Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Middle East
Reload this Page >

Emirates...is this for real!!???

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

Emirates...is this for real!!???

Old 5th Feb 2022, 04:19
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: NDB
Age: 51
Posts: 152
I don’t want to get technical but there’s a couple of errors that you could drive a truck through on that video above that stands out;
1/ Flight directors initially command 8 degrees nose up through the take off roll and command a pitch angle based on speed after rotate. E.g V2-V2+15. The flight directors are independent of MCP setting and they do not sit at zero during initial take off as alluded to.
2/ The Flight director pitch angle wouldn’t/ should not changed after take off until VNAV automatically engages at 400ft if armed or another mode was manually selected prior to this point.

I think there might have been a bit more that went on other than what this very basic video has concluded, Be fair to the crew and let the investigation run its course.
OnceBitten is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2022, 07:04
  #102 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Formerly resident of Knoteatingham
Posts: 880
Originally Posted by OnceBitten View Post
I don’t want to get technical but there’s a couple of errors that you could drive a truck through on that video above that stands out;
1/ Flight directors initially command 8 degrees nose up through the take off roll and command a pitch angle based on speed after rotate. E.g V2-V2+15. The flight directors are independent of MCP setting and they do not sit at zero during initial take off as alluded to.
2/ The Flight director pitch angle wouldn’t/ should not changed after take off until VNAV automatically engages at 400ft if armed or another mode was manually selected prior to this point.

I think there might have been a bit more that went on other than what this very basic video has concluded, Be fair to the crew and let the investigation run its course.
My understanding is that if the MCP Altitude Window showed 0000 when the F/Ds were first selected ON, then the active modes would not be TOGA TOGA (as is normal) but TOGA ALT (which is obviously not normal) assuming the aircraft elevation was within the altitude capture parameter, otherwise the default mode of V/S, which would be zero or TOGA. Either way, subsequently setting 4000 feet (SID Stop Altitude) into the MCP Altitude Window (even if it was set) would not change the active mode from ALT or V/S in this case. The F/D would therefore 'Direct" a pitch attitude to maintain level flight unless or until another Pitch Mode was selected as, clearly, TOGA was not the active Pitch mode.. It does beg the question though of why oh why did the PF just not rotate to something like 12-13 deg nose up (heavy aircraft) and just FLY THE AIRPLANE?

Hopefully, lessons learned and if crew have been fired, just be thankful that they (and all their pax and people they flew over at VERY low altitude) are still alive.

Last edited by BANANASBANANAS; 5th Feb 2022 at 07:24.
BANANASBANANAS is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2022, 07:51
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Aust
Posts: 314
Originally Posted by Dropp the Pilot View Post
No matter how you slice it, the incompetence is breath-taking. Should we expect to hear more or has the EK machine succesfully buried this?

Good video, marred by the statement near the end that the crew should have returned because of the overspeed. That is non-sense.
Well a return would have been appropriate, even just for a change of underwear. Whatever happened to basic flying?
deja vu is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2022, 08:06
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: NDB
Age: 51
Posts: 152
It’s a good point you raise Bananas about maybe getting TOGA/ALT with 0000 in the MCP once airborne but the flight director still would have commanded an initial 8 degree pitch during rotation so that should have been normal at Vr and through to getting airborne. It would be an interesting one for the sim as I can’t find any reference to contradict what I posted previously except for the possibility of what you raise. Keep discovering they say!
OnceBitten is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2022, 08:35
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Formerly resident of Knoteatingham
Posts: 880
Originally Posted by OnceBitten View Post
It’s a good point you raise Bananas about maybe getting TOGA/ALT with 0000 in the MCP once airborne but the flight director still would have commanded an initial 8 degree pitch during rotation so that should have been normal at Vr and through to getting airborne. It would be an interesting one for the sim as I can’t find any reference to contradict what I posted previously except for the possibility of what you raise. Keep discovering they say!
Not sure about that. My information (as in, feedback from someone who tried just that in the sim) is that if 0000 is set in the MCP Altitude Window before the F/Ds are first selected ON and provided the actual elevation shown on the PFD baro altimeter was within the capture parameter then the F/D Flight Mode Annunciators would show TOGA/ALT when first selected ON. Subsequently setting 4000 in the MCP Altitude Window would not change anything and there would be no pitch up command shown on the F/D pitch bar at any stage prior to a Mode Change being made.
BANANASBANANAS is offline  
Old 6th Feb 2022, 14:32
  #106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Sand pit
Age: 52
Posts: 450
At QR we always did a takeoff review just before takeoff…..TOGA TOGA LNAV VNAV ARMED…4000* feet , heading 300 flaps 5 or something like that…(I was pretty sure that was actually adopted from Emirates as we had so many managers from there
seems like that would have caught this error, so wondering if Emirates no longer practices this.
after takeoff they would have been probably 85 tons over max landing weight which complicates the decision to return also coupled with the punitive management in middle east where you know you will likely be fired for any embarrassment on company
casablanca is offline  
Old 6th Feb 2022, 17:29
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NA
Posts: 167
Emirates removed the take-off review.

