Working a day off in EK

[Left Coaster]

Sorry to hear that the goal posts were moved (again!) it doesn't really make for a happy time. It sounds like EK is grinding it's higher cost employees in order to weather this current fuel issue. And I wonder how much cash is at hand for all those deliveries that start soon. Watch out, they WILL be after you for more...word is that you guys will have to foot your DEWA bills before too long. (BTW Dubai Electric and Water Authority )

[millerscourt]

Left Coaster

EK is probably going the same way as GF as we used to have free Utilities and transport to work and over the years it all went. Got an allowance instead which never got increased! One of the reasons I left over 10 years ago.

[Dumpvalve]

dungfunnel,
Thanks for putting us in the picture, wrt your T&Cs. Now I can understand why everybody's queuing up to get into the average UK charter company. I guess the lifestyle must be hard to top as well, what with all those exotic destinations and ample time off.

[desert_knight]

Yawn.......once again, so much hot air.

Many of us here at EK in Management grades (and yes, Pilots really are in Management grades) are expected to work as required without overtime or time of in lieu - it is assumed to be part of the package.

We all work pretty hard in this company, long days and weekends when required, shift work, etc, etc. You are not the only group for whom conditions change or who have contributed to the success of the company. You do however seem to be the only group who talk of infantile tactics to try and "teach the company a lesson".

Market forces will always dictate what rewards you can expect. At the present time the market is in favour of the employer, that may well change, but for now your position is weak.

If life and conditions are so intolerable for you personally then find somewhere else to go (if you can) otherwise please try and restrain yourselves from ranting like a spoiled child.

To those who think high oil prices are good for the Dubai Government and therefore EK because Dubai is an "oil rich" Emirate, then think again, they are not..........that is the Emirate down the road!

It also never ceases to amaze me how little some crew seem know about the company they work for, expected aircraft deliveries, Flt Ops management structure etc. Try looking beyond your roster and pay packet sometimes.

From a lowly (non pilot) management grade, been here 9 years in EK and still enjoying the challenge of working in a growing airline.

[Shake]

DK...

So what am I supposed to know about EK that makes it OK to change my contract T&Cs at will? Who are you you tell me that it is a childish reaction to be angered by the constant erosion in pay and life style?

Such an arrogant stand point can only come from 9 years in an 'expanding airline' stuck on the inside. You should try and get out a bit and get the real sense of the frustration and anger felt from the 'kids' outside.

And yes, if I can leave I will, but as you may be aware if you open a window, it is not as simple as just walking away. It will take a little time to do, but if things remain as they are I am sure I will not be the only one on the way out and your next few years may be spent in a contracting airline.

[tic]

You EK guys are your own worst enemies. The biggest whingers on Pprune, maybe the planet,seem to be EK drivers. Look at the Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi workers,etc etc etc working in that sun all day, then you can complain. They have very little choice, you do. With a rapidly expanding airline, do you really thing your management has it in for you? Do they want to see you shove off to "greener "pastures? I dought it. You all have a skill that most of them don't, they might not like it, but it's a fact. Without you, and the others that make up any airline, they wouldn't have a job either, so it's not in their interest to make life difficult for you.Maybe they have the BIG picture and you don't.
Grow up all of you,you are in the best airline in the Middle East, you should rightly be proud of that. If you have a collective problem, take it to the right people. It would be in their interests to listen. If you treat them with respect, you may get some coming your way. I am not Management by the way.
tic

[145qrh]

DK,

What difference does management structure or deliveries make to me a line pilot??? I get a roster- I fly and fly .......I get a contract......get paid accordingly ,, unless of coarse they screw up ,, nah..... never happen!!!!

DEC's , A343's, Overtime payments,, etc etc etc.....


DF,

You made the choice not to come, get over it.....even with our changes I would rather be where I am as opposed to where you think you are. The UK charter market is not what you would call secure,, Excalibur,Britannia,Airtours,Air Europe,Inter-European,Airways Cymru,Paramount ,UK Leisure et all,,, ring any bells.

[145qrh]

Why should I not voice my opinion???? You seem to be the one with the issues,,,,,,if you are so happy with UK CHarter flying .do it and keep your interest in the ME by reading not posting,,,you arent bound_for_dubai in disguise are you ??? your posts resemble that of a rambling teenager.

As for anyone else's opinion on EK or the ME we have made our choice, you yours so as I said get over it , you may have some valid points but it's the way you say them. If you think you live in a democracy ,, well maybe in theory you do,as for workers rights, ahh the famous BAlpa, OK if you work for BA otherwise give youself a 1% payrise .If you screw up in the UK you will end up in front of a great British Sun Reading Jury. Now tell me again about workers rights. Here at least we know where we stand you on the other hand you have no idea .

I can just see it now Tony Blairs book on the Great British Democracy," the world was falling apart round our ears, terrorists were behind every lampost, we made it our goal to put and end to Fox hunting.......all at only 1/4 mill per MP ..what value."

