Pay as You Starve!
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The Power of Pprune
Mail on Sunday 8 Aug 04
Jason Lewis - Whitehall Correspondent
Dash it all! Now they're turning the officers' mess into a canteen...
Lifted directly from mgba9pgf on page 1 of this thread
Lifted directly from iccarus on page 2 of this thread
Thats enough cutting and pasting. Another half dozen quotes are taken directly from this thread.
I wonder if they'll quote me:-
The best thing about being in H M Forces...is waking up in your own mess.
Jason Lewis - Whitehall Correspondent
Dash it all! Now they're turning the officers' mess into a canteen...
One unnamed Squadron Leader said 'For a hundred quid a month......etc
One officer quoted on anunofficial services website says 'Call me old fashioned...etc
Thats enough cutting and pasting. Another half dozen quotes are taken directly from this thread.
I wonder if they'll quote me:-
The best thing about being in H M Forces...is waking up in your own mess.
My two penny’s worth having just come out of the present system.
Separate messes a must. For a start everyone needs a break from there boss, also in my experience a lot of decisions / discussions / advice go on over the lunch / dining table. I certainly learnt a lot listening to my peers in the SNCO's mess.
My last mess, on a frontline station, (clue goes up vertically just don’t hang things off the wings) shut at the weekends (including the bar) and it was back to the JRM (after booking a meal) the troops didn’t want us there as much as we didn’t want to be there. There was no animosity but it was there dining room and I don't walk into your dining room uninvited.
I don't agree with PAYD, and as a SNCO that ran a section full of youngsters I have thought about it and discussed it at length with the troops. Most of them won't pay out of principle and that’s because they hate the mess as it is, wave a get out clause in front of them and they will gladly accept it. They will live on fast food out the Spar or p
it up against the wall. Ok that’s there choice but there supposed to be in the military and part of that regime, like it or not, involves a certain level of fitness. Letting the troops eat fast food all week is not going to help that cause.
I have yet to eat in a mess where the contractors have provided a better service, period. There in it to make money not to feed people and I fail to see how contracting catering services out will help any military organization.
It may make me sound like an old f*** but people who bang on about freedom of choice in the military worry me, are they the same people who insisted on single rooms for even the most lowly of ranks? I know of least three suicides that happened during my time that partly could be put down to sending someone to a single room on a Friday night in the middle of winter, miles from home, with no entertainment and nothing to do for miles around. Im convinced that making troops in there first two years of service share a room would solve a lot of the problems the military suffer with its younger brethren.
PAYD may not lead to suicides but it’s yet another nail in the coffin of the military caring about its people.
Rant over, sorry it’s a bit long winded.
Separate messes a must. For a start everyone needs a break from there boss, also in my experience a lot of decisions / discussions / advice go on over the lunch / dining table. I certainly learnt a lot listening to my peers in the SNCO's mess.
My last mess, on a frontline station, (clue goes up vertically just don’t hang things off the wings) shut at the weekends (including the bar) and it was back to the JRM (after booking a meal) the troops didn’t want us there as much as we didn’t want to be there. There was no animosity but it was there dining room and I don't walk into your dining room uninvited.
I don't agree with PAYD, and as a SNCO that ran a section full of youngsters I have thought about it and discussed it at length with the troops. Most of them won't pay out of principle and that’s because they hate the mess as it is, wave a get out clause in front of them and they will gladly accept it. They will live on fast food out the Spar or p
it up against the wall. Ok that’s there choice but there supposed to be in the military and part of that regime, like it or not, involves a certain level of fitness. Letting the troops eat fast food all week is not going to help that cause.I have yet to eat in a mess where the contractors have provided a better service, period. There in it to make money not to feed people and I fail to see how contracting catering services out will help any military organization.
It may make me sound like an old f*** but people who bang on about freedom of choice in the military worry me, are they the same people who insisted on single rooms for even the most lowly of ranks? I know of least three suicides that happened during my time that partly could be put down to sending someone to a single room on a Friday night in the middle of winter, miles from home, with no entertainment and nothing to do for miles around. Im convinced that making troops in there first two years of service share a room would solve a lot of the problems the military suffer with its younger brethren.
PAYD may not lead to suicides but it’s yet another nail in the coffin of the military caring about its people.
Rant over, sorry it’s a bit long winded.
