Why are so many EK FO's failing the upgrade interviews?
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok Tatin, so what you are saying is that regardless of how crap an upgrade candidate is, the likes of KLM/AF/ and LH will force them through a course at all costs which is un-failable? Gimme a break! That's probably the reason why AF continually crash all over the place (YYZ anyone?). Unionisation at is best! BTW, if they don't pass the OM-A quiz you mentioned, does it just get swept under the carpet? Is that any different to the interview here??????
Please oh please tell me you are kidding? NO-ONE (you or me included) has the RIGHT to pass the upgrade, only the right to have a go at it. Can you think of anyone with a decent record that has been refused the right to attend interview? Though not!
I realise English probably isn't your first language (I least I hope it's not or you are in trouble!), the SAS saying you quoted appears to have gone over your head a little! All it alludes to is saying that if you put the work in, you will find the actual task much easier....... Now please tell me you don't disagree with that as well?
Oh, and an upgrade is NOT a gift from the company, it's a basic right embedded in the contract you sign
I realise English probably isn't your first language (I least I hope it's not or you are in trouble!), the SAS saying you quoted appears to have gone over your head a little! All it alludes to is saying that if you put the work in, you will find the actual task much easier....... Now please tell me you don't disagree with that as well?
Join Date: May 2008
Location: pit
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pool,as the topic starter clearly points out''rumours are that etc etc'',and you further add to that nonsense with your post about how new F/O's are ''hearing'' ''grilling'' stories.
Well personally they, the new F/O's should all stop hearing rubbish, because when you hear things they may not necessarily be exactly as events unfolded in the first place and are often fabricated to suit the story teller.
To use the term ''Grilled'' is a bit far fetched.
Whats wrong with having a meeting and discussing an event such as those that you list?Has it occurred to you that the company might want to learn something by hearing it from the horses mouth instead of going on Prune to learn about it?
Well personally they, the new F/O's should all stop hearing rubbish, because when you hear things they may not necessarily be exactly as events unfolded in the first place and are often fabricated to suit the story teller.
To use the term ''Grilled'' is a bit far fetched.
Whats wrong with having a meeting and discussing an event such as those that you list?Has it occurred to you that the company might want to learn something by hearing it from the horses mouth instead of going on Prune to learn about it?
Touched a nerve wv2? You sound irritated.
You qualify the forementioned as 'rubbish' and at the same time say 'they may not be exactly as events unfolded'.
Either you know EXACTLY what has happened (care to enlighten us?) or you are simply on the same level as us and only assume you know better.
Has it occured to you that someone contributing was actually involved in such an incidend and therefore could recite things quite accurately? Not doing it completely though, not to reveal his identity.
Has it occured to you that another contributor could actually have been 'invited' to a so called 'meeting', just to discover that the verdict was already on the table in print? That's some 'learning' by the company.
With the intransparent communication culture around here we have to rely way more on what we hear than in a civilized environment. You can barely blame anyone for doing that, allthough it's not without risk of misinformation, I agree.
Or do you suggest just to shut up and only use what trickles down from our leaders?
I truly hope not.
It is hard to go by the 'only follow SOP/AOM' and you're safe myth.
Too many leads show in another direction. Where there's smoke, there's fire.
But I must be wrong, as the latter is not an ECAM or AOM line.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Empty quarter
Age: 44
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Original Poster,
By your logic then all the current (all fleets)highly competant and deserving skippers from the Sub continent, Africa, Fiji etc etc etc are in their position only as a token quota because its all about race. Utter utter bolox.
Harry,
Im disappointed old chap. That nasty instructor syndrome. Do you honestly believe the F/Os version of events was not edited to make him look good. Really?? how long have you been at this game?Have a word with yourself.
It has also been my experience that those who shout loudest about the upgrade process perform the worst on line flights. Not due to morale, just p1ss poor skills and attitude.
As for fuel letters. Grow a set. Make a command/airmanship decision and put what you NEED on not what you WANT. Therein lies the difference. I have never met or heard of a specific name of anyone called in for NORMAL application of the above.
