DEC's at EK
Join Date: May 2005
Location: dubai
Posts: 375
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having now met potential DECs travelling on the NY flights as well as a few now in Dubai and one persistent and rather annnoying F/O in the crew room in KIX, I have reached some conclusions. Yes this is based on small numbers but I also have heard rather consistent tales from individuals flying with DEC's as well.
It has become clear we are not receiving the 'cream of the crop' in any respect.
When you walk away from a conversation with a potential employee of your company and think to yourself, 'this is one ODD individual' OR 'he's a blatant liar', you have to wonder about the recruiting policies. Clearly those individuals who many would consider as someone great to work with, competent and a general bonus to the company are not that interested in coming to EK. Recruiting is obviously scraping the bottom of the barrel with these latest additions. I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THAT THESE DEC's REPRESENT THE AVERAGE AMERICAN PILOT!!!!!!!! Then again, considering the low percentage of eligible DEC's and the high numbers available, I think I am correct in my assessment that those coming to EK are not representative of the US.
Take Captain America as an example. How on earth could someone of his character squeak thru the recruitment process and then be allowed and even encouraged to behave as he has?
I hate to label any group but the vast majority of DEC's i'm met from the USA are not decent people. And just to clarify my POV, I have no bone to pick with the Yanks, aside from voting in GWB...... TWICE!!!!!!!!!!!!, but aside from that i have alot of respect for many of them. I also have a lot of disrespect for SOME of them but that might be said of any nationality. It just seems to me that we are receiving the worst of the lot with our present policies.
Take a look at the big picture. We have a extremely small percentage of potential DEC's coming from the USA at the moment. These few have decided that in spite of every indication that life here is not as advertised, they have still elected to come. Some are even giving up employment that most can only dream about, totally out of fear of the future in my opinion. And based on my observations the ones i have met have generally been somewhat quirky to say the least. (no, i don't for one minute think i am always correct in character assessment) But I have yet to meet an American DEC who i thought was a good guy. I have met several Yanks at EK who i think are really nice, personable, competent and have integrity, but not one of those has been a DEC. It just makes me wonder.
Referring back to the United F/O in KIX.......... this is one individual who i found to be totally out in left field in all respects in his life. This became apparent after about the first 5 minutes in a long and arduous 2 hours. Clearly i was not alone as his fellow colleagues shunned him and my fellow colleagues wouldn't even talk to him after a while. I truly felt bad for this person and tried my best to give him only facts about EK, without any personal opinions, but his insistent belief in EK as his future paradise was just a prelude to those DEC's i've recently met.
I have no heartache if anyone wishes to slag me on my point of view. I only hope i'm wrong, but i sincerely believe we are receiving the dregs of the universe as DEC's from the good ole USA at the moment. Oh who am i kidding, i'm totally right. Over the past year and a half and by all indications from those intending to come here, EK has truly reached a low point.
Part of me wishes them to come along and truly discover for themselves, but then i realize that when you live in a bizarro dream world for most of your life, you might actually enjoy yourself here. I'm sorry to sound so venomous but honestly, give your head a shake if you are considering coming to EK as a DEC.
Not only will you screw over all F/O's but you will over time realize that there are not many colleagues here who will endeavour to spend time with you, make you feel welcome or in any respect make your life happier here. I have never in my life come across such a huge percentage of my colleagues so opposed to one nationality, of one particular group, so unanimously. Feel free to take your lot in life with Captain American, but beware. What comes around goes around. The more that come, the more deep seeded and angry the sentiment will become.
I say this only for those decent individuals from the USA who have decided that life at EK is not for them, that you have made the correct decision. And to those future duds, who are on your way..... all i can say is........... BIG MISTAKE.
Flame away.
It has become clear we are not receiving the 'cream of the crop' in any respect.
When you walk away from a conversation with a potential employee of your company and think to yourself, 'this is one ODD individual' OR 'he's a blatant liar', you have to wonder about the recruiting policies. Clearly those individuals who many would consider as someone great to work with, competent and a general bonus to the company are not that interested in coming to EK. Recruiting is obviously scraping the bottom of the barrel with these latest additions. I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THAT THESE DEC's REPRESENT THE AVERAGE AMERICAN PILOT!!!!!!!! Then again, considering the low percentage of eligible DEC's and the high numbers available, I think I am correct in my assessment that those coming to EK are not representative of the US.
Take Captain America as an example. How on earth could someone of his character squeak thru the recruitment process and then be allowed and even encouraged to behave as he has?
I hate to label any group but the vast majority of DEC's i'm met from the USA are not decent people. And just to clarify my POV, I have no bone to pick with the Yanks, aside from voting in GWB...... TWICE!!!!!!!!!!!!, but aside from that i have alot of respect for many of them. I also have a lot of disrespect for SOME of them but that might be said of any nationality. It just seems to me that we are receiving the worst of the lot with our present policies.
