EK: Enough is Enough
I was recently contacted by EK for a management position. Was I interested, they asked. Not really would have been the honest answer, but I told them 'sure, what are you offering'. From these pages I have an idea what a skipper makes at EK, and whilst I certainly wouldn't compare a cushy paper-pusher 9-5 job wiht that of an EK skipper, at least it would give me an idea how far I could push it.
Their offer came back at roughly 65% the salary of a skipper, annual trip home in cattle class, no provident (pension) fund and a smaller housing allowance. I countered that with a demand for 1.5 x the salary of a skipper, equal housing allowance, 1. class travel and a pension scheme.
Didn't get the job, fancy that!
Their offer came back at roughly 65% the salary of a skipper, annual trip home in cattle class, no provident (pension) fund and a smaller housing allowance. I countered that with a demand for 1.5 x the salary of a skipper, equal housing allowance, 1. class travel and a pension scheme.
Didn't get the job, fancy that!
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Gents listen to the "old hands" who have been here +10yrs, they can give you an accurate assessment of the way things work here
MM and his trainers have done an excellent job in demonstrating to the co that given the intake of experience....rj...tp...cadet....they can and will fill the seats
so don't expect big raises and benefits, or any return to a reasonable roster
MM and his trainers have done an excellent job in demonstrating to the co that given the intake of experience....rj...tp...cadet....they can and will fill the seats
so don't expect big raises and benefits, or any return to a reasonable roster
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As the thread starter I would like to steer the discussion again towards... is this downward trend reversible? I am deeply pessimistic about it these days but this is what I think should be fixed:
- EK needs to start to respect the contract of employment. Denying opt-out allowance and not granting 42 days of leave to each pilot each year are blatant contractual breaches that only make the company look like an unreliable employer who will back stab you the moment they have a chance.
- EK needs to start respecting their flight and cabin crew. 24/7 essential employee services, for example. Most employees are shift workers, doesn't make sense having HR services working on reduced hours 5 days a week. Respect means to value employees (minimum) days off for bureaucratic stuff such as visa renewals, medicals, distance learning etc. All those should be rostered accordingly. Like in any decent outfit.
- EK needs to start valuing their people. The loss of experience in both flightdeck and cabin this days is an irreparable mistake. This airline used to have some of the most proficient and experienced crew in the industry. Recruiting new joiners at better conditions than current equally experienced employees is an insult.
- EK needs to listen. I had hope listening to Mueller's interviews when he was talking about the importance of listening to every single employee in the organization. This remains to be seen. Nobody has asked me my opinion and I'm too scared to share it unless behind anonymity. I have shared my concerns in previous forums (which seem to have dissappear now) but answers were always "it is above our pay grade", "this comes from above".
- EK needs a change of culture. And that's probably the hardest part. At the moment is run like a mediocre organization from the 1970s in terms of organizational culture.
I'm not saying is gonna happen, but the recipe is there in front of their eyes. Seems like the real problem is that whilst being aware of it, they just don't wanna do it.
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Qatar does it. However, it is hard to imagine anyone signing as a cadet who can potentially be on the line at age 20, looking at 15 years to upgrade due to the command age restrictions. Maybe the would need to implement a 14 year bond???
As the thread starter I would like to steer the discussion again towards... is this downward trend reversible? I am deeply pessimistic about it these days but this is what I think should be fixed:
- EK needs to start to respect the contract of employment. Denying opt-out allowance and not granting 42 days of leave to each pilot each year are blatant contractual breaches that only make the company look like an unreliable employer who will back stab you the moment they have a chance.
- EK needs to start respecting their flight and cabin crew. 24/7 essential employee services, for example. Most employees are shift workers, doesn't make sense having HR services working on reduced hours 5 days a week. Respect means to value employees (minimum) days off for bureaucratic stuff such as visa renewals, medicals, distance learning etc. All those should be rostered accordingly. Like in any decent outfit.
- EK needs to start valuing their people. The loss of experience in both flightdeck and cabin this days is an irreparable mistake. This airline used to have some of the most proficient and experienced crew in the industry. Recruiting new joiners at better conditions than current equally experienced employees is an insult.
- EK needs to listen. I had hope listening to Mueller's interviews when he was talking about the importance of listening to every single employee in the organization. This remains to be seen. Nobody has asked me my opinion and I'm too scared to share it unless behind anonymity. I have shared my concerns in previous forums (which seem to have dissappear now) but answers were always "it is above our pay grade", "this comes from above".
