Ayla Aaa Jordan
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mmatalla,
Like it or not the CARC licence is not highly regarded throughout the world and certainly not in the Gulf States, perhaps a legacy from questionable licencing issue in the past.
The aim for the student is to gain employment at the end of their training, and certainly with a JAA or CASA Licence those chances are better than with a CARC licence.
With the euro and pound exchange rate againist the dollar, students can get a JAA /CASA ATPL for less than the price of your CARC CPL/IR course! 80,000 US at todays exchange rate is over 54,000 UK Pounds!
The school you own in the UK is offering a JAA ATPL for just over 51000 UK pounds including MCC!
Like it or not the CARC licence is not highly regarded throughout the world and certainly not in the Gulf States, perhaps a legacy from questionable licencing issue in the past.
The aim for the student is to gain employment at the end of their training, and certainly with a JAA or CASA Licence those chances are better than with a CARC licence.
With the euro and pound exchange rate againist the dollar, students can get a JAA /CASA ATPL for less than the price of your CARC CPL/IR course! 80,000 US at todays exchange rate is over 54,000 UK Pounds!
The school you own in the UK is offering a JAA ATPL for just over 51000 UK pounds including MCC!
Last edited by Ayla; 28th Dec 2008 at 04:46.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Dear Ayla;
You are correct in some respect but we do not rely soley on the CARC license. we are an approved Gulf Air training center (the only one so far in Jordan), and we are currently seeking approval from three other airlines in the region.
Of course, anyone who specificaly wants a JAA license is directed to our UK flight school www.flyaft.com
Marwan
You are correct in some respect but we do not rely soley on the CARC license. we are an approved Gulf Air training center (the only one so far in Jordan), and we are currently seeking approval from three other airlines in the region.
Of course, anyone who specificaly wants a JAA license is directed to our UK flight school www.flyaft.com
Marwan
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Dear mmatalla
What exactly does being an approved Gulf Air Training Centre mean for the students, and not just Bahraini students.
Are Gulf Air prepared to take students of any nationality (subject to them passing normal entry requirements) into their airline if they are trained at Ayla?
How many students have they accepted from you who were not Bahraini's and not under BDB sponsorship
What percentage of Bahrain students that you have graduated have been employed by Gulf Air.
What exactly does being an approved Gulf Air Training Centre mean for the students, and not just Bahraini students.
Are Gulf Air prepared to take students of any nationality (subject to them passing normal entry requirements) into their airline if they are trained at Ayla?
How many students have they accepted from you who were not Bahraini's and not under BDB sponsorship
What percentage of Bahrain students that you have graduated have been employed by Gulf Air.
Join Date: Oct 2008
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AYLA
AYLA, Mr. Marwan is trageting the Bahraini community not anyone else..
his replies and answeres are all subjected to Bahraini wannabe cadets AND NOT YOU.
Mr. Marwan sorry but GF and BDB and BAH GOV is concered about their BAHiz students more than your or anyone else academy.
And by the way Ayla is not the only approved academy by GF, wider and deeper your researches.
And for your info. Ayla could be still linked with a week hair to GF approval but not to BDB ( which should be no. 1 concern for you ) anymore.
I am a GULF NATIONAL CITIZEN and I can easly get a job in any airline in the Gulf with any licence without the Ayla approved thing.
If you want to approve something agaisnt that, please provide, mention how many Bahrain students will join Ayla in 09 sponsord by BDB or BAH AIR or GF ( I MEAN CADETS ).
Thanks
his replies and answeres are all subjected to Bahraini wannabe cadets AND NOT YOU.
Mr. Marwan sorry but GF and BDB and BAH GOV is concered about their BAHiz students more than your or anyone else academy.
And by the way Ayla is not the only approved academy by GF, wider and deeper your researches.
And for your info. Ayla could be still linked with a week hair to GF approval but not to BDB ( which should be no. 1 concern for you ) anymore.
I am a GULF NATIONAL CITIZEN and I can easly get a job in any airline in the Gulf with any licence without the Ayla approved thing.
If you want to approve something agaisnt that, please provide, mention how many Bahrain students will join Ayla in 09 sponsord by BDB or BAH AIR or GF ( I MEAN CADETS ).
