EK407 - Tailstrike YMML 20 March
Join Date: May 2005
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The more I think about these 'forced' resignations the more pissed off I am. Even if they did screw up, they recovered, albeit with the narrowest of margins, and the real issues are STILL being ignored!
Since the pre-flight SOP' have now been changed, doesn't this PROVE that EK considers they were wrong in the first place? If events transpired due to negligence, then why change the SOP's?
I don't know which holes in the swiss cheese model were aligned, whether they were fatigue, improper SOP's, or more likely DISTRACTIONS in the cockpit, but it appears that EK has decided it was the SOP's, hence the changes.
This directly contradicts the resignations and it would make a nice argument in a court of law.
Since the pre-flight SOP' have now been changed, doesn't this PROVE that EK considers they were wrong in the first place? If events transpired due to negligence, then why change the SOP's?
I don't know which holes in the swiss cheese model were aligned, whether they were fatigue, improper SOP's, or more likely DISTRACTIONS in the cockpit, but it appears that EK has decided it was the SOP's, hence the changes.
This directly contradicts the resignations and it would make a nice argument in a court of law.
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I agree, if the SOP's were not followed then why change them? A very unfortunate situation but every incident, even a serious one, does not warrant constant change. More distraction, and a more time consuming procedure without being safer IMO.
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These new SOP's are less safe, increased work load for CM1 and all that is going to happen is that the 2 crew will agree on the data entered to ensure they get the same result, then further confussed if one laptop is used or not charged, what if they then both make the same mistake with the Take off weight!! CM1 loses his impartiality with this new check.
I also think its a disgrace they can 'fire' these 2 guys and then change the SOP s
I also think its a disgrace they can 'fire' these 2 guys and then change the SOP s
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Pilot of Emirates flight that nearly crashed at Melbourne Airport was sleep-deprived
Pilot of Emirates flight that nearly crashed at Melbourne Airport was sleep-deprived
By Ellen Whinnett
Sunday Herald Sun
April 26, 2009 12:01am
Concerns ... the Emirates Airbus that had to land at Melbourne Airport after it was damaged during take off.
Several sources told the Sunday Herald Sun that Emirates - like many modern airlines - ordered its pilots to take off at reduced thrust when possible to cut fuel costs, emissions and wear on the aircraft.
The thrust or power settings are determined by factors such as aircraft weight, weather conditions, the surrounding terrain and runway length.
But an Emirates source said the March 20 flight - EK407 to Dubai - was set at the "absolute minimum" thrust, leaving little room for error.
"There was no margin for error," the source said.
Related Coverage
"This is all about the money."
Emirates yesterday issued a statement saying safety was a top priority for the airline.
"Safety is at the forefront of all operations within the Emirates group," a spokeswoman said.
Sources said a report due on Thursday was expected to show the near-catastrophic accident happened after the incorrect weight was typed into the plane's computers, causing it to set an inadequate take-off speed.
Air safety investigators are examining Emirates' staff records, including the work rosters of some of its pilots, to see if there are systemic safety problems within the airline that could have contributed to the near disaster.
The Sunday Herald Sun learned that the pilot of the plane was also almost at the threshold of the number of hours he was legally able to fly.
Emirates pilots are permitted to fly a maximum 100 hours each 28 days.
Investigators are examining whether pilot fatigue was a factor after being told the pilot had barely slept the day before the flight.
Several sources confirmed that Australian Transport Safety Bureau investigators were also looking at whether any other "human factors" needed to be addressed.
The inspection of Emirates' records is part of the bureau's investigation - expected to take up to a year - into the reasons behind the error.
The inquiry will investigate issues such as cockpit distractions and crew resource management.
A source said it was not possible for one person alone to commit the error.
"It happens because a range of things come together at the right time," the source said.
An Emirates source said the airline was in a risky situation because it did not have a culture that encouraged people to voice their safety concerns.
The source said some Emirates pilots were badly fatigued, but people were afraid to speak out.
"There is a limit to how far you can push people," the source said. "Those long-haul flights are really, really fatiguing and demanding.
"But a punitive culture means people are too afraid to speak out.
"Two things, (flight safety and the punitive culture) in my view, that do not match in 2009 and in a major airline.
"A very bad cocktail."
It can also be revealed that:
THE tail crashed into the runway with such force that passengers heard a loud scraping noise and some saw a heavy shower of sparks.
THE impact ripped a hole in the fuselage, causing what appeared to be smoke and dust to swirl into the cabin.
THE pilot made three announcements during the next 35 minutes as he circled Port Phillip Bay to dump fuel before returning to land.
NONE of the announcements told passengers how serious the situation was and the passengers were not in the "brace position" when the plane landed.
THE weight error was made before the plane left the departure gate.
PASSENGERS, including Anita and Ray Chappel, escaped uninjured after the plane landed safely.
The two pilots involved in the accident were forced to resign 48 hours after they were flown back to Dubai.