- EK needs a change of culture. And that's probably the hardest part. At the moment is run like a mediocre organization from the 1970s in terms of organizational culture.
I'm not saying is gonna happen, but the recipe is there in front of their eyes. Seems like the real problem is that whilst being aware of it, they just don't wanna do it.
As the thread starter I would like to steer the discussion again towards... is this downward trend reversible? I am deeply pessimistic about it these days but this is what I think should be fixed:
- EK needs to start to respect the contract of employment. Denying opt-out allowance and not granting 42 days of leave to each pilot each year are blatant contractual breaches that only make the company look like an unreliable employer who will back stab you the moment they have a chance.
- EK needs to start respecting their flight and cabin crew. 24/7 essential employee services, for example. Most employees are shift workers, doesn't make sense having HR services working on reduced hours 5 days a week. Respect means to value employees (minimum) days off for bureaucratic stuff such as visa renewals, medicals, distance learning etc. All those should be rostered accordingly. Like in any decent outfit.
- EK needs to start valuing their people. The loss of experience in both flightdeck and cabin this days is an irreparable mistake. This airline used to have some of the most proficient and experienced crew in the industry. Recruiting new joiners at better conditions than current equally experienced employees is an insult.
- EK needs to listen. I had hope listening to Mueller's interviews when he was talking about the importance of listening to every single employee in the organization. This remains to be seen. Nobody has asked me my opinion and I'm too scared to share it unless behind anonymity. I have shared my concerns in previous forums (which seem to have dissappear now) but answers were always "it is above our pay grade", "this comes from above".
- EK needs a change of culture. And that's probably the hardest part. At the moment is run like a mediocre organization from the 1970s in terms of organizational culture.
I'm not saying is gonna happen, but the recipe is there in front of their eyes. Seems like the real problem is that whilst being aware of it, they just don't wanna do it.
The most telling part of his reply though was where he stated that he didn't and couldn't get involved with the day to day running of the airline but would run my concerns by the appropriate VPs - along with the concerns of many others from flight ops who had written to him or even had a one on one meeting with him.
What this leads me to believe is that CM is capable of turning us around but is probably going to be denied the opportunity. I find this extremely worrying for the short - medium term for both EK and its employees.
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Gentlemen
EK is dug in so deep in their own self imposed mess and hyped myths of greatness, that even though each and every d!ckhe@d on the ninth floor knows exactly what is wrong and what should be done, not one of them can and is willing to do anything. It has been supported too long by all these individuals, that it would mean admittance of failure, equivalent to instant dismissal and being escorted out of the cosy office just short of being tared and feathered.
They have to continue to play the disgusting game until some big shot gets scarified and all the others can sigh in relief and declare under tears that they wanted to change the mess all along, but could not because .... blah, blah, blah ...
Who wants to be that scapegoat? Who could it be? Who would fire him and admit his collaboration to a certain degree by having him appointed?
Not one of them.
Until there is an earthquake-like change at EK i would seriously discourage anybody to pick up a job here. Because there is almost 0 chance that anything can change in the actual condition. No pay increase, no reduction in hours, not more leave, no admittance of any shortcoming. And for the near future i can't see any seismic activity, the situation is still not serious enough.
EK is dug in so deep in their own self imposed mess and hyped myths of greatness, that even though each and every d!ckhe@d on the ninth floor knows exactly what is wrong and what should be done, not one of them can and is willing to do anything. It has been supported too long by all these individuals, that it would mean admittance of failure, equivalent to instant dismissal and being escorted out of the cosy office just short of being tared and feathered.
They have to continue to play the disgusting game until some big shot gets scarified and all the others can sigh in relief and declare under tears that they wanted to change the mess all along, but could not because .... blah, blah, blah ...
Who wants to be that scapegoat? Who could it be? Who would fire him and admit his collaboration to a certain degree by having him appointed?
Not one of them.
Until there is an earthquake-like change at EK i would seriously discourage anybody to pick up a job here. Because there is almost 0 chance that anything can change in the actual condition. No pay increase, no reduction in hours, not more leave, no admittance of any shortcoming. And for the near future i can't see any seismic activity, the situation is still not serious enough.
Last edited by glofish; 11th Apr 2017 at 12:36.
