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Are all pilots @ EK so unhappy?

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

Are all pilots @ EK so unhappy?

Old 30th Aug 2014, 05:16
  #41 (permalink)  
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I'm another "happy camper" Mr. Rain...

I've been here for 11 years now, have made the best out if it and am truly happy about our decision to come her more than a decade ago. My closest friends, that joined within a few years of me, feel the same.

As said in a previous post: most people are happy. Don't make your decisions based on posts on a forum on internet!

Yes there are issues. Here as everywhere. It's how you deal with them that matters...

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Old 30th Aug 2014, 05:28
  #42 (permalink)  
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The people who are well established here are settled and are pretty happy. New joiners not so much. The terms and conditions have plummetted in the last five years.

Management is puinitive and any way of screwing the staff is considered good management practice. Engagement? That is when you buy a ring.

There are serious cost of living issues here. I don't see many FOs piping up here saying how wonderful it is. It may be better than some of their home countries but with the cost of living increases literally monthly piling up it soon mirrors the struggle that they left behind.

Whilst I respectfully agree with some of our friends writing here, please look at where you and your family will fit in.

For and FO with kids, it isn't sustainable with the extended time to command.

Think carefully. Get all the info. Visit and check out the schools and availability of places. Go and look at Meydan etc. Ask away on the forums and understand where the posters are coming from. An 11 year Captain views his (or Hers) position in a different light to a new FO.
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Old 30th Aug 2014, 06:23
  #43 (permalink)  
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12 plus years for myself and family. We're reasonably happy and only hang out with those that have a life outside EK. Sure, we bitch about a lot of things and not just EK. Why get dragged down with really negative attitudes.
Those new joiners (5-6 years)have no excuse about the erosion of T&C as that's been going on for at least that long now. As has been said before, due diligence should be done by all who think about coming here. Would we make the same decision now as we made then???? I don't dwell on what ifs. It is working for us at the moment and when it doesn't we'll change things.
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Old 30th Aug 2014, 10:12
  #44 (permalink)  
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Do not under any circumstances consider giving up a command elsewhere to come to EK as an F/O. It's just not worth it. Previous comments as regards trying to support a lifestyle as a married F/O with kids are bang on. Yes I know it's my fault for believing the hype and joining in the first place, I would just rather prevent others making the same mistake. Try up the road would be my advice.
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Old 30th Aug 2014, 11:01
  #45 (permalink)  
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They why don't you come and join jockey? After all you know better and know more than the countless of posters who have personal and firsthand knowledge of working for Emirates.
Just be ready for a 10 year wait for command.
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Old 30th Aug 2014, 11:17
  #46 (permalink)  
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Yes I think Ryanair pilots should pay for their PPCs every 6 months. After all they paid for their training.
And with that mentality, why would you ever be happy anywhere? If you are a negative person generally and seek to concentrate on the downsides to your life and seek to find fault with other people's decisions in life, then that's upto you. Please don't project your unhappiness onto me.
All I can speak about is my own experience. And it is a fact that I don't know anybody amongst my friends who is unhappy here. Yes, as I said, there are issues that niggle, but personally I try not to let them get to me.
If you want to sit on the flight deck complaining the whole day, things are going to feel pretty crappy for you and the poor unfortunate that has to listen to you. When I hear sentences that begin with "I know for a FACT" I tend to switch off. I can only go on how I am treated and that, so far, has been pretty good.
Part of the problem here is that some people come to Dubai thinking that they are going to be living a Hollywood lifestyle. Well if you are on one salary and you have a family to support, guess what, it's not going to be like that. Tennis lessons for the kids are as expensive here as they are in Berlin, Amsterdam, wherever. If you also expect to be going out to top restaurants and spending a fortune on seeing celebrity DJs etc etc then life is not going to be cheap, so do your homework, find out what you expect your life to be like. Research your questions with real pilots & visit Dubai. Make your own mind up - don't listen to me or anybody else on the internet.
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Old 30th Aug 2014, 11:46
  #47 (permalink)  
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It's a bit like a decision making model...