By your logic then all the current (all fleets)highly competant and deserving skippers from the Sub continent, Africa, Fiji etc etc etc are in their position only as a token quota because its all about race. Utter utter bolox.
Harry,
Im disappointed old chap. That nasty instructor syndrome. Do you honestly believe the F/Os version of events was not edited to make him look good. Really?? how long have you been at this game?Have a word with yourself.
It has also been my experience that those who shout loudest about the upgrade process perform the worst on line flights. Not due to morale, just p1ss poor skills and attitude.
As for fuel letters. Grow a set. Make a command/airmanship decision and put what you NEED on not what you WANT. Therein lies the difference. I have never met or heard of a specific name of anyone called in for NORMAL application of the above.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Earth
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oblaas:
That`s so general,one can only agree with that. it's also the only thing I agree with in your post.
Condescending, comes from a superiority complex of certain Commonwealth countries. 'There's widespread fog in England, the continent is isolated'.
Thank God it's not my first language.
Ok, this requires some lateral thinking, are you up for that?
The upgrade candidate has jumped through a lot of hoops, except for basic ATPL etc., he has a history in the airline, PPC's exams, the lot. He is known by his records, just as EK has a similar (comprehensive) file about you.
The company doesn't treat him/her with disdain and distrust, but as an asset.
The company has a just (safety) culture. It's not 'my way or the highway' and there is room for criticism and openness.
If this candidate has weaknesses, it has been known for long through thorough and honest training where the trainer supports and implements self-confidence. These first officers have been captains in training whole their careers. There are NO crap candidates.
Ek could learn from that.
First world airline versus third world airline.
Shiftpattern:
and
What is an 'average upgrade'?
If you benchmark against which airline why do we have a more extensive network than any other major long haul carrier in the world? EK just recently started flying to South America, a destination the majors already flew to for years. Plus the rest of the world. Don't see why this is used as an argument to 'toughen' an upgrade.
And why is the network with other candidates necessary? Lack of notes and available study material? Lack of communicating priorities versus insignificant details?
Where does this trainer attitude 'let me see what you`ve got' come from? Instead of support and training there`s still a lot of 'grilling' mentality around.
All it alludes to is saying that if you put the work in, you will find the actual task much easier
I realise English probably isn't your first language (I least I hope it's not or you are in trouble!)
Thank God it's not my first language.
that regardless of how crap an upgrade candidate is, the likes of KLM/AF/ and LH will force them through a course at all costs which is un-failable?
The upgrade candidate has jumped through a lot of hoops, except for basic ATPL etc., he has a history in the airline, PPC's exams, the lot. He is known by his records, just as EK has a similar (comprehensive) file about you.
The company doesn't treat him/her with disdain and distrust, but as an asset.
The company has a just (safety) culture. It's not 'my way or the highway' and there is room for criticism and openness.
If this candidate has weaknesses, it has been known for long through thorough and honest training where the trainer supports and implements self-confidence. These first officers have been captains in training whole their careers. There are NO crap candidates.
Ek could learn from that.
First world airline versus third world airline.
Shiftpattern:
you network with other candidates, pull your finger out and study lots,
diversity of the EK network you can appreciate that a command here probably requires a bit more work than the 'average' upgrade.
If you benchmark against which airline why do we have a more extensive network than any other major long haul carrier in the world? EK just recently started flying to South America, a destination the majors already flew to for years. Plus the rest of the world. Don't see why this is used as an argument to 'toughen' an upgrade.
And why is the network with other candidates necessary? Lack of notes and available study material? Lack of communicating priorities versus insignificant details?
Where does this trainer attitude 'let me see what you`ve got' come from? Instead of support and training there`s still a lot of 'grilling' mentality around.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,091
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In most of the legacy carriers, (BA may be an exception), first commands are usually on the short haul fleet where the command can be consolidated with a lot of sectors and mainly within the same climatic region and with minimal time changes. Make haste slowly.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Tart (Tatin), just so that I'm clear, are you actually saying that ALL F/O's in the 'First World' airlines you mentioned are without fault and have a perfect record? Not possible my garlic breathed friend!