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Your biggest problem is also potentially your biggest asset: your staff. Have them on-side and they are your biggest advertisement, both for the brand and recruitment. Get them off-side and you will reap the whirlwind...just like is happening now.
My fellow FD colleagues of course had also earlier said that every single one of them was actively working on an exit strategy.
A sentiment like this in your employees is almost impossible to turn around.
I left EK last year to join a reasonably well known uk airline predominantly based oop North. A couple of anecdotes: last year at relatively short notice I was offered a ticket for a rugby international. The roster was in process so it was too late to bid on - line. Bearing in mind I was told in Emirates that any direct verbal contact with rostering would lead to a written warning. So with slight trepidation I phoned my new rostering number to ask if I could have the day off and preferably the next to deal with the subsequent hangover. I was obviously ultra polite and the girl on the other end of the phone was very friendly but could not promise anything at that stage. The upshot: 5 days off! With the middle day being the rugby day and Scotland even managed to beat Argentina.
Second anecdote: recently did a sim with some prep required ( GNSS approaches). There had been an on line study pack. The instructor enquired whether I had a day rostered for self - study. Answer: no. Much consternation. Instructor contacted rostering and a day off given back. Conclusion: nowhere is perfect but I have found a company that deals in a common sense way with life issues. A very refreshing contrast to the lunacy and alice in wonderland logic I found in EK. Just sayin' folks.
Second anecdote: recently did a sim with some prep required ( GNSS approaches). There had been an on line study pack. The instructor enquired whether I had a day rostered for self - study. Answer: no. Much consternation. Instructor contacted rostering and a day off given back. Conclusion: nowhere is perfect but I have found a company that deals in a common sense way with life issues. A very refreshing contrast to the lunacy and alice in wonderland logic I found in EK. Just sayin' folks.
Last edited by olster; 11th Apr 2017 at 13:48. Reason: punctuation!
short flights long nights
Have not posted here for a long time. But I will put this in. My last airline before EK, crewing was ' open ' to talk to. They were in the same room as the room where you signed on and off. You could talk to them face to face, and we all made 'deals', you help me, I will help you. I got a big shock when I went to EK, and you could not really talk to crewing. They only want to talk to you, when they want your help, not the other way around. Also, our medicals and self study days were rostered days off. And when you took leave, your normal days off were included in the roster of leave. By that I mean, we had 3 days off a week guaranteed. So a annual leave week would be 4 days leave plus 3 days off. And we got more than 42 days a year.
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I will never forget my final cabin crew briefing before my last flight some time in the middle of last year, which happened to be a ULR. Having just told them that fact everyone broke out in applause and congratulated me on this and later during the flight almost everyone came by and said that they themselves can't wait to finally get out too. Some were held back by debt, others by having to support their families. But everyone wanted out of the slave ship, purser included.
My fellow FD colleagues of course had also earlier said that every single one of them was actively working on an exit strategy.
A sentiment like this in your employees is almost impossible to turn around.
My fellow FD colleagues of course had also earlier said that every single one of them was actively working on an exit strategy.
A sentiment like this in your employees is almost impossible to turn around.
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a6 echo ....I see...
Looking at your name, it would suggest you are on the 380....
I get your point. It s indeed like you guys work at another airline... less to bitch about and I have MANY friends on the 380 who even commute. Easy with minimum 15 days off or more...
I can tell you that on the Boeing we do the same number of ULRs as you do but we get shafted with loads of extra turns and extrra subcontinent layovers to fill up our rosters.
Some sympathy for your fellow colleagues...
caveat et emperor...thats what they are trying to do.
Hope it stays like this for you. Things might change however on very short notice...
Looking at your name, it would suggest you are on the 380....
I get your point. It s indeed like you guys work at another airline... less to bitch about and I have MANY friends on the 380 who even commute. Easy with minimum 15 days off or more...
I can tell you that on the Boeing we do the same number of ULRs as you do but we get shafted with loads of extra turns and extrra subcontinent layovers to fill up our rosters.
Some sympathy for your fellow colleagues...
caveat et emperor...thats what they are trying to do.
Hope it stays like this for you. Things might change however on very short notice...