Thanks
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Dear Ayla and EHBH;
Allow me to clarify. Ayla is approved by Gulf Air means that any Ayla graduate can get a job with Gulf Air. This does not mean they are guaranteed a job, just that they could get a job if they pass all the requirements and Gulf Air wants them. A graduate from any other academy in Jordan (besides Ayla) can still work for Gulf Air if they want to hire him, but he/she will need to take an approved JAA ATPL course. Ayla offers this course and we have already graduated a class of Bahraini Pilots who are now first officers at Gulf Air. I checked as late as last week, andwe are the only Academy in Jordan approved by Gulf Air. The only other one, QAC, is in Qatar.
BDB is only a financer, but they have no say or opinion on where the cadets train. In fact, the CEO of BDB was very clear in his meetings with us that BDB does not try to direct the cadets in any way, and that they leave that decision to the cadet(s). I beleive this is a very wise policy.
The BDB finance scheme that is backed by the Bahraini Government (and now has the attention of the Bahrain Labor Fund) is extremely progressive, and i admire them for it. For obvious reasons, it is only available for Bahrainis.
Although we market regionaly, the majority of our cadets are form Bahrain (approx 60%). The rest are from Jordan and other countries in the region.
I hope i have answered everything.
Allow me to clarify. Ayla is approved by Gulf Air means that any Ayla graduate can get a job with Gulf Air. This does not mean they are guaranteed a job, just that they could get a job if they pass all the requirements and Gulf Air wants them. A graduate from any other academy in Jordan (besides Ayla) can still work for Gulf Air if they want to hire him, but he/she will need to take an approved JAA ATPL course. Ayla offers this course and we have already graduated a class of Bahraini Pilots who are now first officers at Gulf Air. I checked as late as last week, andwe are the only Academy in Jordan approved by Gulf Air. The only other one, QAC, is in Qatar.
BDB is only a financer, but they have no say or opinion on where the cadets train. In fact, the CEO of BDB was very clear in his meetings with us that BDB does not try to direct the cadets in any way, and that they leave that decision to the cadet(s). I beleive this is a very wise policy.
The BDB finance scheme that is backed by the Bahraini Government (and now has the attention of the Bahrain Labor Fund) is extremely progressive, and i admire them for it. For obvious reasons, it is only available for Bahrainis.
Although we market regionaly, the majority of our cadets are form Bahrain (approx 60%). The rest are from Jordan and other countries in the region.
I hope i have answered everything.
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So Even with Gulf Air there is no advantage of getting a CARC licence from Ayla over a JAA ATPL. However the JAA ATPL holder has much better prospects at many other Airlines than with a CARC licence, and it's cheaper!
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If the objective is to get a JAA license, then we are happy to offer it at AFT. However, the price is still higher than Ayla, even after the decline of the Euro/Pound. So i doubt that you can get a JAA license for less than what you would pay at Ayla, but i will research this and let you know.
But please keep in mind what I said earlier; reasearching your training should go far beyond PPRUNE and a Google Search. If you can afford it, visit the school(s). If you can't, as to speak to graduates and/or instructors. Talk to the airline(s) you are considering. Gather as much information as possible before taking this very important decision.
But please keep in mind what I said earlier; reasearching your training should go far beyond PPRUNE and a Google Search. If you can afford it, visit the school(s). If you can't, as to speak to graduates and/or instructors. Talk to the airline(s) you are considering. Gather as much information as possible before taking this very important decision.
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mmatalla
If it helps the prices I used are from the Ayla and AFT Websites utilising XE Currency Converter.
I know that a JAA ATPL Licence is easy to convert to a GCAA licence and QCAA licence as well as most other Gulf Countries, not so with a CARC licence.
Why do Kuwait Airlines and previously Oman Air send there cadet pilots to AFT and not Ayla? I can only presume it's a JAA Licence they want.
If it helps the prices I used are from the Ayla and AFT Websites utilising XE Currency Converter.
I know that a JAA ATPL Licence is easy to convert to a GCAA licence and QCAA licence as well as most other Gulf Countries, not so with a CARC licence.
Why do Kuwait Airlines and previously Oman Air send there cadet pilots to AFT and not Ayla? I can only presume it's a JAA Licence they want.
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i guess i was too busy trying to build a world class academy.
( i ) As other world class academies are doing, is Ayla Aviation willing to share employment statistics with your prospective customers? What percentage of your self-sponsored cadets have successfully gained employment as First Officers with the airliners?