Understand your environment, the benefits and the game
Lower your expectations, to the floor
Find a hobby or obsession
Learn to (or) be Happy
Otherwise leave

And seriously it's not the Ryan Air guy's fault, get a grip
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Old 30th Aug 2014, 13:59
  #48 (permalink)  
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What's your national airline Jock?
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Old 30th Aug 2014, 14:12
  #49 (permalink)  
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Keep in mind that the early birds at EK lived through some quite good times. The huge erosion of the conditions is quite often simply endured and because they could buy a cheap house then, or are very senior skippers now and among the more lucky ones where wifey is still happy (because the above) and the kids could attend a good school (try that today!), we can actually believe them that they are happy.

The problem with most of us pilots, even the "happy" ones, is that we are good with actual situations, but bad with trends. That's why we had flight engineers and we have data recorders and analysers today. And that's why most pilots are not very good with finances, most of us need specialists to intelligently invest our small earnings for long term and trends ....

My tow cents:
If EK employment was stock and the shares would be coldly analysed today, according to the trend lately and the predicted trend, they would be strongly qualified as "sell" .

Why would anyone buy shares branded "sell strongly"? Right, because they are pilots.

Last edited by glofish; 30th Aug 2014 at 15:13. Reason: clarification
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Old 30th Aug 2014, 14:29
  #50 (permalink)  
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Jock. Please do tell us your airline. I haven't seen many FOs with kids saying they have a luxury lifestyle here......
You have visited. Many posters LIVE here and have done so for many years.
You are entitled to your opinions but perhaps some of our readers will put more weight on those comments from those who have been a here a few years and who have seen the degrading terms, the lack of a fair and reasonable labour law, the lack of unions etc. etc.
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Old 30th Aug 2014, 18:29
  #51 (permalink)  
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Anyone who knows my views here, know I am not a coolaid drinker and when I have a beef I express it...plenty the Co could do at no cost to improve things ...yet they will not.

That said, I've come across an increasing number of acrimonious FOs who are seriously bitching about the time to command...her is how the Chat goes:

FO: "those MFs told me three years to command at my interview!"

ME: "yep it sucks"

FO: "total BS"

ME: "what were the mins when you joined?"

FO: "4000 and I have 9000 at (said LCC) airline!..total BS"

ME: " then WTF were you doing flying for 5000 hours above mins while we all came here at mins and got our three year command. You snooze you lose sucker...so suck it up!"

Okay the last one is what I think...but all I actually say is " grabbingg a tea in the galley, want one"

So listen up high time FOs who sat and watched this not so secret monster grow while you heed and hummed...before coming with all your experience ...

Buy a mirror.

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Old 30th Aug 2014, 19:21
  #52 (permalink)  
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Transport Jock. Care to comment on this?

Parents worried over rising school fees
School fees increasing steadily over the years
By Noor Nazzal, Staff ReporterPublished: 21:00 August 30, 2014Gulf News
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Image Credit: Ahmed Ramzan/Gulf News Archives
Pupils return to school after the summer vacations. It will be hard for them to get back to the routine, and changing their sleeping and eating patterns after a long break.
Dubai: As fees and other school expenses increase steadily year after year, parents say it has become increasingly difficult for them to pay for their children’s education.
The Knowledge and Human Development Authority (KHDA) has confirmed that 127 private schools out of 158 private schools in Dubai are going to increase their fees in line with the KHDA’s school fee framework.
For the third consecutive year, the hike was determined by the cost index, which is calculated by a comprehensive analysis of the operating costs incurred by schools. The higher the ranking the school receives in school inspections, the more the school can raise its fees.
Meanwhile, a report by the authority found that 58 per cent of the 243,715 students attend private schools that charge more than Dh10,000 per year. With the increase of fees in the 127 private schools, this percentage is expected to increase even more.

