Emirates Hold Pool
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Finnaly reason
Thanks God people crying for facts and numbers. Thanks to "What_Goes_Up" and "Oblaaspop".
Offer alone facts against the bashing team arguments and you are believed to be an EK Manager, for Christ sake.
PS: "5star", what a stupid post regarding this incident.
It's bad when things change for the worse, but this is going to continue.
US carriers had their salaries lowered in agreements to prevent more jobs to be shed in more than one occasion. T&C are eroding everywhere in the world.
For those who still don't get it, and believe this happens only at EK, I suggest a good reading: The book "Who Moved My Cheese?" from "Spencer Johnson" http://ee.sharif.edu/~commi/Comm1_files/WhoMovedMyCheese.pdf
You are taking what's been promised for granted and for good. This does not apply to the modern world anymore. Does not matter how loud you yell.
Offer alone facts against the bashing team arguments and you are believed to be an EK Manager, for Christ sake.
PS: "5star", what a stupid post regarding this incident.
It's bad when things change for the worse, but this is going to continue.
US carriers had their salaries lowered in agreements to prevent more jobs to be shed in more than one occasion. T&C are eroding everywhere in the world.
For those who still don't get it, and believe this happens only at EK, I suggest a good reading: The book "Who Moved My Cheese?" from "Spencer Johnson" http://ee.sharif.edu/~commi/Comm1_files/WhoMovedMyCheese.pdf
You are taking what's been promised for granted and for good. This does not apply to the modern world anymore. Does not matter how loud you yell.
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cosmo
You did it again! You're sustaining our point, brilliantly.
1. "in agreements" versus just "imposing" new conditions. To most civilised people this makes a very distinct difference.
2. "to prevent more jobs to be shed" versus the "sacking" culture developped by EK lately. You end up with less employees, but allthough you might feel fear to lose your job in both systems, the latter shoves this fear right down onto your daily work and is completely arbitrary, not even evoking safety....
We do get it, believe me. But such arguments are silly. Just because waterboarding was used in Guantanamo, it does not make it less despicable for Scotland Yard to use it as well. It's a civil right that anyone can defend himself irrespective to what happened to others.
Such a quote is not only fatalistic, but worse, it's cynical, because it therefore legitimates deterioration. Reminds me of Dick's hogwash in some way.
You did it again! You're sustaining our point, brilliantly.
US carriers had their salaries lowered in agreements to prevent more jobs to be shed in more than one occasion
1. "in agreements" versus just "imposing" new conditions. To most civilised people this makes a very distinct difference.
2. "to prevent more jobs to be shed" versus the "sacking" culture developped by EK lately. You end up with less employees, but allthough you might feel fear to lose your job in both systems, the latter shoves this fear right down onto your daily work and is completely arbitrary, not even evoking safety....
For those who still don't get it, and believe this happens only at EK
We do get it, believe me. But such arguments are silly. Just because waterboarding was used in Guantanamo, it does not make it less despicable for Scotland Yard to use it as well. It's a civil right that anyone can defend himself irrespective to what happened to others.
This does not apply to the modern world anymore
Such a quote is not only fatalistic, but worse, it's cynical, because it therefore legitimates deterioration. Reminds me of Dick's hogwash in some way.
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Pool and bashers
About the mentioned "agreements" back in US, they went like this: "You all will agree with that or we'll fire you. Everybody happy?" End of agreement.
The result is the same. Don't fool yourself, pool. You are asking for lubricant.
So ridiculous to hear a grown man crying: "Oh, they don't have the right to do this to us. They are sacking us." Well, I guess they own the place and the carrier, you don't, so they do what they want. You don't like it, then get out.
I am not being fatalistic. Look around you, man. That's what is happening.
This is a political world. Even with no Union here, organized groups of pilots eventually get in touch wit the management to expose our points and diminish(not to stop) the impact of some decisions on us.
Why it is good to fly here?
The group of pilots is experienced and skilled, planes are not only good looking, but, most of all, well maintained. We fly to great places while EK takes care of most of our expenses back home. Home is Dubai while you are here and you can live pretty well even as an FO, even with children, if you don't have to send money abroad to pay old bills.
Managers are managers everywhere. To expect compassion is foolish.
Low morale is epidemic and you are spreading it more without balancing good and bad things.
My morale is far from being low and I am sorry you live in fear around here, Pool.
The result is the same. Don't fool yourself, pool. You are asking for lubricant.
