EK407 - Tailstrike YMML 20 March
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Sorry Emirates, you guys calculated the wrong speeds for the current aircraft weight by 100Kg. It should have been 363 instead of 263. Next mistake, you accepted to take off in Config 1. Why would you do this to yourselves? Standard flap setting should be Config 3 and please don't bother about telling me about performance limitation. Your rotation speed was 23kts too slow based on the current configuration. Mistakes happen and we learn from this. With that long winded process that you have for inserting the Perf Speeds you would think that the method is foolproof but it is not. After one pilot enters the data into the laptop, the second pilot should repeat the process.
Last edited by poison; 5th Apr 2009 at 18:00.
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After one pilot enters the data into the laptop, the second pilot should repeat the process.
Not good.
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2 laptops or 2 EFB’s, 2 pilots, 2 calculations, and then we compare….sorry guys, that’s the way it should be….and not as per the company policy.
In my 3 previous Cie we were calculating manually all the speeds and it was working perfectly.
I personally had the numbers in my head before having them out of the book, but apparently with all the SUPER trainers and wonderful rocket scientist in the office it’s impossible, it has to be close to the KNOTS and don’t forget to read your mistakes with a good T/O review….where absolute no X-checks are done.
You all know that the weight on the load sheet is never the exact one, so why are we stressing the procedure like that, have a gross number in your head and finalize it with a computer, then a GOOD X-check between both pilots.
In no time the CM1 has to do the calculation himself with the computer …do you think it’s normal??
When you are really tired/ or not, the only way to have a good “feeling” of the numbers is to PUT IT YOURSELF in the computer and again the CM1 never does it or I have to say, doesn’t have to do it according to the book.
Do you remember the movie ARMAGEDDON? It was starting like that:
It happened before, it will happen again, it’s just a question of WHEN…..
In my 3 previous Cie we were calculating manually all the speeds and it was working perfectly.
I personally had the numbers in my head before having them out of the book, but apparently with all the SUPER trainers and wonderful rocket scientist in the office it’s impossible, it has to be close to the KNOTS and don’t forget to read your mistakes with a good T/O review….where absolute no X-checks are done.
You all know that the weight on the load sheet is never the exact one, so why are we stressing the procedure like that, have a gross number in your head and finalize it with a computer, then a GOOD X-check between both pilots.
In no time the CM1 has to do the calculation himself with the computer …do you think it’s normal??
When you are really tired/ or not, the only way to have a good “feeling” of the numbers is to PUT IT YOURSELF in the computer and again the CM1 never does it or I have to say, doesn’t have to do it according to the book.
Do you remember the movie ARMAGEDDON? It was starting like that:
It happened before, it will happen again, it’s just a question of WHEN…..
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Why because, in certain Cie there are no places for common sense anymore? That’s why.
Peoples are “falling asleep virtually” with too many procedures!
I personally believe that the training should be more “C.S.” oriented
Peoples are “falling asleep virtually” with too many procedures!
I personally believe that the training should be more “C.S.” oriented
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The first step is to compare the Laptop Take-off weight with the INIT page B take-off weight.
This should normally trap the ZFW as TOW error.
The only interesting thing out of poison's "write before you think" comment, is the Config 3 take-off.
I don't have a Laptop in front of me for actual numbers , but the Config 2 and particularly Config 3 V speeds would be much lower than those for Config 1. This would undoubtably have an impact on the aircraft's abillity to fly at a much lower indicated airspeed. Config 1, however, does gives better second segment (ie airborne) performance.
Earlier comments about rotating in the reds in a heavy 345 are absolutely true.
This event can not be purely and simply attributed to flight crew. It has root causes right through the EK training department and flight operations management.
Unfortunately, I wonder how much access the Australian ATSB will have to the Emirates training programs, the instructors, TRI's, TRE's, Managers. Draw your own conclusions.
Their report will effectively be crippled without the company's full cooperation.
This should normally trap the ZFW as TOW error.
The only interesting thing out of poison's "write before you think" comment, is the Config 3 take-off.