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5 star,
It was very much the same line of BS the 777 guys were sending out 7 years ago when the 330/340 guys had 8 days off per month and 92 hours every month, 60 in the months when you had 14 days leave. As the 777 took all the better trips there remained very little decent flying and most of it at night. 92 hours on the 330 was MUCH harder than 105 on the 777. Many of the 380 guys are seeing 10 days off with 95-100 hours rosters...its bad on both fleets with the 777 slightly in the lead.
I'm not sure where A6... gets off with the statement he is making. 95 hour rosters are spent in the tube, at altitude, getting radiated, eating crap food at the wrong time of day, trying to "rest" in a confined box of the size that your wine fridge came in.
There is a lot of talk that 250 (captains so the story goes) will be rewarded with a move to the 777 (because it is just that much better) and I'm sure the "expression of interest" list has countless 1000's of names of pilots wanting to flee the 380.
All that being said, watch this space for comments regarding the changing of the guard, 737, a320, a350 and who knows...maybe even a new call sign and HQ in a different city
It was very much the same line of BS the 777 guys were sending out 7 years ago when the 330/340 guys had 8 days off per month and 92 hours every month, 60 in the months when you had 14 days leave. As the 777 took all the better trips there remained very little decent flying and most of it at night. 92 hours on the 330 was MUCH harder than 105 on the 777. Many of the 380 guys are seeing 10 days off with 95-100 hours rosters...its bad on both fleets with the 777 slightly in the lead.
I'm not sure where A6... gets off with the statement he is making. 95 hour rosters are spent in the tube, at altitude, getting radiated, eating crap food at the wrong time of day, trying to "rest" in a confined box of the size that your wine fridge came in.
There is a lot of talk that 250 (captains so the story goes) will be rewarded with a move to the 777 (because it is just that much better) and I'm sure the "expression of interest" list has countless 1000's of names of pilots wanting to flee the 380.
All that being said, watch this space for comments regarding the changing of the guard, 737, a320, a350 and who knows...maybe even a new call sign and HQ in a different city
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Outlaw. Not true....
Unless you are in training on the 380, any guy (left or right seat) on the 380 has MINUMUM 14 days or more OFF. Fact! Simply run *crew and check for yourself.
Ever since they increased the monthly hours in 2009, on the tractor I never had more than 11-12 off on the Boeing. NEVER ever.
You compare us with the 340/330 fleet a while back... Is not comparable! Now we do ULRs with the minimum 2 days off before+after and, on top of that, we do all the rest as well. Also different now is that fleet changed multiple ( I count >15) subcontinent destinations from TA to layover resulting in ever less time @home or days off. Another fact.
Unless you are in training on the 380, any guy (left or right seat) on the 380 has MINUMUM 14 days or more OFF. Fact! Simply run *crew and check for yourself.
Ever since they increased the monthly hours in 2009, on the tractor I never had more than 11-12 off on the Boeing. NEVER ever.
You compare us with the 340/330 fleet a while back... Is not comparable! Now we do ULRs with the minimum 2 days off before+after and, on top of that, we do all the rest as well. Also different now is that fleet changed multiple ( I count >15) subcontinent destinations from TA to layover resulting in ever less time @home or days off. Another fact.
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Outlaw. Not true....
Unless you are in training on the 380, any guy (left or right seat) on the 380 has MINUMUM 14 days or more OFF. Fact! Simply run *crew and check for yourself.
Ever since they increased the monthly hours in 2009, on the tractor I never had more than 11-12 off on the Boeing. NEVER ever.
You compare us with the 340/330 fleet a while back... Is not comparable! Now we do ULRs with the minimum 2 days off before+after and, on top of that, we do all the rest as well. Also different now is that fleet changed multiple ( I count >15) subcontinent destinations from TA to layover resulting in ever less time @home or days off. Another fact.
Unless you are in training on the 380, any guy (left or right seat) on the 380 has MINUMUM 14 days or more OFF. Fact! Simply run *crew and check for yourself.
Ever since they increased the monthly hours in 2009, on the tractor I never had more than 11-12 off on the Boeing. NEVER ever.
You compare us with the 340/330 fleet a while back... Is not comparable! Now we do ULRs with the minimum 2 days off before+after and, on top of that, we do all the rest as well. Also different now is that fleet changed multiple ( I count >15) subcontinent destinations from TA to layover resulting in ever less time @home or days off. Another fact.
But please don't try to tell us that it's so much harder for you now then it was for us.
Stick to that and all the sympathys are gone.