( ii ) Gulf Air "approval" - was this not a private internal audit that Gulf Air conducts with anyone they wish to do business with in the future? I believe you may have twisted and misrepresented what was simply an internal audit. Gulf Air is not a regulatory body, nor are they an organization that independently assures minimum levels of quality and/or standards. They're a commercial airline!
If you have a look at the current Gulf Air ab-initio vacancies on their website, there is no suggestion that Ayla Aviation graduates stand a better chance of gaining employment with the carrier. There is also no suggestion that you must have gained your CPL/IR from a Gulf Air "approved" FTO.
Mike
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Thank you once again for allowing me to clarify.
1. We are two years old, with about 60 graduates, 40 of which did a bridge course. So the statistcs would be misleading. I will neverthless look into this and publish the findings.
2. Indeed it was an audit by Gulf Air, followed by an audit/inspection by the Bahrain Civil Aviation Authority. For some reason, you seem to be trying very hard to prove that we are misleading people, but i assure you we are not. I am happy to e-mail you copies of our approvals and put you in touch with Gulf Air if you wish to verify the facts.
3. I cannot comment on what Gulf Air puts on their web site, but like i said, anyone wishing to make a decision like this should do his/her homework, including get in touch with the airlines to ask about Ayla or any other academy.
Thank you once again Mike.
1. We are two years old, with about 60 graduates, 40 of which did a bridge course. So the statistcs would be misleading. I will neverthless look into this and publish the findings.
2. Indeed it was an audit by Gulf Air, followed by an audit/inspection by the Bahrain Civil Aviation Authority. For some reason, you seem to be trying very hard to prove that we are misleading people, but i assure you we are not. I am happy to e-mail you copies of our approvals and put you in touch with Gulf Air if you wish to verify the facts.
3. I cannot comment on what Gulf Air puts on their web site, but like i said, anyone wishing to make a decision like this should do his/her homework, including get in touch with the airlines to ask about Ayla or any other academy.
Thank you once again Mike.
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I used the same web site you did to convert, and GBP 74,000 came out to USD 109,000. I think you may have coverted the backwards, which might explain the $50,000 figure.
Yes, you are correct. Oman Air and Kuwait Airlines use AFT because they require a JAA license or equivalent. We do plan to get audited by both of these Airlines/Countries soon, and hopefully become approved by them. We are also working closely with CARC in Jordan who have taken a decision to convert to a JAA system. They will start with maintenance facilities, and work their way to Flight Schools.
I realize these things take time, but Ayla is in this for the long run. Our commitment and determinition to establish a world class academy gets stronger by the day.
"The strongest trees are the ones that encouter the highest winds".
Yes, you are correct. Oman Air and Kuwait Airlines use AFT because they require a JAA license or equivalent. We do plan to get audited by both of these Airlines/Countries soon, and hopefully become approved by them. We are also working closely with CARC in Jordan who have taken a decision to convert to a JAA system. They will start with maintenance facilities, and work their way to Flight Schools.
I realize these things take time, but Ayla is in this for the long run. Our commitment and determinition to establish a world class academy gets stronger by the day.
"The strongest trees are the ones that encouter the highest winds".
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mmatalla
I think it is you who has done the sums wrong.
From the AFT Website the total AFT Fees for a JAA ATPL with MCC are 51,665 Pounds. You have included 9041.38 Pounds for VAT which is not paid by overseas students. If you include CAA exam fees of 3690 Pounds, the total cost of the course to an overseas student is 55,345 Pounds excluding accomodation.
On the Ayla website your CPL/IR Course is advertised at 80,000US. At todays conversion rate of . 6675 pounds = 1 dollar, your course costs 80,000 x .6675 = 54,204 Pounds excluding accomodation.
You offer the MCC course at 2500 pounds which if taken up by an Ayla student comes to a total cost of 56,704 Pounds.
Some young trees get blown down!
I think it is you who has done the sums wrong.
From the AFT Website the total AFT Fees for a JAA ATPL with MCC are 51,665 Pounds. You have included 9041.38 Pounds for VAT which is not paid by overseas students. If you include CAA exam fees of 3690 Pounds, the total cost of the course to an overseas student is 55,345 Pounds excluding accomodation.
On the Ayla website your CPL/IR Course is advertised at 80,000US. At todays conversion rate of . 6675 pounds = 1 dollar, your course costs 80,000 x .6675 = 54,204 Pounds excluding accomodation.
You offer the MCC course at 2500 pounds which if taken up by an Ayla student comes to a total cost of 56,704 Pounds.