I'm sure that wasn't what you were alluding to, so you must therefore acknowledge that there will be a number of F/O's in those airlines who are simply not ready for/capable of transition to the LHS when their number comes up. These guys will either be delayed, or shoehorned onto a course which they would later fail in any case. Is that not what happens here?
Give me EK's pragmatic non unionised approach any day over the dinosaurs of the industry!!!
BTW I'd rather have the 'superiority complex' of a certain commonwealth nation, than an inferiority complex of one swamped in garlic and cheese!! If I had my way, I pop a couple of large outboard motors on to the UK and sail it as far away from France as possible...... Incidentally, how's the Euro doing?
I'm sure that wasn't what you were alluding to, so you must therefore acknowledge that there will be a number of F/O's in those airlines who are simply not ready for/capable of transition to the LHS when their number comes up. These guys will either be delayed, or shoehorned onto a course which they would later fail in any case. Is that not what happens here?
Give me EK's pragmatic non unionised approach any day over the dinosaurs of the industry!!!
BTW I'd rather have the 'superiority complex' of a certain commonwealth nation, than an inferiority complex of one swamped in garlic and cheese!! If I had my way, I pop a couple of large outboard motors on to the UK and sail it as far away from France as possible...... Incidentally, how's the Euro doing?
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jihad Jim
Not sure why you felt the need to have a go, I actually agree with everything you have stated.
The F/O I referred to had no reason to disrespect the new LTC. He was merely pointing out a few 'nuggets' of advice that had been passed on to him during training. Knowing the culture of fear and paranoia that pervades throughout our operation, I can well believe what he said was true. As a good operater himself, with lots of experience, he actually had nothing to prove. I just think he was somewhat disappointed that the new LTC was feeding the fire of paranoia rather than encouraging the behaviour trates that we're all encouraging F/O's (and some Captains) to adopt on this thread, mainly airmanship, good judgement and a large dose of common sense. The rest of the trainers he said, were great.
I do agree with what wet vee two is saying. There are far too many rumours out there with stories being maginifed and distorted as time goes on. I also back up what pool eludes to in that the Company culture impacts on a pilots ability to make sound decisions when there is the fear of tea and biscuits. Is it any wonder then, when you consider that most of our F/O's coming for upgrade have been here approximately 4 years or so. The last three, especially those infamous 3 months after Melbourne, have hardly helped them feel easy about making errors. With everyone watching their backs and ACR's (Arse Covering Reports) replacing ASR's, what kind of culture have they been exposed to throughout that period? The problem lies in that generally, most of this fear is now percieved. (Manchester sackings were a disgrace I know, as was the handling of the other incidents. I'm not saying, however, that I disagreed with all the other outcomes.) We have had several incidents since then in which management have taken a more pragmatic approach and nobody has been fired. It may be naive of me to say, given the national culture of where we operate and who controls us, but it's a step in the right direction and may show the future intent of our Flight Ops in dealing with issues. Only time will tell!
Captains can't afford to make decisions based on fear, especially when this fear is based on perception and rumour. They must use their better judgement to make a decision that is the most sensible at the time. At least you will be around to defend it afterwards.
And, apart from the lack of preparation that Oblaaspop correctly refers to, is perhaps a fundamental reason why guys are failing interviews.
Harry
Not sure why you felt the need to have a go, I actually agree with everything you have stated.
The F/O I referred to had no reason to disrespect the new LTC. He was merely pointing out a few 'nuggets' of advice that had been passed on to him during training. Knowing the culture of fear and paranoia that pervades throughout our operation, I can well believe what he said was true. As a good operater himself, with lots of experience, he actually had nothing to prove. I just think he was somewhat disappointed that the new LTC was feeding the fire of paranoia rather than encouraging the behaviour trates that we're all encouraging F/O's (and some Captains) to adopt on this thread, mainly airmanship, good judgement and a large dose of common sense. The rest of the trainers he said, were great.
