EK407 - Tailstrike YMML 20 March
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Interesting to see how our "Flight Safety" department stands up to management on this.
I'm sure they will quote chapter and verse on how these guys failed to follow SOP's.
Bet London to a brick that the really important relevant stuff (systemic issues, chain of events, swiss cheese etc etc) will be sidelined as management ducks for cover and makes the crew the scapegoats for this event.
It's (mis) management at the highest level in flight operations that is the real culprit here.
Take some ownership and corporate responsibility for once in your miserable lives.
I'm sure they will quote chapter and verse on how these guys failed to follow SOP's.
Bet London to a brick that the really important relevant stuff (systemic issues, chain of events, swiss cheese etc etc) will be sidelined as management ducks for cover and makes the crew the scapegoats for this event.
It's (mis) management at the highest level in flight operations that is the real culprit here.
Take some ownership and corporate responsibility for once in your miserable lives.
Join Date: Sep 2006
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the 2 guys could have made lots of money, they just needed to tell the CAA, FAA etc. that we can operate up 22 hrs and are always fatigue, I am sure EK would have paid them to keep quiet
the other day a crew extended for more than 2 hrs, nice one, it undermines the rest of us who try to operate safe
the other day a crew extended for more than 2 hrs, nice one, it undermines the rest of us who try to operate safe
Join Date: Jan 1999
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the other day a crew extended for more than 2 hrs, nice one, it undermines the rest of us who try to operate safe
I dont want to be a pax on a flight when the crew extends their duty time, maybe we should publish these flights on the internet.
So now if anyone considers extending their FDP they will be branded as "unsafe"? Get a life!
I dont want to be a pax on a flight when the crew extends their duty time, maybe we should publish these flights on the internet.
So now if anyone considers extending their FDP they will be branded as "unsafe"? Get a life!
Join Date: Apr 2007
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The Flight Safety dudes might be a nice dedicated bunch, in fact they are, but as a department they are powerless. These guys have been 'sacked' within a few days of returning to DXB. Have EK Safety Dept even completed their report in that time? And yet they could not stop the supreme management from making their own conclusion. (And what of the ATSB??) It shows that Flt Ops have no respect for their own safety dept so its not a wonder no one else has. Non punative reporting.... my bum! Ek and safety culture....my bum! Will we learn anything from this... only that we are on our own, safety can't support us, management won't.
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Goretex,
Since when is extending duty time unsafe? It is industry standard practice to extend duty time in unusual circumstances.
I agree it is not to be used willy nilly anytime the company feels like it - but get your facts straight before calling it unsafe.
Keep the blue side up
J
Since when is extending duty time unsafe? It is industry standard practice to extend duty time in unusual circumstances.
I agree it is not to be used willy nilly anytime the company feels like it - but get your facts straight before calling it unsafe.
Keep the blue side up
J
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Is it just a rumor that these guys have been sacked/encouraged to resign? or is it for sure. If its the latter then ek safety is still in the dark ages. What happened to looking at the factors of how such an incident could have occured to an experienced and proffesional aircrew and then adopting changes to the ek system that prevents such an error from occuring again? If those guys did it anyone could have made the same error given the same circumstances.
Sure hope that rumor is untrue.
Sure hope that rumor is untrue.
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Amid all the speculation and various threads on the incident ,I am a little unclear. Does anyone have the facts. I must have missed the punch line somewhere.
1) What was the real cause , can somebody confirm that incorrect data entry was the issue ?
2) Can someone confirm the resignation of the operating crew ?
How EK management deal with it is predictable , thats no surprise.
1) What was the real cause , can somebody confirm that incorrect data entry was the issue ?
2) Can someone confirm the resignation of the operating crew ?
How EK management deal with it is predictable , thats no surprise.
Join Date: Sep 2006
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standard practise??? maybe in a dodgy charter company, never heard that a major airline extends the duty time for their pilots without asking them (variations).
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Gore Tex,
You are talking out of your butt my friend!
Virgin have used variations for years (Florida 2 etc), as have all of the large established UK and EU Charter Airlines (not dodgy little outfits).
These variations are endorsed by the national aviation authorities. Give the UK CAA a call if you want further clarification.........
If you are not in possession of the facts, then don't bother posting!
