I was wrong
Combined messing.....bring it on and see how the other half live!all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced