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Be careful when fishing. This one has a big bite.

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

Be careful when fishing. This one has a big bite.

Old 22nd Jul 2012, 22:23
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 1,006
LR3,

Point taken, but we are getting lost in semantics ...meaning we were front and center with our allies on DDay and remain in Europe to this day.

This thread was a reasonably clean fight between the Yanks & the Ozzies as a result of another silly post by Ex380 but...

...Mr Machs "friendly fire" post was below the belt...disgraceful.

Over and out from me.

f.
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Old 22nd Jul 2012, 22:47
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nanaimo
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Us yanks stand for freedom and liberty in 'Nam, Korea and the sandpit. We have sacrifice countless lives in our mission. Of course there were collateral damage and this was acceptable in the big scheme of things.

After the USS Cole incident, one cannot be not too careful. There is a price to pay in the pursuit of freedom and liberty. All this hoo ha about this incident is shitty noise by mischievious anals taking pot shots when they feel they can. 'Nuff said.
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Old 22nd Jul 2012, 23:07
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: India
Posts: 112
Looks like this incident is gonna bring about some mighty big fireworks in this ME forum. Let me lighten this up in response to totem's post wrt to the fight for LIBERTY in Vietnam.


Us yanks stand for freedom and liberty in 'Nam, Korea and the sandpit. We have sacrifice countless lives in our mission.


This is an excerpt from a post by a young Chinese pilot in an earlier PPRuNe thread somewhere else:

" Ha ha ha...that reminds me of my uncle's story about an American phantom jockey who knocked up a Vietnamese girl during the 60's and told the crying girl " in 9 months' time you will give birth to a lovely baby girl...name her LIBERTY in memory of this wonderful night. God bless America! The poor girl retorted in her halting English " in a few weeks you you you willll willll will have sprouted some some some home home home grown cauliflowers on your frrrront frrront front inch...call it Vietnam Rose. Viva le Vietnam and Uncle Ho! "

Last edited by Akali Dal; 22nd Jul 2012 at 23:11.
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Old 23rd Jul 2012, 00:31
  #84 (permalink)  
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,057
Dubai police: US navy ship did not warn Indian fishermen

DUBAI: Dubai’s police chief has rejected US claims that a navy ship warned Indian fishermen to move away from it before firing and killing one of them after they failed to heed the order, media reported on Thursday.
The fisherman died and three others were wounded on Monday when the ship opened fire on their vessel near the port of Jebel Ali off Dubai in the tense waters of the southern Gulf.
The “Indian fishermen were not warned to move away by the US Navy,” General Dahi Khalfan said, according to Khaleej Times daily.
“The crew … told the Dubai police that they did not move towards the ship and instead attempted to avoid it.”
“According to our findings and testimonies of the injured, I believe that they told the truth,” the daily quoted Khalfan as saying.


Baseless assumption.
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Old 23rd Jul 2012, 01:42
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
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muslims actually believe it is not a sin to lie to non-muslims...
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Old 23rd Jul 2012, 03:50
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: australia
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...[QUOTE]eight RAAF F-51s ...strafed and destroyed a train carrying thousands of American and South Korean soldiers who were mistaken for a North Korean convoy ...resulting (in) 700-1000 casualties.......the Australian pilots had been assured by the United States ...that the area under attack was in North Korean hands [/QUOTE


Only as good as your command and control I am sure over the years everyone (Aussies, yanks, poms, canuks, ruskis, Japs,the seven dwarfs, santas little helpers, the smurfs et al) has experienced or been guilty of a blue on blue incident, well maybe except the French who would have been busy surrendering or running away (tongue in cheek), could have picked a better example though... Anyhoo.....back to shooting up fishing boats!

Cheers
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Old 23rd Jul 2012, 05:39
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
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I quote excerpts from the news article that i had posted before:

The “Indian fishermen were not warned to move away by the US Navy,” General Dahi Khalfan said, according to Khaleej Times daily.
“The crew … told the Dubai police that they did not move towards the ship and instead attempted to avoid it.”
“According to our findings and testimonies of the injured, I believe that they told the truth,” the daily quoted Khalfan as saying.


So General Khalfan's statement was based on the findings of the Dubai Police i.e. the fishermen were not warned by the US Navy ship.

Looks like some people do not want to accept the truth.

It is amazing how the Americans think that their "Here For Democracy" propaganda still works.

The reason why the US has "allies" is to use them as buffer states. So the idea is "we will get you before you move past our allies and get to us". What the Americans do is all based on their selfish interest which is then distorted and presented by their propaganda machinery as the "Struggle For Democracy." In return for protection, the so called "allies" are expected to present their a$$^s to the Americans for pleasure. WIN-WIN? /??

The "allies" are expected to mortgage their foreign policies to the US in return for protection. So the US foreign policy actually carries extra weight because of its backing by the "allies." So it is not like the Americans don't get anything in return for keeping an arm around their bitc**s. /??

Regarding WW2, British policy was to use France as a buffer state which was a partial failure. US policy was to use Britain as a buffer state which was a success. It wasn't L.O.V.E. that was guiding US policies. Just plain self-interest.

THE WORLD IS A GIANT PRISON WITH MASTERS AND BI^^HES!!!

Last edited by H2SO4; 23rd Jul 2012 at 07:57.
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Old 23rd Jul 2012, 05:52
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dusty West
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Let me get this straight.....

H2S04...

So...let see here...

You are basing your arguments on a Malaysian newspaper article which in turn quoted a statement made by the Dubai police which in turn was given by two locals and 3 Indians....and in ALL of that you have ascertained that this is the truth? This is the same police that blame the expat involved in the traffic accident because " If you had not been stopped at the red light then this local gentlemen would not have hit you from behind ", one "classic" you failed to quote was that locals can NEVER be wrong". How selective of you.

I guess it must be so, because newspapers NEVER post anything remotely untrue or biased to sensationalization to sell newspapers. I bet you watch Jerry Springer and think all Americans are like the guests! Watch much CNN?

You say that a "poor fisherman" should not be expected to know the rules of the US Military? How about the rules of the Iranian Military then...they have been around the gulf since time began and I'll venture a guess that the locals don't get within sight of them. I'll just use your logic then when I meander my aircraft into North Korean airspace...see what happens...because surely I can't be expected to know the ROE with the North Korean defenses...hell, I can't ever understand their language!

Hope you're on board!

Last edited by The Outlaw; 23rd Jul 2012 at 05:54.
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Old 23rd Jul 2012, 06:56
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: 49th parallel
Posts: 44
X-380

I have even received threatening PMs from Americans.


How do you know they were Americans?

More than likely any PM's (if any, that is) were from the 'Ozzies' telling you to shut the @@## UP. After all, who needs to be ass-ociated with such a supercilious fool...

`
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Old 24th Jul 2012, 00:51
  #90 (permalink)  
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
 
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Location: Derbyshire, England.
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H2SO4

Looks like some people do not want to accept the truth.
You gave only one side, the Dubai police and the Indian fishermen, as reported in a newspaper, how on earth can you say that you have posted the 'truth'?

The Gulf has been a dangerous place continuously since the Iraq - Iran war of the eighties.

Contractors are usually ex servicemen who will usually have a lot more relevant experience and training than your average on board sailor.
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Old 24th Jul 2012, 07:04
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: All over
Posts: 87
Just imagine what the police chief would have to say if these poor saps encountered Mr. R2D2 (or MK15 Phalanx CIWS) found on Navy warships as opposed to .50 cal found on this oiler.

"We have reports of a boat missing off Jebel Ali with 5 people aboard..."

Here's the land version of the Phalanx in Iraq:

?rel=0" frameborder="0" gesture="media" allow="encrypted-media" allowfullscreen>


50-75 rounds per second or 3000-4500 rounds per minute.

I just hope people learn that just because they may be able to get away with this kind of crap on SZR, it ain't gonna fly with a naval warship. The survivors were lucky they only got peppered with a mounted .50 cal. Had they encountered R2D2 (Phalanx CIWS), they would have gotten vaporized.

Last edited by BeCareful; 24th Jul 2012 at 07:06.
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Old 24th Jul 2012, 11:21
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Tree
Posts: 4
I'm sure that there is a run on the books "The Rules of the Road at Sea" and "25 Ways to Have Your Vessel End Up As Balsa Wood on the High Seas" in the Middle East fishing community. Can't imagine that there will be too many boats attempting to approach any grey colored ship in future.
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Old 24th Jul 2012, 15:02
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Core
Posts: 8
You are basing your arguments on a Malaysian newspaper article which in turn quoted a statement made by the Dubai police which in turn was given by two locals and 3 Indians....and in ALL of that you have ascertained that this is the truth?
Some people have got to start respecting the sovereignty of other countries. Considering that the crime took place with in the jurisdiction of Dubai Police, their chief's statement carries a lot of weight.

Now that Dubai Police has confirmed that the crew on board the US Navy ship acted in a negligent manner, some people have started maligning the police itself!!!

In case anybody has issues with Malaysian newspapers, some other media houses have also published the same statement by General Khalfan.

Shooting case being probed, says Dhahi - Khaleej Times

Gulf Times ? Qatar?s top-selling English daily newspaper - India

I guess it must be so, because newspapers NEVER post anything remotely untrue or biased to sensationalization to sell newspapers.
So after Dubai Police, newspapers are to be discredited too?

Everybody is liar except ............(?)

I bet you watch Jerry Springer and think all Americans are like the guests!
Why would i think that? It at all i had to generalize, i would say that Americans are great people.

You gave only one side, the Dubai police and the Indian fishermen, as reported in a newspaper, how on earth can you say that you have posted the 'truth'?
Yes! I did give only one side of the story. The side that was being deliberately left out! One sided stories were also being given before i posted that article. Many comments containing assumptions, false information and racial type-casting were doing the rounds before that. I just gave the other side.

We all have a small proportion of "strange ones" who don't quite get it.
Get what? That the unjust actions of some people are not to be questioned? And that if you do question these acts, you will be dubbed as a "strange one" and ridiculed?

Everybody, come say HELLO to the saviors of FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY.
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Old 25th Jul 2012, 03:41
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Somehwere on the planet
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Call it what you want, but approach any military naval ship in the gulf, be it USN or otherwise and you are going to get a reaction that will not end well for the approaching ship.

Always been tension in the gulf, as long as they have idiots that like to spout off about wiping other countries off the face of the map, then there always will be and fishing boats would be best to take that into account. Small consolation prize saying " well 7 days, the dubai police chief and H2SO4 think I had the right to navigate wherever i please, too bad i'm all full of 1/2' holes". Amazing how most days the USN and the fishing boats manage just fine to avoid each other and then they just randomly open fire without any warning whatsoever on a boat according to the Dubai Police.

If i was force protection, i'd rather err on the side of protecting my ship than explain why i got a bunch of my fellow sailors killed cause i didn't stop the fishing boat that ignored warnings and then blew a hole in the side of my ship.

Don't know what countries all you monday morning quarterback critics come from, but hell yeah if there is a country that i'd want to champion freedom and democracy then the US would be somewhere near the top of the list..and before you jump all over that, no i'm not from there, just appreciate what they do for the rest of the civilized world most of the time.

Last edited by tbaylx; 25th Jul 2012 at 03:52.
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Old 25th Jul 2012, 05:46
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Age: 72
Posts: 17
@ Kennettheking "As a 'superpower' the US should hold itself to a higher standard than this......with power comes responsibility. And, yup, if they going go around killing people at will, then we may just as well be protected by the Chinese.....same thing isn't it?"

Yup you are right. Nobody should come close to a yank vessel.


"Without providing prior notice of the exercise, officers on Saratoga woke the enlisted Sea Sparrow missile team and directed them to conduct the simulated attack. According to U.S. Navy, certain members of the missile firing team were not told that the exercise was a drill, rather than an actual event.
As the drill progressed, the missile system operator used language to indicate he was preparing to fire a live missile, but due to the absence of standard terminology, it was failed to appreciate the significance of the terms used and the requests made. Specifically, the Target Acquisition System operator issued the command "arm and tune", terminology the console operators understood to require arming of the missiles in preparation for actual firing. The officers supervising the drill did not realize that "arm and tune" signified a live firing and ignored two separate requests from the missile system operator to clarify whether the launch order was an exercise. As a result, shortly after midnight on the morning of 2 October, Saratoga fired two Sea Sparrow missiles at Muavenet. The missiles struck in the bridge, destroying it and the Combat Information Center, killing five of the ship's officers and injuring 22."

On 29 September 1994, some of the Turkish Navy sailors serving aboard the Muavenet instituted legal action against the United States government. The action encompassed two wrongful death claims and 299 personal injury claims. On 20 February 1997, the U.S. Court of Appeals affirmed a lower court ruling against them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCG_Muavenet_(DM_357)

This was the navy has been to two world wars. In all fairness there was at least one person with a clear understanding what he/she were doing which conspicuously missing at USS Vincennes (CG-49) in 1988.


Sadly no compensation has been offered.


Which USN Admiral has been quoted as saying " we had to simplifie and rewrite our manuals 3 times in a decade"

Then was it a coincidence that bold faced complex words begun to appear on comic book pages.

Last edited by wetbehindear; 25th Jul 2012 at 06:54.
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Old 25th Jul 2012, 06:04
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: usa
Posts: 122
H2,
You do realize the US is not just sailing around the gulf on their own. They are there for the countries who don't have the ability to keep the shipping routes open! Nothing will come of this because the leaders of the UAE, Bahrain, Oman, Saudi, Kuwait all have a vested interest in the US military watching over their income and standard of life. Don't get me wrong the US has vast interests too, but let's not pretend the US is just sailing around in others waters with no prior invite.. Like some other countries out there.
Wet.
You sight a couple of incidents over a decade old, but fail to mention the thousands of incidents that were handled properly. And you know there are issues like these everyday around the world that go well. When your dealing with humans things will inevitably go wrong from time to time. An operation as large as the US military will make mistakes and this may or may not be one, the investigation will determine. The difference is the US will admit and will change procedure if they find there was a mistake made. They may not publicly admit the problem, but internally procedures will be changed if possible, they don't like this kind of publicity.

Last edited by drive73; 25th Jul 2012 at 06:14.
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Old 25th Jul 2012, 06:14
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: transient
Age: 72
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@fliion "If you are in fact Australian, may your family rest a little more secure tonight knowing that American tax dollars are paying for that new 2500 man USMC base in Northern Australia as counterweight to Chinese posturing in the Pacific.

No thanks necessary...but a tipped cap...very much appreciated."



Come the climate change who will be producing grain to feed the world?

Are you ready to take your cap into your hand and approach with humility?

Last edited by wetbehindear; 25th Jul 2012 at 06:15.
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Old 25th Jul 2012, 06:56
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 196
Ex A380
I am amazed at the vitriol I have received for expressing a view point on my position. I have even received threatening PMs from Americans.
Oh come on, you aren't really amazed. It's the type of response you want. Members of the Peanut Gallery always seek some sort of recognition, even if it is vitriol.

My theory of why there's so much America-obsession laced critisism among the ranks of Ozzies, Brits, and Kiwis is that there was so much young American GI DNA deposited (and willingly accepted) into their domestic gene pools during the 1941-45 war years that now courses through their veins and they live with the frustration of not being able to just come right out and say or obtain secretly-harbored desires; to own a Colt .45 if they want to, to grab a Maccas Big Mac and eat it while driving an SUV and not care a rat's butt what the neighbours think, and to be able to look up at the moon and say to themselves "Yup, we went there..a bunch of times".

So my fellow Americans, hold a smidgen of pity for the holier-than-thou when they go into their "We are responsible citizens of the world and are a blessing for the unwashed when we are abroad, not you, you provincials" or "We know more about your country than you do" modes. Don't get mad when they lash out from the cognitive dissonance created by the American DNA in their systems because it's actually a form of attention-seeking and compensation for the self-loathing any bastard child would feel. So instead of getting mad, just remember that no matter whether at home or in whatever corner of the world they try to retreat to, Coca-Cola and the moon are there too, laughing at them for you.
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Old 25th Jul 2012, 07:34
  #99 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: All over
Posts: 87
H2, all due respect to General Khalfan, but when you say you interviewed one side only, and you believe their version without so much as taking into account that there are two sides, let alone looking into the other side... you just lost all credibility. But then again, what the hell can you expect? It was a habibi-owned boat, and they complained after being stupid that the trigger happy Yanks opened up on them with a .50 cal. Do you really expect Dubai police to EVER call locals on their bullsh*t antics especially when the other side is not local? PUHLEEZ.... can't have a habibi lose face.

And of course, US Navy is a bunch of cowboys who randomly shoot poor innocent fishermen in sovereign territorial waters of a host country. Right... yeah, that's it.

Ever served in the US military? Have a slightest clue about the rules of engagement? Have a clue how many American servicemen died due to political correctness when it comes to ROE? If not, all due respect, but go back to whining about EK/EY.
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Old 25th Jul 2012, 07:58
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Adrift upon the tides of fate
Posts: 1,839
I'd rather everyone took away something from this incident that may be relevant to THEM.

Listen out on guard when toodling around the Gulf. You never know when they might be hailing YOU
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