I don't have a Laptop in front of me for actual numbers , but the Config 2 and particularly Config 3 V speeds would be much lower than those for Config 1. This would undoubtably have an impact on the aircraft's abillity to fly at a much lower indicated airspeed. Config 1, however, does gives better second segment (ie airborne) performance.
Earlier comments about rotating in the reds in a heavy 345 are absolutely true.
This event can not be purely and simply attributed to flight crew. It has root causes right through the EK training department and flight operations management.
Unfortunately, I wonder how much access the Australian ATSB will have to the Emirates training programs, the instructors, TRI's, TRE's, Managers. Draw your own conclusions.
Their report will effectively be crippled without the company's full cooperation.
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From the National Newspaper
ABU DHABI // The two Emirates Airline pilots involved in an emergency landing at Melbourne Airport last month have resigned. It was reported that the jet’s tail hit the runway on take-off.
In announcing the resignations, Boutros Boutros, the airline’s senior vice president for media relations, said he did not know why the pilots had quit. He declined to give further details.
“We do not like to talk about it because now the investigation is ongoing,” Mr Boutros said. “We have to wait for the investigation. I know that they resigned; that is all I can confirm.”
In announcing the resignations, Boutros Boutros, the airline’s senior vice president for media relations, said he did not know why the pilots had quit. He declined to give further details.
“We do not like to talk about it because now the investigation is ongoing,” Mr Boutros said. “We have to wait for the investigation. I know that they resigned; that is all I can confirm.”
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independant speed calculation
Independant speed calculation
How it should be done.
How I was told not to do during my Boeing training because it was not SOP.
How I do it on the line non SOP.
How it should be done.
How I was told not to do during my Boeing training because it was not SOP.
How I do it on the line non SOP.
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Guys we have to agree mistakes are done.
It could have happened to everyone lets not forget we are all bright guys after the incident as we are analysing it from our sofas.
The unfortunate thing is that when it happens in the Middle East the airlines treat it in a different way even more if you happen to be an expat.
It could have happened to everyone lets not forget we are all bright guys after the incident as we are analysing it from our sofas.
The unfortunate thing is that when it happens in the Middle East the airlines treat it in a different way even more if you happen to be an expat.
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As the mist dissipates, we now know more or less what has happened.
By bullying the guys to resign, Emirates just wants to cover up their contributing factors to the screw-up. As for example what LOSA has told them (distractions) and the completely inadequate augmenting space problem raised by many pilots. This is a indirect admittance to complicity, because if they would not feel so, they would openly talk about the incident (internally), to find out ALL the flaws that led to such a mistake and to remedy it. But there's no interest to that, just the blaming game ...
The trail of factors leading to such an incident is almost too visible. Not only the above mentioned problems, but just as much the inadequate training and rostering for MFF. Not surprisingly this has been a issue with ie. Lufthansa, but at least they implemented some costly changes in operations regarding MFF. The other thing never raised, is that the somewhat similar incidents JNB and MEL had both homegrown captains at controls. Not that I would defend the DEC policy nor pretend they are better captains. But this might show some flaws in the training of EK's FOs right down to upgrading within EK. Many have pointed out the all too narrow path of our SOPs and their adherence, leaving out some common sense and lateral thinking, or experience gained elsewhere to settle in.
Another thing that is popping up, is that a lot of pilots seem very distracted lately. Not surprising, especially for the new ones, as housing issues leave some utterly frustrated fellows. Some run into marital problems as their Janes take it out on them. Additionally some discover up to half a month just taken away from them, apparently equippment change, and are therefore confronted with a substiantial salary loss, as they only get unused ADs. The flight pay system now shows its weakness. These absences of minds are just as much contributing factors to incidents, and the company bears the biggest brunt of this. No "take it or leave it" bulls#!t can talk this away.
I know, I know, nothing will happen and they couldn't care less. But it is worth mentioning it, the moral complicity can't even be brushed under a shiny dish-dash. Some day the customer will hear and make his choice, it has happened before.