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Skeleton
You will see from my previous posts that much of what you say has already been discussed. I am sure, when you were an airman, you moaned at having to pay for food you did not eat. This has been going on for many a year and one of the reasons that PAYD is being trialled.
It is true that some people will not eat in the new facilities, for your information nearly 50% of RAF personnel do not eat in the messes now. However, PAYD is about choice, the Contractor has to provide services that are attractive. It is not a MAC, the contractor does not get any money if their are no customers!
As a final point, PAYD has been running at a number of sites for over a year. No one, to my knowledge, has starved or gone without meals. In my experience, if you treat people like adults, then they act like them.
Steve
You will see from my previous posts that much of what you say has already been discussed. I am sure, when you were an airman, you moaned at having to pay for food you did not eat. This has been going on for many a year and one of the reasons that PAYD is being trialled.
It is true that some people will not eat in the new facilities, for your information nearly 50% of RAF personnel do not eat in the messes now. However, PAYD is about choice, the Contractor has to provide services that are attractive. It is not a MAC, the contractor does not get any money if their are no customers!
As a final point, PAYD has been running at a number of sites for over a year. No one, to my knowledge, has starved or gone without meals. In my experience, if you treat people like adults, then they act like them.
Steve
Morning Steve,
I had read the thread with interest before I posted. Just giving my take on the situation.
I was aware a large proportion of airmen don't eat in the mess as it is, but in my experience the more junior members, by that I mean people in there first two years of service, said yes I want PAYD because it means I won't have to use the mess at all. I would hope that if you treat people like adults they would act like them but I would need convincing
I cant comment on what services the contractors now provide, I can only comment on what I saw in the past and have to say IMHO it was not of an acceptable standard.
I would hope no one would starve, as has been said even the most unsubtle of line manager should notice if Porky Bloogs turns into a Racing Whippet.
I dont agree with PAYD, but understand that the majority probably do, I would certainly be failing in my job as a line manager if it was implemented and I didn't take an interest in wether the troops were actually eating properly. I remain to be convinced that some (not all) actually will be.
I had read the thread with interest before I posted. Just giving my take on the situation.
I was aware a large proportion of airmen don't eat in the mess as it is, but in my experience the more junior members, by that I mean people in there first two years of service, said yes I want PAYD because it means I won't have to use the mess at all. I would hope that if you treat people like adults they would act like them but I would need convincing
I cant comment on what services the contractors now provide, I can only comment on what I saw in the past and have to say IMHO it was not of an acceptable standard.
I would hope no one would starve, as has been said even the most unsubtle of line manager should notice if Porky Bloogs turns into a Racing Whippet.
I dont agree with PAYD, but understand that the majority probably do, I would certainly be failing in my job as a line manager if it was implemented and I didn't take an interest in wether the troops were actually eating properly. I remain to be convinced that some (not all) actually will be.
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I dont agree with PAYD, but understand that the
majority probably do
majority probably do
Its just a shame that no one who has anything to do with implementing PAYD here's the stories. On a visit to CAM at Henlow, our course (we weren't the first and won't be the last) complained about PAYD, to which we were put in out box by the Sqn Ldr who obviously was in favour, despite never having lived in the mess and sampled it. Our method of complaining meant that no on heard about it. A comment to the mess reception that the system was poorly ran, and that the staff knew little about how the system affected normal livers in, was taken, but I doubt anything was done about it. There isn't even a comments/forum element to the PAYD website(Not the folder issues in the hyperlink - it is one which is being ignored) Unfortunately, PAYD is just another degregation of Service life.
Point me in the direction of an officer who has benefited from PAYD.
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Skeleton said
Do you ask the single youngsters who live out in privatley rented accom what they had to eat and if they are eating properly?
Likewise do you check that each person living in the block has eaten breakfast? After all isn't it still a chargeable offence not to eat breakfast?
edited to remove a freudian slip
I would certainly be failing in my job as a line manager if it was implemented and I didn't take an interest in wether the troops were actually eating properly
Likewise do you check that each person living in the block has eaten breakfast? After all isn't it still a chargeable offence not to eat breakfast?
edited to remove a freudian slip
Last edited by November4; 17th Sep 2004 at 17:20.
Unfortunately, PAYD is just another degregation of Service life
Likewise do you check that each person living in the bloke has eaten breakfast? After all isn't it still a chargeable offence not to eat breakfast?
That rule was taken out ages ago I believe.