So ridiculous to hear a grown man crying: "Oh, they don't have the right to do this to us. They are sacking us." Well, I guess they own the place and the carrier, you don't, so they do what they want. You don't like it, then get out.
I am not being fatalistic. Look around you, man. That's what is happening.
This is a political world. Even with no Union here, organized groups of pilots eventually get in touch wit the management to expose our points and diminish(not to stop) the impact of some decisions on us.
Why it is good to fly here?
The group of pilots is experienced and skilled, planes are not only good looking, but, most of all, well maintained. We fly to great places while EK takes care of most of our expenses back home. Home is Dubai while you are here and you can live pretty well even as an FO, even with children, if you don't have to send money abroad to pay old bills.
Managers are managers everywhere. To expect compassion is foolish.
Low morale is epidemic and you are spreading it more without balancing good and bad things.
My morale is far from being low and I am sorry you live in fear around here, Pool.
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Dont Be Fooled By Some Imbecils And Stay Away From This Place,the Arshole Of The World!!!
Just Ask Yourself " Do I Want To Be Treated As An Idiot And Loose All My Rights? "
Unless You Are Desperate.. I Hope The Answer Is No!!
Just Ask Yourself " Do I Want To Be Treated As An Idiot And Loose All My Rights? "
Unless You Are Desperate.. I Hope The Answer Is No!!
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There's one of the more senior Boeing captains here who calls Emirates "The Fountain of Youth" -because every day you come to work, they treat you like a sixteen year old.
(Oh, and cosmo? My guess is your name is Brian. Either Brian M. or Brian M, one 'm' being the measurement we used to use for distance before kilometres came into general use and the other being the major river in Australia.)
(Oh, and cosmo? My guess is your name is Brian. Either Brian M. or Brian M, one 'm' being the measurement we used to use for distance before kilometres came into general use and the other being the major river in Australia.)
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Good posts ,
what just makes me wonder is the next thing and all my EK work mates would agree,
Our contracts means nothing these days and is also melting away everyday , scared to open my email these days , what will give way next.
So my question with a melting contract and the fact that if you have not done 2 years or more now, you will sit for many years to come in the right seat.Why will guys with high time and big jets want to come here? Also why would EK need to keep the req that high as you will sit right for years so even 2000 hrs will do on RJs? After 5 years or more you will have the hrs and experience, I mean experienced guys would want to take their experience elswere , where they will be looked as valueble employees.
If its for carreer progression you might be better off with Qatar as the are smaller and still growing , same as EY.
Look if you dont have a job i understand , but if you have a good one , Think twice !
I am just thinking out loud here , what is attractive to EK ? new planes and super work mates , but for the rest ?
what just makes me wonder is the next thing and all my EK work mates would agree,
Our contracts means nothing these days and is also melting away everyday , scared to open my email these days , what will give way next.
So my question with a melting contract and the fact that if you have not done 2 years or more now, you will sit for many years to come in the right seat.Why will guys with high time and big jets want to come here? Also why would EK need to keep the req that high as you will sit right for years so even 2000 hrs will do on RJs? After 5 years or more you will have the hrs and experience, I mean experienced guys would want to take their experience elswere , where they will be looked as valueble employees.
If its for carreer progression you might be better off with Qatar as the are smaller and still growing , same as EY.
Look if you dont have a job i understand , but if you have a good one , Think twice !
I am just thinking out loud here , what is attractive to EK ? new planes and super work mates , but for the rest ?
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Some of the more recent negative posts are coming from FO's that have had a pleasure of the Mang Meeting . They are pissed at the fact that they now realize their upgrade in going to be alot longer than they planned 5-7 years and maybe more. This year @ 50 new hires, 30ish upgrades AB and 16 upgrades 777. plus they(all of us) are being told dont like it leave by AS.Ed.AAR and dont screw up
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How can they have 16 upgrades on the 777 if there are 15 777 arriving?
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Upgrades & working here
Let's be honest you should only entertain coming to EK if you either have a job that is really really bad , you need big plane hours , you are redundant or you really are in a big hole for some reason or another.
It really was a great company to work for but that has changed sometime ago.
Whilst the middle management ie AS, ED & MM are reasonable men AAD will still attempt to drive this great company into the ground. If TC (who regardless of what people say as to his ability to run a great company say) were to retire then AAD would destroy this place.
If only His Highness read this & he took note we'd see a different response I believe!
It really was a great company to work for but that has changed sometime ago.