A majority of parents interviewed by Gulf News said a big chunk of their salaries is spent on their children’s tuition fee.
Jordanian Mohammad Al Herish said he paid around Dh90,000 for the tuition of his three children.
Related Links
Soaring university fees hurt students
Feeling the pinch of rising fees
“I would have not been able to spend that kind of amount on my children’s education if I had to depend on my salary alone. I have rented out the family house in Amman to be able to pay the fees and, despite the rent money, I still need to take out a big chunk from my salary.”
However, he would very soon need to revise his choice of school, he says. “I plan on transferring them to a more affordable school in two years’ time because by then, my eldest son will be in university and I would need money to pay for his university tuition.”
A school survey conducted last year by WhichSchoolAdvisor.com found that one in five families spends more than 30 per cent of their monthly household budget on school fees. The findings, which were based on responses from 596 households across the UAE, found that most respondents said they spend between 11-15 per cent of their combined salaries on school fees.
Furthermore, another study featuring 1,072 parents, which was conducted by the same website, found that one in three parents pays their children’s school fees late and two out of 10 take personal loans to pay them.
Father of four Hassan Hamad, from Pakistan, said he is not surprised by the survey’s finding as he has taken a loan of Dh100,000 to pay for his children’s education. “I have put my children in expensive schools because I want them to receive a good quality of education. It is a huge burden to pay such an amount but I am hoping that it will all pay off when they are older.”
Hamad says he is expecting to pay off the loan in two years’ time with the profit made from his interior design company.
In addition to school fees, Pakistani father of two Ameer Rehman said small additional fees here and there can add to the load. “There are registration fees, extracurricular activity fees and cost of stationery, uniforms and books that parents also need to take into account when planning their budget for their child’s education. I paid around Dh20,000 for both my children’s fees, but now it seems that I need another Dh10,000 to cover the rest of the costs.”
Although many parents like Hamad believe that schools offering higher fees offer better quality of education, inspections results show that this is not the case.
If you take the Gems World Academy — whose fees range from Dh56,831 to Dh98,645 as an example — it has received the same ‘good’ rating as Al Diyafah High School, which charges Dh9,842 to Dh20,752, an amount that is significantly lower.
The KHDA also agrees that higher fees do not necessarily mean better education as it has previously stated that many schools that got ‘good’ rankings charge between Dh10,000-Dh15,000 a year.
Gulf News found that fees of private schools in the UAE range roughly from Dh5,000 to Dh100,000.
Kings School Nad Al Sheba and Kings School Al Barsha are among the schools that charge higher fees. Its foundation stage one costs Dh50,200 and it will soon charge Dh100,300-Dh103,200 for year 12 and 13, respectively, in the coming years.
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Old 31st Aug 2014, 09:22
  #53 (permalink)  
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You are not going to send your kids to one of the Indian schools are you Transport?
If not count on going into your pocket big time to send your kids to a quality school. I have to spend 2 months of my own money to educate my kids and I am a captain. Then you ask why can't you live in Dubai on the wages you make.
You seem wide eyed and bushy tailed but the salary here doesn't go very far. Ask around and be open minded. Don't just listen to what you want to hear to convince yourself Emirates is a good deal. Even if you come from a 3rd world country and work for a crap airline Emirates won't be much better for you.
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Old 31st Aug 2014, 09:42
  #54 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Alconguin Crusader View Post
... Even if you come from a 3rd world country and work for a crap airline Emirates won't be much better for you.
Of course that's because Dubai is still a 3rd world country. Shiny new buildings and flash cars don't change what it is at its core.
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 00:16
  #55 (permalink)  
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A few things to consider also-
Where you live now, 95% chance your wife works, or is able to for a decent wage if she has to tomorrow.
You have a family support network where the kids are easily taken care of when you/ missus is working.
School costs-, yes, there is a subsidy here, but only from a certain age at certain schools onwards, so when you don't qualify, (which no one does), you're going to be coughing up a lot.
Repeat from above posts, in the interview, "You'll be upgrading in 3 years, for sure (4 years later, no sign of it), and "DEC's!!!! No way. Trust us!!"