Incidentally, I have only been in 1 situation in the last 5 years where I've needed to extend a duty (less than 30 mins by the way).
I do hope that one day the operating capt on you annual leave flight with you and your family down the back refuses to extend by 5 mins and the flight is cancelled screwing up your vacation..... No doubt you will sit back gleefully safe in the knowledge that a major catastrophe was narrowly averted...... NOT!!!!!!
You are talking out of your butt my friend!
Virgin have used variations for years (Florida 2 etc), as have all of the large established UK and EU Charter Airlines (not dodgy little outfits).
These variations are endorsed by the national aviation authorities. Give the UK CAA a call if you want further clarification.........
If you are not in possession of the facts, then don't bother posting!
Incidentally, I have only been in 1 situation in the last 5 years where I've needed to extend a duty (less than 30 mins by the way).
I do hope that one day the operating capt on you annual leave flight with you and your family down the back refuses to extend by 5 mins and the flight is cancelled screwing up your vacation..... No doubt you will sit back gleefully safe in the knowledge that a major catastrophe was narrowly averted...... NOT!!!!!!
Join Date: Sep 2007
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its a really difficult situation and nobody can say that it would never happen to them. I truly feel for the people and families concerned. My understanding is a 2 instead of a 3 in the performance. Resigned with little prospect of reinstatement. I honestly thought we had a fairly robust system for trapping this but obviously not. 2 laptops in the aircraft perhaps. 35m$ plus repair bill and ac maybe scrapped. A nightmare for everybody and a truly humbling incident.
I'm dissapointed and a bit suprised by the forced resignations- it was clearly not willful. possibly a sign of the times.
my thoughts to the guys. in the blink of an eye everything changes forever.
I'm dissapointed and a bit suprised by the forced resignations- it was clearly not willful. possibly a sign of the times.
my thoughts to the guys. in the blink of an eye everything changes forever.
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Looking through the threads on this subject it seems pretty clear why what happened in Melbourne happened. Except it isn't. At the moment it's all conjecture and 'someone told me'.
Fact is both guys are still on the roster and both scheduled to operate flight(s) later this month.
My guess is that the people who really know what happened are not posting here.
Fact is both guys are still on the roster and both scheduled to operate flight(s) later this month.
My guess is that the people who really know what happened are not posting here.
Rumour has it that the crew were critical of some EK practices when they were interviewed by the ATSB. This was relayed to EK H/O by the EK attendees in MEL. Upon returning to DXB the crew were invited to resign.
BTW. The a/c is now behind closed doors in MEL.
BTW. The a/c is now behind closed doors in MEL.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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"So they screwed up. There but for the grace of God go we!!! If it wasn't for the crap hours and patterns we fly and the constant abuse that's dished out these sort of things probably would not happen."
Sorry, but Scandinavian Airlines did the same in PVG 2005. They had a 48 hour rest before the flight and by that time they had a very easy life on that fleet.
"This isn't the last time this sort of thing is going to happen either, when you're flying with only TWO pilots from the likes of CPT at night almost 10hrs and all the other long flights with inadequate crew numbers and no crew rest what do you expect?"
Same again, the SAS crew were augmented by one FO. It didn't help them.
I don't know the procedures for checking the FMC inputs in EK but clearly they missed out on that one (if FMC inputs were the problem).
SAS crew was back in duty in a couple of weeks. Although they accepted the blame (as one said: we screwed up) the company never took it out on them.
Good luck to the guys involved. I can only imagine the stress they and their families will feel now.
Sorry, but Scandinavian Airlines did the same in PVG 2005. They had a 48 hour rest before the flight and by that time they had a very easy life on that fleet.
"This isn't the last time this sort of thing is going to happen either, when you're flying with only TWO pilots from the likes of CPT at night almost 10hrs and all the other long flights with inadequate crew numbers and no crew rest what do you expect?"
Same again, the SAS crew were augmented by one FO. It didn't help them.
I don't know the procedures for checking the FMC inputs in EK but clearly they missed out on that one (if FMC inputs were the problem).
SAS crew was back in duty in a couple of weeks. Although they accepted the blame (as one said: we screwed up) the company never took it out on them.
Good luck to the guys involved. I can only imagine the stress they and their families will feel now.