I do agree with what wet vee two is saying. There are far too many rumours out there with stories being maginifed and distorted as time goes on. I also back up what pool eludes to in that the Company culture impacts on a pilots ability to make sound decisions when there is the fear of tea and biscuits. Is it any wonder then, when you consider that most of our F/O's coming for upgrade have been here approximately 4 years or so. The last three, especially those infamous 3 months after Melbourne, have hardly helped them feel easy about making errors. With everyone watching their backs and ACR's (Arse Covering Reports) replacing ASR's, what kind of culture have they been exposed to throughout that period? The problem lies in that generally, most of this fear is now percieved. (Manchester sackings were a disgrace I know, as was the handling of the other incidents. I'm not saying, however, that I disagreed with all the other outcomes.) We have had several incidents since then in which management have taken a more pragmatic approach and nobody has been fired. It may be naive of me to say, given the national culture of where we operate and who controls us, but it's a step in the right direction and may show the future intent of our Flight Ops in dealing with issues. Only time will tell!
Captains can't afford to make decisions based on fear, especially when this fear is based on perception and rumour. They must use their better judgement to make a decision that is the most sensible at the time. At least you will be around to defend it afterwards.
And, apart from the lack of preparation that Oblaaspop correctly refers to, is perhaps a fundamental reason why guys are failing interviews.
Harry
Last edited by harry the cod; 1st May 2011 at 13:15.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: pit
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very good post harry, fully agree.
Happy to read that your perception is showing a trend to the better. I will gladly take this into making my picture about the situation, just as I feel entitled to consider negative hear-says or here-reads.
In the end it's just an opinion, just as yours, wet vee two, and we all have to take it with a pinch of salt, I agree.
Happy to read that your perception is showing a trend to the better. I will gladly take this into making my picture about the situation, just as I feel entitled to consider negative hear-says or here-reads.
In the end it's just an opinion, just as yours, wet vee two, and we all have to take it with a pinch of salt, I agree.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: >FL310
Posts: 429
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Couple of things. The fuel letters have raised their nasty little heads again. When one gets a letter stating you are carrying more fuel on the last ten sectors than your contempories......intimidating maybe? In years and years and years of flying and several companies, NEVER have I seen such a letter to any captain. I have eyeballed two letters recently. Does that set up a little intimidation when firsts see captains making judgement calls and get one could be construed as a mild threat. OBTW, one letter was for carrying 600kgs over the contempories, on average.
Can anyone tell me why a HR representative, who has probably never sat in a cockpit, never mind a sim., can have the ability to fail a candidate in their interview.
You guys may think there is no built in prejudice towards pilots from the lands of salsa and tango, but just ask around. Not making excuses for poor performance, but if there is a perception of such.....Well how does that not contibute towards paranoia. And if you think the flying around that part of the world is easy, I dare say you haven't flown into airports with elevations from 8000ft to 12000ft, through TRWs daily, temps 40plus, lousy ATC. I have more respect for those gentlemen and ladies and what their careers have been thus far than most of the "first" world laddies that show up here.
And Pool (excellent post), the gentlemen that failed his sim because of the runway....he didn't even get airbourne before the TRx failed him. Game over. Maybe more to the story, maybe two hours into the sim and still not airbourne, but because of the atmosphere here, many believe it on face value. "Yeah, I can believe that."
One question, ask around. How many guys have you flown with who never had received a failure of any sort in their 10,000 plus hours careers before getting here? I don't see the carnage around the world from where we have received our new joiners in the last 7-8 years.
But interesting thread, nevertheless. Truely exposes the training/checking/intimidating mindset of those driving, checking and "training" around the pit. You guys are using the old pilot error investigating technique. Yep, failed (crashed); obviously an unprepared bad pilot. Some of you gentlemen really need to get your CVs up to date for some management positions. Perfect mindset, the ONLY reason for a failure is an unprepared pilot. The only reason for a crash is a lousy pilot.
And the high speed reject going to IAH? To think they kept those guys under question immediately after the incident for several hours. A first world carrier would have allowed them to go home, catch their breath and come in and "chat" when you are up to it. FACT.