You are at least correct about the Aussies and Canucks. On one hand a bunch of Europeans 8000 miles away, the others failed Americans..........only kidding mate or pal

Some heated language removed 4HP

[Pontious]

DV

I've been here 18 months and I love it! Nobody comes to EK from the UK for the Bunce. It's a question of quality of life. I came here to get away from crappy weather, tax, crappy promotion prospects, tax, a crappy government, tax, crappy services, tax, miserable b******s on late trains, tax, road rage,tax, the whordes of juvenile delinquents of a jilted generation, tax, same old Med and Caribbean routes, tax, same old routine, tax, whinging b******s, tax oh and dwindling pensions. Enuff said.

[desert_knight]

There is nothing wrong with being upset over what you see as being a change to your T&Cs..........you just don't ned to rant and rave to the world about how hard done by you think are.

My standard of living here is still pretty good compared to how it was in the UK, even with cost of living rises probably outstripping pay rises here. The flight crew I see and mix with don't seem to be suffering too much either.

Still, I have yet to work at an Airline where SOME of the crew didn't think they were over worked, under payed and unloved.

If you want to know about real changes in T&Cs, look at American, United, Delta, US Air, etc.

EK a contracting airline? I think not.

[Dumpvalve]

dungfunnel,
What was that all about? Here I am, singing the UK charter market's praises and you get all defensive, like. You don't have to justify your choice of career path to anybody - we all know exactly how good it is.

[Vagrant]

Hello men

DK is right. EK is only now doing, what most airlines have been doing for the last 4 years, i.e. tightening their belt. 9/11, Sars came and went and affected alot of airlines terribly, some fatally. Few, EK being one, were somehow unaffected, and some say, even benefitted. Fuel prices however, attack everyone's bottom line.

I'd already completed half my career, when I joined EK not to long ago, so I can say with some authority that out there is .....SH!TE. This is still the best job going, in most respects, and there are much worse places to be trying to earn a living, than Dubai. To come on a public forum and whinge, makes us look like a bunch of spoiled brats, to those thousands who have taken serious paycuts over the last few years, or even worse, to those thousands that lost their jobs. Grow up guys!

I fully expect the EK bubble to burst sometime in the future, but until then, I'll quitely eek out a living here, knowing that it is one of the very few places left that we can do it to the standard it was in the past. For those who think differently, please have a look out there and see what's available and comparable, and then let us all know. Halas!

V

[Crazycanuk]

bat dung,

"As for where i am,well not surrounded by whinging aussies and naieve canadians"

If it wasn't for people like the canadians you would be speaking german. pal. Have some respect.

Desert_Knight.

"There is nothing wrong with being upset over what you see as being a change to your T&Cs..........you just don't ned to rant and rave to the world about how hard done by you think are."

Believe it or not if we speak about these things in the traditional ways we would get fired. This thread is not to air our laundry to the world, it is to comunicate with our co-workers without fear.

I think most will agree that we have been shafted. We need real ideas and then some way of making them happen. C'mon guys there must be somthing we can do as individuals.

crazy.

[ahmedette]

A couple of Desert_Knight’s comments extracted from past posts reveal his true feelings about pilots:

“I know that Pilots aren't the brightest in the world……….”.

And this really infantile little gem:

“Now if we really want to improve safety how about gettig rid of those REALLY dangerous bits of kit on aircraft.......flightdeck crew! All the reports I read seem to suggest they are the prime cause of accidents…… “

Finally:

“I am a Flight Simulator Engineer for an International Airline…….”

DK, I’d stick to flight simulators, at least they are anchored to the ground. I wouldn’t want you in charge of ANYTHING that actually leaves the earth’s surface.

DK’s posts contain few facts and reek of an undercurrent of pilot dislike. Or…..do I detect just a faint note of jealousy?

[Shake]

Thanks Ahmedette...

Was going to waste more time on DK until I saw your post and saw what he really is.

Anyway, as for Prune being the primary means of venting: what other forum or mechanism is there in EK where GENUINE concerns can be aired? There is NONE. The last time grievences were aired in an 'open' public forum some lost their profit share while others had not too veiled threats that it was unwise to give thier opinions...anyway, no more pilot meetings since.

This is not the forum to do our dirty laundry, but with all other doors closed, it is the only one.

Surely someone in real management can get the hint? All of this continues to be so mishandled to the detriment to both the pilots and the company. It would be in all our interests to take these 'discussions' out of the public forum and into a more private and constructive enviroment...and I don't mean another pilots meeting...they do not work. Changes will have to be made on a more fundamental level IF we are to move forward.