By bullying the guys to resign, Emirates just wants to cover up their contributing factors to the screw-up. As for example what LOSA has told them (distractions) and the completely inadequate augmenting space problem raised by many pilots. This is a indirect admittance to complicity, because if they would not feel so, they would openly talk about the incident (internally), to find out ALL the flaws that led to such a mistake and to remedy it. But there's no interest to that, just the blaming game ...
The trail of factors leading to such an incident is almost too visible. Not only the above mentioned problems, but just as much the inadequate training and rostering for MFF. Not surprisingly this has been a issue with ie. Lufthansa, but at least they implemented some costly changes in operations regarding MFF. The other thing never raised, is that the somewhat similar incidents JNB and MEL had both homegrown captains at controls. Not that I would defend the DEC policy nor pretend they are better captains. But this might show some flaws in the training of EK's FOs right down to upgrading within EK. Many have pointed out the all too narrow path of our SOPs and their adherence, leaving out some common sense and lateral thinking, or experience gained elsewhere to settle in.
Another thing that is popping up, is that a lot of pilots seem very distracted lately. Not surprising, especially for the new ones, as housing issues leave some utterly frustrated fellows. Some run into marital problems as their Janes take it out on them. Additionally some discover up to half a month just taken away from them, apparently equippment change, and are therefore confronted with a substiantial salary loss, as they only get unused ADs. The flight pay system now shows its weakness. These absences of minds are just as much contributing factors to incidents, and the company bears the biggest brunt of this. No "take it or leave it" bulls#!t can talk this away.
I know, I know, nothing will happen and they couldn't care less. But it is worth mentioning it, the moral complicity can't even be brushed under a shiny dish-dash. Some day the customer will hear and make his choice, it has happened before.
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The other thing never raised, is that the somewhat similar incidents JNB and MEL had both homegrown captains at controls. Not that I would defend the DEC policy nor pretend they are better captains. But this might show some flaws in the training of EK's FOs right down to upgrading within EK. Many have pointed out the all too narrow path of our SOPs and their adherence, leaving out some common sense and lateral thinking, or experience gained elsewhere to settle in...wrote pool
Apart from the ex cadets (who don't feature in these two or any other incidents) all EK pilots have worked for other airlines, just like the DECs.
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1. At the time of the JNB incident there were around three DECs and several hundred homegrown Captains.
2. Apart from the ex cadets (who don't feature in these two or any other incidents) all EK pilots have worked for other airlines, just like the DECs.
3. who don't feature in these two or any other incidents
2. Apart from the ex cadets (who don't feature in these two or any other incidents) all EK pilots have worked for other airlines, just like the DECs.
3. who don't feature in these two or any other incidents
2. - As for your second argument: Absolutely true, as I mentioned, I do NOT pretend DECs are better. However, if you are at EK, you have to agree with me, that as FO you are so much subdued and threatend by the upcoming upgrade, that you do not bring in your earlier experience, you forget it, it is whipped out of you big time. DECs had a much bigger chance to survive the training with some experience and common sense left.
THAT was my argument, and no other, please!
3. - Wrong again, but those are very effectively brushed under the dish-dashs.
Last edited by pool; 7th Apr 2009 at 05:32.
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DEC's cover the spectrum and have from the beginning, very capable and very questionable. The issue is not relevant here. It seems it was an isolated mistake, that's it. Could happen to anyone on the day. Hope these guys move on and come to realize they will one day be better off.
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Video - news.com.au
Currently on the australian news sites and posted initially on the 9th. Has some of the ATSB report been released?
Currently on the australian news sites and posted initially on the 9th. Has some of the ATSB report been released?
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411A
Yes they do. When doing the SOPs the CM2 calls the V speeds and the Green Dot speed from the MCDU. The CM1 confirms that it's within 2 kts of the computed Green Dot speed from the laptop. If it's not within 2 kts, something is wrong 
Not only that, but EK does not appear to have a gross error check with their takeoff speeds versus weight.
Not good.
Not good.