Many continued to complete this internally.
awair is offline  
Old 6th Feb 2022, 21:49
  #108 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: aaa
Posts: 199
Originally Posted by BANANASBANANAS View Post
Not sure about that. My information (as in, feedback from someone who tried just that in the sim) is that if 0000 is set in the MCP Altitude Window before the F/Ds are first selected ON and provided the actual elevation shown on the PFD baro altimeter was within the capture parameter then the F/D Flight Mode Annunciators would show TOGA/ALT when first selected ON. Subsequently setting 4000 in the MCP Altitude Window would not change anything and there would be no pitch up command shown on the F/D pitch bar at any stage prior to a Mode Change being made.
This is correct

Have trIed it myself
SpamCanDriver is offline  
Old 6th Feb 2022, 22:11
  #109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 316
Originally Posted by fatbus View Post
She was an EK poster ( video) queen . What do you think has happened to her ? Hint - nothing!
Fatbus, you have to be kidding us...
Someone who pulls off a stunt like this, especially in the L seat has no place in any cockpit. She is still in service?

Sadly the #take-off-review was removed from EK procedures many moons ago. Getting in line with Boeing procedures it was called…
5star is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2022, 03:31
  #110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,098
Originally Posted by 5star View Post
Someone who pulls off a stunt like this, especially in the L seat has no place in any cockpit.
I agree 100%. No matter what any indication in the cockpit shows, if the buildings in the window get bigger, you shove up the levers and pull the yoke. Stop bar and 15degs sound about right. I guess even the proverbial monkey in the cockpit would try some evasive action.
Having been out of cockpits lately a question: Upon realisation of a unusual mode/indication, would a push of the TOGA switch resolve the problem?
glofish is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2022, 03:51
  #111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 316
Originally Posted by glofish View Post
I agree 100%. No matter what any indication in the cockpit shows, if the buildings in the window get bigger, you shove up the levers and pull the yoke. Stop bar and 15degs sound about right. I guess even the proverbial monkey in the cockpit would try some evasive action.
Having been out of cockpits lately a question: Upon realisation of a unusual mode/indication, would a push of the TOGA switch resolve the problem?
With my knowledge, pls correct if I'm wrong, as soon as 'no load on wheels' ie after liftoff, and you press any Toga switch, toga logic will engage in Toga Toga and lnav and vnav will be removed. Now, if 0 still stands in the ALT window, i believe it will start an unrestricted climb. Pls correct if I'm wrong.
5star is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2022, 04:04
  #112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,098
That's what i suspect. Anyway, an unrestricted climb is better than kissing concrete ....
glofish is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2022, 04:41
  #113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Hk
Posts: 85
Originally Posted by glofish View Post
That's what i suspect. Anyway, an unrestricted climb is better than kissing concrete ....
Been a while since my 777 days, but flaps out of up or GS capture are the arming conditions for TOGA if I recall. So, yes, TOGA would’ve been available.
Dingleberry Handpump is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2022, 08:13
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Just Around The Corner
Posts: 1,391
I can understand the mistake or some glitch with the MCP but , flying straight and level for miles at few feet from ground with no action with four pilots in the cockpit , that scares me.
Nick 1 is offline  
Old 22nd Feb 2022, 05:38
  #115 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: lagos
Posts: 875
What is nationality of female commandante ?
pfvspnf is offline  
Old 22nd Feb 2022, 07:41
  #116 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Beach
Posts: 444
Misogyny and racism is only 6 words ,,,well done pfvspng, quite a feat
145qrh is offline  
Old 22nd Feb 2022, 08:04
  #117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 316
pfvpnf. Should be published in the FAA/GCAA final report.

From the horses mouth…
Is it true that all crew were silently removed from payroll? Just connecting some dots after reading an article in GN which reported ‘someone also tampered with the cvr’….
Cannot believe anyone would be so naive in the flightdeck to think one could get away with this kind of stunt…

5star is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2022, 03:11
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: uae
Posts: 2,778
Scared people do strange things , scared EK pilots do some very strange things !
fatbus is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2022, 03:54
  #119 (permalink)  
short flights long nights
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 3,607
Originally Posted by 5star View Post
pfvpnf. Should be published in the FAA/GCAA final report.

From the horses mouth…
Is it true that all crew were silently removed from payroll? Just connecting some dots after reading an article in GN which reported ‘someone also tampered with the cvr’….
Cannot believe anyone would be so naive in the flightdeck to think one could get away with this kind of stunt…
Actually the article in the GN says the CVR was overwritten. That would be correct, the aircraft had flown to Washington and back to Dubai. Any conversation that happened on take off at Dubai would certainly have been overwritten. Nobody tampered with the CVR.
SOPS is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2022, 06:15
  #120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 127
Originally Posted by fatbus View Post
Scared people do strange things , scared EK pilots do some very strange things !
They have cause to be scared. Chap who made the video highlighting the MCP trap got a final written warning. I don’t think that’s indicative of a healthy safety culture.
Oldaircrew is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.