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Just like to pose another situation. What do we do for the young airman who marries a divorced women with 5 children.
Answer: provide a quarter, nothing else.
I know the situation is hyperthetical but we don't give a flying fig about the young married airman/airwoman. It smacks of double standards.
Answer: provide a quarter, nothing else.
I know the situation is hyperthetical but we don't give a flying fig about the young married airman/airwoman. It smacks of double standards.
Its a good point Steve and it does smack of double standards.
I never agreed with the no alcohol rule in blocks either, no one inspected my quarter for alcohol when I first married.
Would have loved to have seen the Mrs face if the SWO and his gang came in after tea and demanded a bull-night on the lounge
I never agreed with the no alcohol rule in blocks either, no one inspected my quarter for alcohol when I first married.
Would have loved to have seen the Mrs face if the SWO and his gang came in after tea and demanded a bull-night on the lounge
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The Food Chain!
If you are in the "food chain" as a Mess Member and have any choice in whether to move to PAYD then say no! The company may not offer more expensive bar prices initially, they will creep up over the coming months! The choice of food at the counter will start off looking like a good selection until the mess members decide that eating is better and cheaper elsewhere, and then the food choice and standard will decline! Any priveliges that you think you had as a mess member, like getting the mess to cater a private function for you at a "brilliant" price and a bottle of scotch will go out of the window - expect to pay high street prices if you can afford to use the Mess's Catering Company!
The whole affair is yet another degradation of the priveliges and standards that we used to enjoy living in an Officers' Mess or a Wardroom.
Another one of the reasons that I have chosen to PVR from the RN after 27 years!
The whole affair is yet another degradation of the priveliges and standards that we used to enjoy living in an Officers' Mess or a Wardroom.
Another one of the reasons that I have chosen to PVR from the RN after 27 years!
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Pay As You Starve!
As A brand new member of your site, and certainly not a 'flyer'... 30 years in the RM taught me to keep as far away from you guys as possible. I beg your indulgence! All of my adult life I have admired the RAF for the way the 'other ranks' have controlled their service, after all, where else could a mere aircraftsman, or corporal, get out of bed, fuel and ammo a war machine... pat his officer on the head, watch him go off to war, and then stroll back to the canteen and enjoy a leisurely breakfast, then after his second cup of char wonder if he had anything to do in the later forenoon... Now that has got to be the only way to fight a war.
Sadly the politicians seem to have cottoned on to your methods, they seem to be introducing a new system... PAYD, or as I hear you guys calling it..
Save as You Starve.
I have read all the previous threads, and can stick my tongue as far in my cheek as any of you, but this new system will have very serious results:
I know you boys in light blue can look after yourselves, but this system seems set to take over every military establishment in UK. My concern is how it will affect my 'Alma Mater', 'The Commando Training Centre Royal Marines'. That establishment has, for the last 40 years been very well served by a family (father and son, father having served through to pension)with an after hours access to calories (not to mention advice). It's called "Dutchy's".... Unfortunately they are not part of the conglomerate that is destined to take over the feeding of our forces..
But... If what I read on this website is replicated at CTC, how will a young marine recruit, who probably doesn't stop working until.. Oh Crack Sparrow.. get enough calories to be able to 'turn to' fully booted and spurred the next morning (which as I recall, comes all too soon.)
I don't think todays politicians even care, let alone know...
I would ask all readers of this website to take a look at www.savedutchy.co.uk
After all, whose country is it!!!
Regards,
Dave Barrett
[email protected]
Sadly the politicians seem to have cottoned on to your methods, they seem to be introducing a new system... PAYD, or as I hear you guys calling it..
Save as You Starve.
I have read all the previous threads, and can stick my tongue as far in my cheek as any of you, but this new system will have very serious results:
I know you boys in light blue can look after yourselves, but this system seems set to take over every military establishment in UK. My concern is how it will affect my 'Alma Mater', 'The Commando Training Centre Royal Marines'. That establishment has, for the last 40 years been very well served by a family (father and son, father having served through to pension)with an after hours access to calories (not to mention advice). It's called "Dutchy's".... Unfortunately they are not part of the conglomerate that is destined to take over the feeding of our forces..
But... If what I read on this website is replicated at CTC, how will a young marine recruit, who probably doesn't stop working until.. Oh Crack Sparrow.. get enough calories to be able to 'turn to' fully booted and spurred the next morning (which as I recall, comes all too soon.)