Safety Bureau and Civil Aviation Safety Authority officials are thought to be concerned about the action taken against the pilots, but have no jurisdiction to intervene.
Emirates pilots, using false names, have flooded the internet to express their concern about rostering, fatigue and the action taken against the two pilots.
The men are expatriates and at least one has since returned to his home country.
The United Arab Emirates does not allow unions, so more than 2000 Emirates pilots employed worldwide are not covered by a union.
Investigations by the Sunday Herald Sun further revealed the pilot was no stranger to the runways at Tullamarine, flying into Melbourne for almost five years, about once every two months.
The pilots - two operating pilots and two augmenting pilots - and 14 crew members returned to their hotel in Melbourne immediately after the accident.
The next day, bureau investigators came to the hotel to conduct interviews.
The man leading the inquiry is investigator Paul Ballard.
Emirates is sending some of its senior managers to Australia to handle the fall-out from Thursday's release of the preliminary report.
Andrew Parker, an Australian now based in Dubai as Emirates' senior vice-president of public, government and environmental affairs, will arrive in Australia this week with Capt Alan Stealey, Emirates' divisional senior vice-president of flight operations.
Emirates declined to comment on the March 20 accident because of the bureau's investigation.
But the company said it had continuously reached international safety standards and had been a founding member of the Gulf Flight Safety Committee - a Middle East aviation body.
The company denied it had a punitive culture that discouraged open discussion about safety concerns.
"Emirates has a positive and open safety reporting culture that helps management understand safety issues before they become significant concerns," a spokeswoman said.
The company would not answer direct questions about reduced-thrust take-offs, the fate of the pilots and the future of the damaged aircraft.
By Ellen Whinnett
Sunday Herald Sun
April 26, 2009 12:01am
Concerns ... the Emirates Airbus that had to land at Melbourne Airport after it was damaged during take off.- Plane almost crashed at Melbourne Airport
- Pilot in control was sleep-deprived
- Under orders to take off at reduced power
Several sources told the Sunday Herald Sun that Emirates - like many modern airlines - ordered its pilots to take off at reduced thrust when possible to cut fuel costs, emissions and wear on the aircraft.
The thrust or power settings are determined by factors such as aircraft weight, weather conditions, the surrounding terrain and runway length.
But an Emirates source said the March 20 flight - EK407 to Dubai - was set at the "absolute minimum" thrust, leaving little room for error.
"There was no margin for error," the source said.
Related Coverage
- Highs and lowsHerald Sun, 26 Apr 2009
- Reader's Comments: Sleep-deprived pilot almost crashed jetNEWS.com.au,
- Jet passengers' scrape with deathNEWS.com.au, 12 Apr 2009
- EK407's scrape with deathHerald Sun, 12 Apr 2009
- Readers' Comments: Tulla jet scare - Herald SunHerald Sun,
"This is all about the money."
Emirates yesterday issued a statement saying safety was a top priority for the airline.
"Safety is at the forefront of all operations within the Emirates group," a spokeswoman said.
Sources said a report due on Thursday was expected to show the near-catastrophic accident happened after the incorrect weight was typed into the plane's computers, causing it to set an inadequate take-off speed.
Air safety investigators are examining Emirates' staff records, including the work rosters of some of its pilots, to see if there are systemic safety problems within the airline that could have contributed to the near disaster.
The Sunday Herald Sun learned that the pilot of the plane was also almost at the threshold of the number of hours he was legally able to fly.
Emirates pilots are permitted to fly a maximum 100 hours each 28 days.
Investigators are examining whether pilot fatigue was a factor after being told the pilot had barely slept the day before the flight.
Several sources confirmed that Australian Transport Safety Bureau investigators were also looking at whether any other "human factors" needed to be addressed.
The inspection of Emirates' records is part of the bureau's investigation - expected to take up to a year - into the reasons behind the error.
The inquiry will investigate issues such as cockpit distractions and crew resource management.
A source said it was not possible for one person alone to commit the error.
"It happens because a range of things come together at the right time," the source said.
An Emirates source said the airline was in a risky situation because it did not have a culture that encouraged people to voice their safety concerns.
The source said some Emirates pilots were badly fatigued, but people were afraid to speak out.
"There is a limit to how far you can push people," the source said. "Those long-haul flights are really, really fatiguing and demanding.
"But a punitive culture means people are too afraid to speak out.
"Two things, (flight safety and the punitive culture) in my view, that do not match in 2009 and in a major airline.
"A very bad cocktail."
It can also be revealed that:
THE tail crashed into the runway with such force that passengers heard a loud scraping noise and some saw a heavy shower of sparks.
THE impact ripped a hole in the fuselage, causing what appeared to be smoke and dust to swirl into the cabin.
THE pilot made three announcements during the next 35 minutes as he circled Port Phillip Bay to dump fuel before returning to land.
NONE of the announcements told passengers how serious the situation was and the passengers were not in the "brace position" when the plane landed.
THE weight error was made before the plane left the departure gate.