Some young trees get blown down!
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Ayla,
I don't think AFT should be used in comparison to AAA. Why? For the simple reason that AFT is a UK/JAA approved flight school - AAA on the other hand is not. Your comparing apples & pears.
A better comparison would be look at other FTOs that are also based in non-JAA member states such as Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada etc.
There are some fantastic flight schools in those countries with heritage, operational history, and proven track records.
All those non-JAA based FTOs issue ICAO licences by their respected national aviation authorities. How do the course fees of those academies compare to that of Ayla Aviation?
If the majority (60%) of Ayla Aviation's student body come from Bahrain, lets use the Bahraini Dinar as an example here. The Bahraini Dinar (BHD) is pegged to the US dollar.
Ayla's course fees = $90,000 USD which equates to BHD 34,000
What would 34,000 Bahraini Dinars buy you elsewhere in the world at today's exchange rates?
In Australia: 131,500 Australian Dollars
In New Zealand: 159,000 New Zealand Dollars
In South Africa: 876,428 South African Rand
In Canada: 110,200 Canadian Dollars
You'll probably find that if you take your 34,000 Dinars to any of those countries, you could train TWO pilots for the same price!
Now here is the big question. Does Ayla Aviation offer value for money?
I don't think AFT should be used in comparison to AAA. Why? For the simple reason that AFT is a UK/JAA approved flight school - AAA on the other hand is not. Your comparing apples & pears.
A better comparison would be look at other FTOs that are also based in non-JAA member states such as Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada etc.
There are some fantastic flight schools in those countries with heritage, operational history, and proven track records.
All those non-JAA based FTOs issue ICAO licences by their respected national aviation authorities. How do the course fees of those academies compare to that of Ayla Aviation?
If the majority (60%) of Ayla Aviation's student body come from Bahrain, lets use the Bahraini Dinar as an example here. The Bahraini Dinar (BHD) is pegged to the US dollar.
Ayla's course fees = $90,000 USD which equates to BHD 34,000
What would 34,000 Bahraini Dinars buy you elsewhere in the world at today's exchange rates?
In Australia: 131,500 Australian Dollars
In New Zealand: 159,000 New Zealand Dollars
In South Africa: 876,428 South African Rand
In Canada: 110,200 Canadian Dollars
You'll probably find that if you take your 34,000 Dinars to any of those countries, you could train TWO pilots for the same price!
Now here is the big question. Does Ayla Aviation offer value for money?
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Thank you Ayla and Mike for your comments. Yes, I believe Ayla Aviation Academy offers value for money, and i invite you to come visit us to see for yourselves. However, as i stated earlier, i prefer to avoid subjective dicussions about "value for money" or comparing "apples & pears" because these are personal opinions.
My advice remains the same as before - anyone interested in a career in aviation should do his/her homework first. PPRUNE is a rumours network, and may be misused by people with an axe to grind, so I encourage people to widen their scope and rely on themselves to make the right choice.
At Ayla, we have open days every week, and people are welcome to visit us, talk to our instrcutors, staff and cadets. Atlantic Flight Training in the UK is also owned by the same group, and it offers a JAA license, as well as MCC and JOT courses.
I remain happy to address any other factual questions.
My advice remains the same as before - anyone interested in a career in aviation should do his/her homework first. PPRUNE is a rumours network, and may be misused by people with an axe to grind, so I encourage people to widen their scope and rely on themselves to make the right choice.
At Ayla, we have open days every week, and people are welcome to visit us, talk to our instrcutors, staff and cadets. Atlantic Flight Training in the UK is also owned by the same group, and it offers a JAA license, as well as MCC and JOT courses.
I remain happy to address any other factual questions.
Join Date: May 2007
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Mike,
My aim was to point out that a student can can get a JAA ATPL licence for the same price as Ayla's CARC licence.
I use AFT figures because mmatalla cannot refute them as they are from his own company.
In my opinion better value can be obtained in a number of different schools around the world, especially with the current exchange rate.
I have avoided talking about quality because It is subjective , but cost between schools is not subjective, nor is the licence you are issued with.
My aim was to point out that a student can can get a JAA ATPL licence for the same price as Ayla's CARC licence.
I use AFT figures because mmatalla cannot refute them as they are from his own company.
In my opinion better value can be obtained in a number of different schools around the world, especially with the current exchange rate.
I have avoided talking about quality because It is subjective , but cost between schools is not subjective, nor is the licence you are issued with.