So 4 years later, here I am, still paying through the nose for unsupported 3rd child education, wife working, and the saddest part, for me,
I have a second job.
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 00:57
  #56 (permalink)  
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Some people do not do proper investigations etc before they make the move. My wife and family are however very keen on moving to Dubai. One of the main reasons why my wife is keen is for the kids education and long term future.
transport jock

You can investigate as much as you wish based on what has and is happening in EK and Dubai as a whole. However, what many of us are asking you to consider is what will happen in the years ahead.

Remember these two important facts.

• F/Os joining now will be in the RHS for considerably longer than the past.

• EK have absolutely no desire to increase salaries to match inflation in Dubai. Supply and demand dictates any future salary increase.

Finally ask yourself this question whilst taking the above into account.

'Can I provide the quality of life that I wish to give my family in the years ahead?'

The days of being able to budget with a degree of certainty as an F/O, for three years before the command came are well and truly over. You could be spending two to three times that in the RHS. Can you justify the move for being on a F/O's salary 6-9 years from now?
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 04:24
  #57 (permalink)  
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Cost of living is one issue but being able to enjoy your job depends 100% on your fleet and tolerance for night flying. The paradox for me us that I'm relatively happy with dubai. Lots of friends and hobbies etc. However, the job is seriously lacking. I've been seriously looking for a better job and there are a lot out there that pay better and provide a better lifestyle. Then I realize that I'll be moving to the 380 soon and that's like getting a new job without having to move.

Whatever you do, do not take a job on the 340/340 fleet now. It is a dying fleet and every hour you spend is wasted toward command. In addition, every hour you spend will be either at night, in Africa, or in a war zone. I'm not joking about the last part.

I know this place must look like paradise compared to (insert LLC), but the long line of you guys waiting to be abused has seriously hindered our salary and benefits progression. They see an unlimited resource of pilots and feel no need to change anything to keep or attract people. If you are offended by that, then you are probably part of the problem.

Anyway, back to talking about schools, food, blah, blah.....
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 07:13
  #58 (permalink)  
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I've said this before and the post was deleted due to obviously pointing out some mute points. To those thinking of joining EK please bear in mind the kind of people who post info here. At most they represent about 2% of the 3500 pilots and as seen above they have hidden agendas. They are quite happy to speak as if representing a majority or possessing some kind of mandate to speak on behalf of everybody. The days of PPRuNe being a useful tool for job research are very long gone. Here you only find those who are happy to use others as a tool to increase their own benefits. Don't allow yourself to be used in order to further someone else's career. Do the research elsewhere and find answers to your own questions from people you know and trust. I'm not saying its good or bad at EK but the other 98% might be silent for a reason!
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 07:14
  #59 (permalink)  
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The title of this thread is a bit incorrect. It's not that most pilots are "unhappy", IMHO, most are dissatisfied. There is a difference. As Moose said, it is a paradox. Life outside of work, many are doing ok. Life within the confines of work, many live in a quiet desperation.
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 08:24
  #60 (permalink)  
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If your percentage of the "silent mass" is correct, you might however not be correct about the reasons they shut up!!

It is hard to get a representative and therefore accurate number on what we are discussing here. The indicator i take are the CRM days. A whole day with all the different members of a fleet and finally the complete mix during the wash-up seems to be the most accurate random representation of around 50 pilots you can get on one day.

Judging by that you will get a very bleak picture of the mood in our group. When the guys and gals from fleet, training and HR showed up and asked for questions, they were met with an embarrassing silence that said it all!
After 2 minutes we were all heading to our Volvos ......

At least lately i have as much a hard time to see and hear a satisfied colleague as i have to find anything in my roster i was wishing for. Especially the more than 3 days off in a row. And that makes me a very unhappy bugger.
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