[crapflying]

Hello everyone,

To answer a question about labour laws, I have it in black and white from my solicitor, prior to leaving home to come to Dubai. I am protected by my country's laws since UAE does not have labour laws. There have been cases even in Emirates, and in all cases the employee has won. It does help if Emirates flys to your own country, as you can force them to pay up then...
In a recent case a DEC from a US company was fired, and he has since taken Emirates to court for unlawfull termination of contract. He will probably win the case as the US courts will apply the US labour laws.
T&Cs in Emirates cannot be compared with T&Cs in other major carriers, for many reasons. Emirates salaries to begin with, even with all company accomadation, school fees etc, does not compare to salaries paid in the major carriers of the world. If you look at the American carriers, they make 3 times what we do, and they have a pension in the end and not just a provident fund. If you look in Europe BA, Airfrance, etc, they have double our salaries and a pension in the end. Even with all the cuts in place in Europe and the US it still comes down to more money for them, compared to what we make.
Emirates at present, and in the past has been making profits, so there is no need to lower T&Cs in anticipation of hard times ahead. In the same thinking, we should get a pay rise in anticipation of good times ahead. The other carriers are in the red, big time so they need to do something to survive. Emirates on the other hand is a growing airline with lots of cash in hand, and big profits despite of all the current problems, exactly because it has a lower cost base.
Should management decide to save money, they could do it in areas of operation, fuel policy which is non existant (I do not meen cost index and tankering) but rather operational practices such as APU usage, starting engines, etc... Utilization of A/C in a better way and many other things.
I just believe that some idiot in the office thinking in a very amateur way decided to take a swing at pilots T&Cs just to satisfy his bosses that he is doing something. If he did not do this he would have to actualy work and think of how to minimize costs the real way, which does require actualy for them to earn their living.
What we can do is nothing, because there is no unity. Just enjoy the weather and the golf or sailing you do.
I am sure though that what management have not quantified is good will, as this cannot be quatified, but hey I am just a pilot, so what do I know?
Cheers

[Dune]

dungfunnel:

I appreciate your input and thought you made some very good points.

I am personally envious that you are in an airline at home (as many other career pilots are throughout the world) where you enjoy the job and feel you are being fairly rewarded for your efforts. I felt like that when I joined Emirates years ago (I liked both the place and the job, hence the reason I came) but the past few years of crap have sure changed my mind about this place and this job (hence the reason I am potentially looking elsewhere). I think you guys need to cut him a little slack; I wish I felt the same working at EK as he does for his airline. I think we all wish we felt the same about our respective employer and position, irrespective of whom you work for.


desert_knight

You my friend have little credibility on this site. We have no idea what sort of "management" you pretend to be, which department you pretend to be involved with or if you even have a basic knowledge of flight operations. Please enlighten us as to your position, your contract and the cuts to your pay and working conditions you have experienced over the past 3 years (since I feel it is important we share the pain together) and your credibility might improve.

As to your comment; "you just don't ned to rant and rave to the world about how hard done by you think are" (by the way, direct cut and paste of your post; suggest you "management" types invest in an English course and a spell checker)" you need to understand (which you would if you worked in flt ops as it is common knowledge amongst not only the pilots by all management types) that our EVPE&O has severed all forms of communication with us other than through written Flight Crew Notices. He does not have the courage or the ability to "manage"; to address his employees in an open forum of discussion and explain why this is taking place. And since we do not have a union or any form of credible upper management to voice our concerns to (that they in turn might present to the EVPE&O for consideration), this forum is the only source we have. It is not rant, it is a way for us to discuss subjects of a critical nature to our employment with this company and at the same time let the rest of the aviation community know what is behind the shiny veneer that is called a flying job with Emirates.

To those of you who are not pilots and who sit and read these threads, please remember pilots deal with facts. They are trained over many years of experience to react to situations as they develop. They do not operate well in a vacuum, they need facts to deal with problems. The term used is "situational awareness" and to a pilot there is nothing more disconcerting than having things going on around him in the aircraft that he either does not understand (because he doesn't have all the facts to allow him to understand what is happening) or actions that are out of his control (and therefore he is unable to react to the situation). Hence you will see a common theme in almost every comment from a pilot; a need to know what is going on (to understand fully the facts) and a need to do something about it. That is what all this "ranting" is about as information is not being passed from the company to us. Emirates pilots are trying to share as much information as possible to develop a picture of what is happening around them and then to do something about it.

The "do something about it" might take many different forms. Some might result in career moves to other airlines, some might result in attempts to mitigate the damage caused by the changes (for example, now that many flight duties are not to be credited (such as deadheading or min credit for short flights) would it not make sense to fly as fast as you can (to hell with the fuel burn) to try to limit the amount of time you have to work for free? Of course I would never suggest this ), some might be attempts at structural reform (such as dissuading new f/o's from coming, thereby putting "personnel" pressure on flt ops as it tries to expand), and some might just be vengeful backlash.

Bottom line is pilots are not trained to sit on their hands and do nothing and they WILL react.


ahmedette

Thanks for the info; was putting my post to DK together and didn't see your info. Makes it clear now.

[4HolerPoler]

Post of the Week Award to Dune Great prose sir; a message succinctly and deftly put forward.

4HP

[fullforward]

Indeed!

Direct to the point!...

[Dumpvalve]

dungfunnel,
There's a lot you don't understand correctly - the exchange rate is just the tip of the iceberg...