Can anyone tell me why a HR representative, who has probably never sat in a cockpit, never mind a sim., can have the ability to fail a candidate in their interview.
You guys may think there is no built in prejudice towards pilots from the lands of salsa and tango, but just ask around. Not making excuses for poor performance, but if there is a perception of such.....Well how does that not contibute towards paranoia. And if you think the flying around that part of the world is easy, I dare say you haven't flown into airports with elevations from 8000ft to 12000ft, through TRWs daily, temps 40plus, lousy ATC. I have more respect for those gentlemen and ladies and what their careers have been thus far than most of the "first" world laddies that show up here.
And Pool (excellent post), the gentlemen that failed his sim because of the runway....he didn't even get airbourne before the TRx failed him. Game over. Maybe more to the story, maybe two hours into the sim and still not airbourne, but because of the atmosphere here, many believe it on face value. "Yeah, I can believe that."
One question, ask around. How many guys have you flown with who never had received a failure of any sort in their 10,000 plus hours careers before getting here? I don't see the carnage around the world from where we have received our new joiners in the last 7-8 years.
But interesting thread, nevertheless. Truely exposes the training/checking/intimidating mindset of those driving, checking and "training" around the pit. You guys are using the old pilot error investigating technique. Yep, failed (crashed); obviously an unprepared bad pilot. Some of you gentlemen really need to get your CVs up to date for some management positions. Perfect mindset, the ONLY reason for a failure is an unprepared pilot. The only reason for a crash is a lousy pilot.
And the high speed reject going to IAH? To think they kept those guys under question immediately after the incident for several hours. A first world carrier would have allowed them to go home, catch their breath and come in and "chat" when you are up to it. FACT.
Last edited by TangoUniform; 1st May 2011 at 14:16.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: leiden, holland
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting discussion in-between the unnecessary mudslinging by certain egos..
Now in my forth year as an Emirates checklist reader.. Without the mandate to call ‘STOP’ on a reject.. Start the aircrafts engines.. land the aircraft in anything resembling a ‘cross wind’.. etc. etc.
Truth is Emirates are not preparing their F/O’s for Command.
Thank God I came here with 1000hrs in the left seat with a ‘blue chip’ carrier that has an adult mind-set to operating an Airliner. Whom I can confirm prepare their F/O’s from day one.. F/O’s ‘sign the tech log’ on all their PF sectors.. Imagine that here!?
Mind you, no chance of Command in Emirates for me as p**is and bo***cks found retrospectively wanting at only 45tons instead of this apparently magical 55tons, funny I’d never had any complaints in the past!?
Now in my forth year as an Emirates checklist reader.. Without the mandate to call ‘STOP’ on a reject.. Start the aircrafts engines.. land the aircraft in anything resembling a ‘cross wind’.. etc. etc.
Truth is Emirates are not preparing their F/O’s for Command.
Thank God I came here with 1000hrs in the left seat with a ‘blue chip’ carrier that has an adult mind-set to operating an Airliner. Whom I can confirm prepare their F/O’s from day one.. F/O’s ‘sign the tech log’ on all their PF sectors.. Imagine that here!?
Mind you, no chance of Command in Emirates for me as p**is and bo***cks found retrospectively wanting at only 45tons instead of this apparently magical 55tons, funny I’d never had any complaints in the past!?
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,832
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
F/O’s ‘sign the tech log’ on all their PF sectors.. Imagine that here!
Mind you - seeing as you could possibly be Dutch I can imagine your lot 'sharing the love' and all that
I do though completely agree about the 55 tonnes nonsense! That's keeping many good guys and gals in the RHS!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lefty, I totally agree with what you say! The x-wind thing along with many other policies are what we would have called 'negative training' in a previous life. I also agree with you about the 55 tonne thing.
I don't agree with some of your other points though.... before your last airline turned 'blue', F/O's were not allowed to sign the log, the CM1 only having authority to call stop is actually an Airbus (and probably Boeing) SOP - this is the same SOP that was used in my last airline on the 'Bus and the same goes for starting the engines........ no different!