Whilst the middle management ie AS, ED & MM are reasonable men AAD will still attempt to drive this great company into the ground. If TC (who regardless of what people say as to his ability to run a great company say) were to retire then AAD would destroy this place.
If only His Highness read this & he took note we'd see a different response I believe!
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Just Ask Yourself " Do I Want To Be Treated As An Idiot And Loose All My Rights? "
Unless You Are Desperate.. I Hope The Answer Is No!!
Unless You Are Desperate.. I Hope The Answer Is No!!
There's one of the more senior Boeing captains here who calls Emirates "The Fountain of Youth" -because every day you come to work, they treat you like a sixteen year old.
I am just thinking out loud here , what is attractive to EK ? new planes and super work mates , but for the rest ?
I never said I aprove T&C erosion(Who would?), but I strongly disagree the grade attributed to EK. Specially comming from people who clearly know nothing about other companies in the world.
Used to be better I say it again, but still worth to come.
Maybe you are tired of Dubai/EK(your problem), but you can't overlook the few mentioned benefits that are still offered around here in comparison to other carriers(and I didn't mentioned carriers offering jobs).
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White Knight
And don't mix the EPC up with Emirates - its by the pilots (and many thanks for their continued hard graft) for the pilots. Nothing to do with EK...
Is that possible that you are so dumb that you don't get that it's the company huge highlighted mark that allow us, pilots to maintain EPC and enjoy all its great benefits and not the other way around? Maybe we should change from EPC to ABPC(Anonimous Basher Pilots Club) and see what happens...
And once again. EPC, regardless of who runs it, is a major benefit we all have here and a very attractive point to potential new joiners, but this, my friend, you failed to stress out. On purpose.
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Someone in EK management got allocated some office time to counter the negatives on this forum... The tone in his replies is going crescendo, so I suspect they must be having a problem in HR. Pprune is the last thing we have to let people know in the real world (I consider Burundi not part) what's going on here. Cosmo, you should maybe try to liase with Eticr*p and put this forum on the blocked list.
EK used to be a good employer but that was 3-4 years ago. The crackdown on ALL crew, the deep cuts in our pay and the stalling of our benefits package (ask any non-aviation expat in Dubai what he gets and you will fall off your chair) makes EK now very AVERAGE in the industry.
For most of us, living here comes at a cost, and most of us want to see some financial award for having our famlies have to live over here. I have not forgotten that where I come from medical is TOP and almost free, education is top and cheap and people have good state pensions.
If you have no job, sure you should have a look around here. But do read the numereous ME forum posts.
Especially those who have a happy family and a decent job might think twice before they sail over. There is not a single guy I flew with the last 8 months who said he was pleased with the direction our company is taking. And the fear factor which our management threw in last 3 months did NOT help either. Sacking an FO who was doing his training, that was a nice one EK, you should be proud of yourselves.
Morale is at an all time low. And if we make losses the coming months get ready for some more lashes.
EK used to be a good employer but that was 3-4 years ago. The crackdown on ALL crew, the deep cuts in our pay and the stalling of our benefits package (ask any non-aviation expat in Dubai what he gets and you will fall off your chair) makes EK now very AVERAGE in the industry.
For most of us, living here comes at a cost, and most of us want to see some financial award for having our famlies have to live over here. I have not forgotten that where I come from medical is TOP and almost free, education is top and cheap and people have good state pensions.
If you have no job, sure you should have a look around here. But do read the numereous ME forum posts.
Especially those who have a happy family and a decent job might think twice before they sail over. There is not a single guy I flew with the last 8 months who said he was pleased with the direction our company is taking. And the fear factor which our management threw in last 3 months did NOT help either. Sacking an FO who was doing his training, that was a nice one EK, you should be proud of yourselves.
Morale is at an all time low. And if we make losses the coming months get ready for some more lashes.
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BM aka Cosmo. You really are an ass aren't you 
The EMIRATES Pilots Club, only has association by name, it has the square root of FA to do with the company. Its run by the PILOTS for the PILOTS.
How much extra do EK pay you to be their whipping boy???
EK used to be pretty good when I joined Habibi, but now is just another job.
SyB
The EMIRATES Pilots Club, only has association by name, it has the square root of FA to do with the company. Its run by the PILOTS for the PILOTS. How much extra do EK pay you to be their whipping boy???
EK used to be pretty good when I joined Habibi, but now is just another job.