I don't think todays politicians even care, let alone know...
I would ask all readers of this website to take a look at www.savedutchy.co.uk
After all, whose country is it!!!
Regards,
Dave Barrett
[email protected]
SAVE AS YOU STARVE
Understand that the SAYS trial at a secret Bucks base has been delayed yet further, now some 18 months late (but stand to be corrected). The 4 major food retailing companies are starting to realise that there is no profit in this. To make a profit you have to put prices up, or reduce quantity and/ or quality. If you do either of these people will vote with their feet and buy elsewhere be it local pub, Tesco/Spar/NAAFI or local kebab van. Add to that the cost of updating the infrastructure and it will take a significant time before any profit is returned.
The solution must be to stop the subsidies from food charges that go to other areas and continue with the system we have. Unfortunate for the areas where food is currently "free" but does mean that all should get what they pay for. It still wont stop the moaning of a "I pay for 21 meals but only ever eat 3" - that's the system like it, eat more or move out.
Incidentally I understand the companies bidding now want to take over the running of all Mess bars (if not all bars) on station - some profit to be had here. The scam, sorry, scheme would see all profit from all bars being split 4 ways: 1 to the O's Mess, 1 to the contractor, 1 to the Sgt's Mess, 1 to the contractor and 1 to the Airmen's Mess regardless of which one made the most/least profit. Now watch bar prices (and the cost of all social functions) go up if YOU allow this to happen.
The solution must be to stop the subsidies from food charges that go to other areas and continue with the system we have. Unfortunate for the areas where food is currently "free" but does mean that all should get what they pay for. It still wont stop the moaning of a "I pay for 21 meals but only ever eat 3" - that's the system like it, eat more or move out.
Incidentally I understand the companies bidding now want to take over the running of all Mess bars (if not all bars) on station - some profit to be had here. The scam, sorry, scheme would see all profit from all bars being split 4 ways: 1 to the O's Mess, 1 to the contractor, 1 to the Sgt's Mess, 1 to the contractor and 1 to the Airmen's Mess regardless of which one made the most/least profit. Now watch bar prices (and the cost of all social functions) go up if YOU allow this to happen.
" The scam, sorry, scheme would see all profit from all bars being split 4 ways: 1 to the O's Mess, 1 to the contractor, 1 to the Sgt's Mess, 1 to the contractor and 1 to the Airmen's Mess regardless of which one made the most/least profit." 
Undoubtedly true! "Let's split it 4 ways. Right, that bit is mine, now then 1/4 each of what's left to the OM, SNCOs & WO's mess, the Airmen's Mess...oh, and me of course!"
When I existed (I say 'existed' - 'twas hardly 'living'!) in the OM for the first few months when I arrived at the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome many years ago, the only thing which grated was being charged 3 days' extra messing if I ate breakfast one day, lunch the next and dinner on the third but only for 1 day if I ate all 3 meals on the same day. Never did quite understand that.
My final dealings with the OM was being charged some token amount for breakfast after my final Dining-Out. Had to b£oody well pay for that as well........
Undoubtedly true! "Let's split it 4 ways. Right, that bit is mine, now then 1/4 each of what's left to the OM, SNCOs & WO's mess, the Airmen's Mess...oh, and me of course!"
When I existed (I say 'existed' - 'twas hardly 'living'!) in the OM for the first few months when I arrived at the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome many years ago, the only thing which grated was being charged 3 days' extra messing if I ate breakfast one day, lunch the next and dinner on the third but only for 1 day if I ate all 3 meals on the same day. Never did quite understand that.
My final dealings with the OM was being charged some token amount for breakfast after my final Dining-Out. Had to b£oody well pay for that as well........
Lucky you BEags.
On one dining out (carefully organised for after I had left the station - somewhere to the North East of East Anglia) I was presented with the bill for Breakfast, the previous night's Dinner AND the overnight accomodation - at non entitled rates of course!
For the one when I finally left HM employ at least all I got was the bill for the dinner 'cos "It was a DHFS dinner and not an RAF one!" But then again I was lucky enough to listen to a lordship give us his 45min speech he was presumably giving to the Defence Committee later on the state of the training system - sorry, I mean I listened to the first 5 mins then joined the rest of the comatose members of the mess. Equally
On one dining out (carefully organised for after I had left the station - somewhere to the North East of East Anglia) I was presented with the bill for Breakfast, the previous night's Dinner AND the overnight accomodation - at non entitled rates of course!