But as you well know, none of the things you mentioned are actually that important in the grand scheme of things and take 3 nanoseconds to overcome on the course. With your extensive command experience, I am sorry to hear that you feel you are just a checklist reader....... you and I both know that isn't the case
I don't agree with some of your other points though.... before your last airline turned 'blue', F/O's were not allowed to sign the log, the CM1 only having authority to call stop is actually an Airbus (and probably Boeing) SOP - this is the same SOP that was used in my last airline on the 'Bus and the same goes for starting the engines........ no different!
But as you well know, none of the things you mentioned are actually that important in the grand scheme of things and take 3 nanoseconds to overcome on the course. With your extensive command experience, I am sorry to hear that you feel you are just a checklist reader....... you and I both know that isn't the case
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: leiden, holland
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah, I have to say it did use to irritate me when the F/O signed the tech log! Not Dutch.. that was the problem..
Oblaa me old F/O! See your point about Airbus S.O.P's.
For sure Emirates need to address the seriously sloping Cockpit mentality they have at the mo if F/O's are to gain any experience in decision making on line.. Perhaps not as flat as our cheese eating friends employ mind!?
Oblaa me old F/O! See your point about Airbus S.O.P's.
For sure Emirates need to address the seriously sloping Cockpit mentality they have at the mo if F/O's are to gain any experience in decision making on line.. Perhaps not as flat as our cheese eating friends employ mind!?
Last edited by leftarmover; 1st May 2011 at 18:04.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: leiden, holland
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Emirares retrospectively changed Command upgrade policy, stating; any previous flying on a/c less than 55tons now doesn’t count towards the 4000hrs required for Command. And here we have no recourse for complaint or to challenge such nonsense. Good hey?!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jeez, you got a good memory buddy, that was 16 years ago
Word of warning though, having also held a command at our old firm, I can confirm that the course here is a helluva lot tougher!! But as you say its clearly made easier having had previous LHS time.
Agreed, the corporate mentality here is certainly geared towards it being a 'Captains Airline', but I think it is safe to say that generally that mentality doesn't creep into the cockpit. I certainly felt an integral part of the decision making process especially when it was my sector and didn't find the gradient that steep, maybe that was just me though?
Word of warning though, having also held a command at our old firm, I can confirm that the course here is a helluva lot tougher!! But as you say its clearly made easier having had previous LHS time.
Agreed, the corporate mentality here is certainly geared towards it being a 'Captains Airline', but I think it is safe to say that generally that mentality doesn't creep into the cockpit. I certainly felt an integral part of the decision making process especially when it was my sector and didn't find the gradient that steep, maybe that was just me though?
I think you will find the 55t rule was here before you Lefty. So that would not make it a change for you. But you joined anyway right?
The Don
The Don
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Sandpit
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@Oblaaspop
You are right about the STOP in Airbus SOP however the start+taxi is PF's job (CM1 or CM2) ... also crosswind shouldn't be an issue in a company that only takes experienced (4000+, err 2500+ ... err ... cadets) pilots.
Techlog is company's decision so no reason to upset anyone (never liked paperwork).
(55t or not ... still b***sh*t)
You are right about the STOP in Airbus SOP however the start+taxi is PF's job (CM1 or CM2) ... also crosswind shouldn't be an issue in a company that only takes experienced (4000+, err 2500+ ... err ... cadets) pilots.
Techlog is company's decision so no reason to upset anyone (never liked paperwork).
(55t or not ... still b***sh*t)
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: leiden, holland
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don; as I said; 'retrospective'. And I am not alone by any stretch of the imagination.. Disgraceful.
And sadly I would never of come if I'd actually realised how insecure my employment contract was going to be..
A 'Mc Job' compared with First World Employment. Be warned.
And sadly I would never of come if I'd actually realised how insecure my employment contract was going to be..
A 'Mc Job' compared with First World Employment. Be warned.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Springfield
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would never of come if I'd actually realised how insecure my employment contract was going to be..