PASSENGERS, including Anita and Ray Chappel, escaped uninjured after the plane landed safely.
The two pilots involved in the accident were forced to resign 48 hours after they were flown back to Dubai.
Safety Bureau and Civil Aviation Safety Authority officials are thought to be concerned about the action taken against the pilots, but have no jurisdiction to intervene.
Emirates pilots, using false names, have flooded the internet to express their concern about rostering, fatigue and the action taken against the two pilots.
The men are expatriates and at least one has since returned to his home country.
The United Arab Emirates does not allow unions, so more than 2000 Emirates pilots employed worldwide are not covered by a union.
Investigations by the Sunday Herald Sun further revealed the pilot was no stranger to the runways at Tullamarine, flying into Melbourne for almost five years, about once every two months.
The pilots - two operating pilots and two augmenting pilots - and 14 crew members returned to their hotel in Melbourne immediately after the accident.
The next day, bureau investigators came to the hotel to conduct interviews.
The man leading the inquiry is investigator Paul Ballard.
Emirates is sending some of its senior managers to Australia to handle the fall-out from Thursday's release of the preliminary report.
Andrew Parker, an Australian now based in Dubai as Emirates' senior vice-president of public, government and environmental affairs, will arrive in Australia this week with Capt Alan Stealey, Emirates' divisional senior vice-president of flight operations.
Emirates declined to comment on the March 20 accident because of the bureau's investigation.
But the company said it had continuously reached international safety standards and had been a founding member of the Gulf Flight Safety Committee - a Middle East aviation body.
The company denied it had a punitive culture that discouraged open discussion about safety concerns.
"Emirates has a positive and open safety reporting culture that helps management understand safety issues before they become significant concerns," a spokeswoman said.
The company would not answer direct questions about reduced-thrust take-offs, the fate of the pilots and the future of the damaged aircraft.
Well that'll learn em"
Absolutely ridiculous considering they were following company SOP's
The two pilots involved in the accident were forced to resign 48 hours after they were flown back to Dubai.
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Well good on ya Australia. Man how I love the free world !!!
How management must be cringing at a press they cannot control.
I had a suspicion about the sudden need to communicate with us , hence the " commanders conference" .After no pilots meeting for 3 years we suddenly get one in lieu of the prelimanary findings. Despicable !!!!
Not that they have any intention of really listening to our concerns. Its just dammage control. As for the Safety Beareau checking rosters. I sincerely hope that the investigators do it as follows :
We would like to contact your pilots personally and ask them for copies of their rosters. We would not like to access the company scheduling data base ( as this can be changed to hide questionable rosters).
Quoting an airline spokesman " we do not have a punitive culture"
then in the next sentence " the two pilots were forced to resign within 48 hrs of returning to Dubai "
Do they realise how incompetent they look !!! even a layman can read between the lines.
How management must be cringing at a press they cannot control.
I had a suspicion about the sudden need to communicate with us , hence the " commanders conference" .After no pilots meeting for 3 years we suddenly get one in lieu of the prelimanary findings. Despicable !!!!
Not that they have any intention of really listening to our concerns. Its just dammage control. As for the Safety Beareau checking rosters. I sincerely hope that the investigators do it as follows :
We would like to contact your pilots personally and ask them for copies of their rosters. We would not like to access the company scheduling data base ( as this can be changed to hide questionable rosters).
Quoting an airline spokesman " we do not have a punitive culture"
then in the next sentence " the two pilots were forced to resign within 48 hrs of returning to Dubai "
Do they realise how incompetent they look !!! even a layman can read between the lines.
Join Date: Jul 2005
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More Bad Press for EK
News from the UK is that the Flight Attendant,involved in the bomb hoax scare has been commited for trial in the UK.
AN Australian flight attendant accused of a bomb hoax on a London-bound plane from Dubai has been committed for trial in a UK court
http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/...014090,00.html
Some say it never rains, but it pours !!!
AN Australian flight attendant accused of a bomb hoax on a London-bound plane from Dubai has been committed for trial in a UK court
http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/...014090,00.html
Some say it never rains, but it pours !!!
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Dear xxxx
Thank you for contacting the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Aviation Safety Hotline.
I will forward the three emails related to your concern(s) with Emirates onto our Flight Standards Division as an informational/fyi piece for their review.
Sincerely,
Jim Knight, Aviation Safety Analyst (AAI-003)
Aviation Safety Hotline
---------------------------------------
Federal Aviation Administration
Office of Accident Investigation
800 Independence Avenue SW
Washington, DC 20591
1-800-255-1111
Thank you for contacting the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Aviation Safety Hotline.
I will forward the three emails related to your concern(s) with Emirates onto our Flight Standards Division as an informational/fyi piece for their review.
Sincerely,
Jim Knight, Aviation Safety Analyst (AAI-003)
Aviation Safety Hotline
---------------------------------------
Federal Aviation Administration
Office of Accident Investigation
800 Independence Avenue SW
Washington, DC 20591
1-800-255-1111