For the one when I finally left HM employ at least all I got was the bill for the dinner 'cos "It was a DHFS dinner and not an RAF one!" But then again I was lucky enough to listen to a lordship give us his 45min speech he was presumably giving to the Defence Committee later on the state of the training system - sorry, I mean I listened to the first 5 mins then joined the rest of the comatose members of the mess. Equally
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PAYD killed the mess at Culdrose.
Livers in dipped out - they now all cook in their room and the ironing rooms. they now stink as nobody will wash up. corridors ming too.
Food standard is APPALLING. the so called core-menu (what livers in are entitled to at standard food charge) is cr*p. tasty options are presented at about 3 times the cost of the core menu.
food is now cooked in small batches so there are no healthy vegtables cooked, just small fried things.
it is really noticeable in the social aspect, people no longer sit down and have en evening meal, in the old system you would take smaller portions and 'do the card', whilst troughing a bottle of seahawk plonk. gone now.
If you live in the mess and eat your meals in the mess (missing breakfast and weekend meals) - you will certainly pay more under PAYD. The ARAMARK staff tell me that the prices are still cheap when compared to a pub meal - true. Can you imagine the cost of having to eat every meal in a pub?
PAYD marks the beginning if the end of the services obligation to their men. You could always count on being clothed, housed and fed no matter what.
During my last visit to Culdrose i was staying as duty, after checking the raft of rules over breakfast to see what i could have i selected some tea, 2 pieces of toast and a bowl of cornflakes (choice was this or a cooked break - 5 pieces, but not both). after finishing i went to give my chit to the lady, she totalled it on the computer and said i owed 14 p
- What for? I asked
marmalade sir.
-Why?
marmalade is not a core menu option sir.
Nuff said
Livers in dipped out - they now all cook in their room and the ironing rooms. they now stink as nobody will wash up. corridors ming too.
Food standard is APPALLING. the so called core-menu (what livers in are entitled to at standard food charge) is cr*p. tasty options are presented at about 3 times the cost of the core menu.
food is now cooked in small batches so there are no healthy vegtables cooked, just small fried things.
it is really noticeable in the social aspect, people no longer sit down and have en evening meal, in the old system you would take smaller portions and 'do the card', whilst troughing a bottle of seahawk plonk. gone now.
If you live in the mess and eat your meals in the mess (missing breakfast and weekend meals) - you will certainly pay more under PAYD. The ARAMARK staff tell me that the prices are still cheap when compared to a pub meal - true. Can you imagine the cost of having to eat every meal in a pub?
PAYD marks the beginning if the end of the services obligation to their men. You could always count on being clothed, housed and fed no matter what.
During my last visit to Culdrose i was staying as duty, after checking the raft of rules over breakfast to see what i could have i selected some tea, 2 pieces of toast and a bowl of cornflakes (choice was this or a cooked break - 5 pieces, but not both). after finishing i went to give my chit to the lady, she totalled it on the computer and said i owed 14 p
- What for? I asked
marmalade sir.
-Why?
marmalade is not a core menu option sir.
Nuff said
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Does anyone know if the '3 into 1' system is officially approved yet? Can't help but think that if the contractor is taking all of the profits from the bar and gaming machines etc that mess functions will become so much more expensive, as there wont be cash in the ents fund.
And who is going to set the GPP of the bar? Who is to say prices wont double?
The end is nigh folks.... just you wait!
BK
And who is going to set the GPP of the bar? Who is to say prices wont double?
The end is nigh folks.... just you wait!
BK
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Just out of interest, are these "Trials" being forced upon the livers-in, or do they require a vote to be passed at an EGM etc? Cant imagine many Officers messes at least allowing some Civvie company to pilfer our bar takings and rauciously increase prices? And if we do go to these catering systems, I take it an INDEPENDENT body will be responsible for dealing with complaints, monitoring standards and setting price caps that we will all be aware of before this major project gets fully underway and legislated?
Because if not, I sure as hell wont be voting for PAYD in my mess! And I garantee I will be voting with my feet if they try and charge for individual plastic portions of sauce and spreads!
MBGA
Because if not, I sure as hell wont be voting for PAYD in my mess! And I garantee I will be voting with my feet if they try and charge for individual plastic portions of sauce and spreads!
MBGA