SyB
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What rest? Free housing? Two way Audi pick up? Good accomodation for free? Zero income tax? School fees allowances? Rotating bid system? Outstanding hotels? Incredible destinations where you can find and buy things cheaper than in Dubai? Out of the chart maintenance and onboard technology? 42 days annual leave? Emirates club card and benefits? Reserved tickets for family for annual leave trips? Safe and modern city to live? Health system? WHAT REST YOU MEAN, MORON? Where in the world you find this? These things are still there.
The Audi pick up and drop off is great- but it also gets you to work about 45 minutes before your day legally starts. That is 45 minutes of your time the company is getting for nothing, and it makes a mockery of the FTL rules.
There is no income tax, but there are plenty of hidden, and not so hidden, taxes in Dubai.
The school fee allowance only covers a maximum of 90% of your school fees, not including any out of school activities. The allowance didn't go up this year, but the school fees did. By about 12%.
The rotating bid system would work well if it was left alone but ask anybody about manual insertions before and after leave or in the middle of blocks of days off. It has happened to me too often to be coincidence.
Hotels- most are good, some are terrible. Not many are outstanding. Yes, you can buy thing on layovers cheaper than in Dubai, which just goes to show how expensive Dubai is now, tax free or not.
Engineering are now as over worked as any other department, although they do an amazing job with what they have available.
42 days annual leave, but only if you can take it. A limited maximum number of days off in any one block, so you can't take it all at once, but still only one annual leave ticket a year. And the company has recently taken to deciding that "America" is one destination so if you don't live near an online destination you pay for your own domestic flights.
The health care from the clinic remains, mercifully, good but remember you pay for the health insurance of your dependants by salary deduction and there is no way out of this, even if your wife has health cover through her own job.
The EPC has nothing to do with the company so I won't even go there.
Not one of the things Cosmo has mentioned has improved in the last five years. There is a definite trend emerging.
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Debate
BigGeordie, thanks for engaging in a debate. Item by item. The goal here is to provide more realistic information for the new joiners, putting differents points of view on the table.
ima birdbrain, learn from that. You don't have arguments, stay out.
Sheikh Your Bootie and 5star, lets assume then, I work for the management, I am Brian or Helena, whatever. This forum is the perfect place to debate arguments, facts and numbers. If good things that are still present do not satisfy you anymore, that's your problem.
5star
Most of them have been fired and had to run away. And just to remind you. You are a driver.
AVERAGE? You certainly don't mean aviation industry, otherwise name the companies providing similar packages right now. And also companies with similar packages that are hiring. And also companies that don't have management problems. This is bollocks...
But probably you forgot why you came here and why you are still here.
Yes, of course, smartest thing you said. Pretty obvious, though.
But I wonder. When you get togheter with crews of other international airlines in pubs and bars around the world you feel like you are the underdogs? I don't think so...
ima birdbrain, learn from that. You don't have arguments, stay out.
Sheikh Your Bootie and 5star, lets assume then, I work for the management, I am Brian or Helena, whatever. This forum is the perfect place to debate arguments, facts and numbers. If good things that are still present do not satisfy you anymore, that's your problem.
5star
ask any non-aviation expat in Dubai what he gets and you will fall off your chair
makes EK now very AVERAGE in the industry.
I have not forgotten that where I come from medical is TOP and almost free, education is top and cheap and people have good state pensions.
Especially those who have a happy family and a decent job might think twice before they sail over.
But I wonder. When you get togheter with crews of other international airlines in pubs and bars around the world you feel like you are the underdogs? I don't think so...
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There's no need to lie, specially in an annonimous forum, and I never said you are lying about your complains. I complain also. Things been better for sure. I've talked about this negative trend already. It's happening everywhere, but everywhere else is sinking faster. Do not compare EK with something you can't have anymore.
But lets be realistics. These items, are not present in most companies in the world. Even now. And we are in the middle of a major crisis. Comon, you still have a sound job, above the average.
Check this out:
ATW Daily News
But lets be realistics. These items, are not present in most companies in the world. Even now. And we are in the middle of a major crisis. Comon, you still have a sound job, above the average.
Check this out:
ATW Daily News
Last edited by cosmodrift; 14th Jun 2009 at 21:57.
Originally Posted by cosmodrift
And just to remind you. You are a driver.
Don't think I'll bother now. To be honest the massive pay cut I'd have to take sealed the decision. Shame - wouldn't have minded the jump.