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Dear KFTW;
Thank you for your inquiry. About 50% of our Instructors are JAA licenced and we do hire JAA FI's. Please send your resume to [email protected] and we would be happy to review it.
Thank you for your inquiry. About 50% of our Instructors are JAA licenced and we do hire JAA FI's. Please send your resume to [email protected] and we would be happy to review it.
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Our philosophy is that cost is subjective when it comes to education. Ayla's moto is "Pilots Empowered", and our basic premise is that we train captains, not just pilots. The difference, of course, is leadership.
So in addition to our comprehensive and rigorous Ground and Flight School syllabi, we work on developing the "soft skills" of the cadets. We have a full time leadership consultant on staff, and we arrange for regular sports activities such as soccer, volleyball & other water sports (please see our monthly newsletter on our web site).
We also have an extremely diverse group of instructors from the UK, USA, Spain, Pakistan, Jordan and Canada, which benifits our cadets. This, of course, is in addition to the fact that we provide free laptops & wireless internet access throughout our facilities.
Of course, I must mention the fact that we have the most modern fleet of aircraft in Jordan.
Quote of the week: "If you believe education is expensive, try ignorance"....
So in addition to our comprehensive and rigorous Ground and Flight School syllabi, we work on developing the "soft skills" of the cadets. We have a full time leadership consultant on staff, and we arrange for regular sports activities such as soccer, volleyball & other water sports (please see our monthly newsletter on our web site).
We also have an extremely diverse group of instructors from the UK, USA, Spain, Pakistan, Jordan and Canada, which benifits our cadets. This, of course, is in addition to the fact that we provide free laptops & wireless internet access throughout our facilities.
Of course, I must mention the fact that we have the most modern fleet of aircraft in Jordan.
Quote of the week: "If you believe education is expensive, try ignorance"....
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mmatalla
Surely the cost of a course is not subjective, it is a fixed determinable amount. What you refer to is value!
I thought you wanted to avoid subjective discussions about value for money!
If you want to do quotes "All that glitters is not gold"
Surely the cost of a course is not subjective, it is a fixed determinable amount. What you refer to is value!
I thought you wanted to avoid subjective discussions about value for money!
If you want to do quotes "All that glitters is not gold"
Last edited by Ayla; 29th Dec 2008 at 03:46.
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well-spoken Ayla 
Mr. Atalla..the problem is that when it comes to reputation, people never pick up the choice that the opinions are split over it. It becomes rather risky for some1 to go for that kind of choice, which will almost look like a big gamble, knowing that the thing is about 1) huge amount of money to be spent 2) making a decision of one's life time (at first place by joining the unstable airliners career, and then selecting the FTO to get the qualifactions that would represent the main asset for the unexperienced pilot).
As you have said Mr. Atalla, the history of your FTO is only a couple of years old. You should be happy with being approved by GF and Bahrain's CAA...that's fine..but in real world it would be so unrealistic to judge the overall rating for AAA relying on just 2 years of ups and downs. You might argue the word "downs", and that's understood coz it's your own baby at the end.
If I were you, I would first admit that are/were many system flaws have lead to the negativity about AAA. You simply can bring in the proficient people who would really want to help, and let go those who are seriously damaging the reputation and cannot offer your students enough of the flying thing! Only and only then, it's gonna be a real business for you Mister!
Walk the walk and not just talk the talk.
Mr. Atalla..the problem is that when it comes to reputation, people never pick up the choice that the opinions are split over it. It becomes rather risky for some1 to go for that kind of choice, which will almost look like a big gamble, knowing that the thing is about 1) huge amount of money to be spent 2) making a decision of one's life time (at first place by joining the unstable airliners career, and then selecting the FTO to get the qualifactions that would represent the main asset for the unexperienced pilot).
As you have said Mr. Atalla, the history of your FTO is only a couple of years old. You should be happy with being approved by GF and Bahrain's CAA...that's fine..but in real world it would be so unrealistic to judge the overall rating for AAA relying on just 2 years of ups and downs. You might argue the word "downs", and that's understood coz it's your own baby at the end.
If I were you, I would first admit that are/were many system flaws have lead to the negativity about AAA. You simply can bring in the proficient people who would really want to help, and let go those who are seriously damaging the reputation and cannot offer your students enough of the flying thing! Only and only then, it's gonna be a real business for you Mister!
Walk the walk and not just talk the talk.