Take a look at the big picture. We have a extremely small percentage of potential DEC's coming from the USA at the moment. These few have decided that in spite of every indication that life here is not as advertised, they have still elected to come. Some are even giving up employment that most can only dream about, totally out of fear of the future in my opinion. And based on my observations the ones i have met have generally been somewhat quirky to say the least. (no, i don't for one minute think i am always correct in character assessment) But I have yet to meet an American DEC who i thought was a good guy. I have met several Yanks at EK who i think are really nice, personable, competent and have integrity, but not one of those has been a DEC. It just makes me wonder.
Referring back to the United F/O in KIX.......... this is one individual who i found to be totally out in left field in all respects in his life. This became apparent after about the first 5 minutes in a long and arduous 2 hours. Clearly i was not alone as his fellow colleagues shunned him and my fellow colleagues wouldn't even talk to him after a while. I truly felt bad for this person and tried my best to give him only facts about EK, without any personal opinions, but his insistent belief in EK as his future paradise was just a prelude to those DEC's i've recently met.
I have no heartache if anyone wishes to slag me on my point of view. I only hope i'm wrong, but i sincerely believe we are receiving the dregs of the universe as DEC's from the good ole USA at the moment. Oh who am i kidding, i'm totally right. Over the past year and a half and by all indications from those intending to come here, EK has truly reached a low point.
Part of me wishes them to come along and truly discover for themselves, but then i realize that when you live in a bizarro dream world for most of your life, you might actually enjoy yourself here. I'm sorry to sound so venomous but honestly, give your head a shake if you are considering coming to EK as a DEC.
Not only will you screw over all F/O's but you will over time realize that there are not many colleagues here who will endeavour to spend time with you, make you feel welcome or in any respect make your life happier here. I have never in my life come across such a huge percentage of my colleagues so opposed to one nationality, of one particular group, so unanimously. Feel free to take your lot in life with Captain American, but beware. What comes around goes around. The more that come, the more deep seeded and angry the sentiment will become.
I say this only for those decent individuals from the USA who have decided that life at EK is not for them, that you have made the correct decision. And to those future duds, who are on your way..... all i can say is........... BIG MISTAKE.
Flame away.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 30 West
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yo Mensaboy,
With a rant as long as yours, I have to wonder about your mental stability. Must be a real joy to share a cockpit with the likes of you. Who are you to make judgements on the abilities of the DEC's? Are they performing in a safe manner, using best practices and SOP required by the company? You know, when you slam a whole group of people, perhaps you should look inward and see if there isn't a little something going on inside of you. But on the other hand, if these guys are not performing up to the company standards, then you have a ligitimate gripe. Or is it they just won't buy a round for you at the bar?
With a rant as long as yours, I have to wonder about your mental stability. Must be a real joy to share a cockpit with the likes of you. Who are you to make judgements on the abilities of the DEC's? Are they performing in a safe manner, using best practices and SOP required by the company? You know, when you slam a whole group of people, perhaps you should look inward and see if there isn't a little something going on inside of you. But on the other hand, if these guys are not performing up to the company standards, then you have a ligitimate gripe. Or is it they just won't buy a round for you at the bar?
Longtimelurker
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: killington Vt
Posts: 391
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mensaboy,
Ever hear the story of a Mom watching her son march in the high school band and he is the only one out of step yet she say's "Look my son is the only one in step"?
Ever hear the story of a Mom watching her son march in the high school band and he is the only one out of step yet she say's "Look my son is the only one in step"?
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Not sure now
Posts: 540
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'l stay out of the whole American bashing part of this thread, but this statement needs a reply.
This statement is just not true. EK pilots do have recourse. One pretty high profile incident that initially resulted in a demotion was over-turned on appeal. That person, with the help of his colleagues, used EK's own internal policies as part of the appeal.
I know I just said I'd stay out of the American bashing thing, but just can't seem to help it.
Mensaboy, you need to take chill pill. In any large group of people there is always going to be the 10 percent that aren't right. If you are pre-disposed to bigotry and racism when you run across one of the 10 percent you may make a snap judgement that all of that particular race, nationality, etc are bad. It is a mistake to judge people based on their race, nationality, or sex. Give each individual a chance. I'm sure 90% of Mensa members would agree
TP
Sorry, but you are wrong. EK is an airline where pilots have NO rights.
There is no recourse, there is no avenue to challenge policy changes, there is no ear to hear when you have something to say, there is no one there for you. At the end of the day you are on your own.
There is no recourse, there is no avenue to challenge policy changes, there is no ear to hear when you have something to say, there is no one there for you. At the end of the day you are on your own.
I know I just said I'd stay out of the American bashing thing, but just can't seem to help it.
Mensaboy, you need to take chill pill. In any large group of people there is always going to be the 10 percent that aren't right. If you are pre-disposed to bigotry and racism when you run across one of the 10 percent you may make a snap judgement that all of that particular race, nationality, etc are bad. It is a mistake to judge people based on their race, nationality, or sex. Give each individual a chance. I'm sure 90% of Mensa members would agree
TP
Join Date: May 2005
Location: europe
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
before leaving EK I took over an aircraft from a DEC in Singapore. This individual had previously had only narrow body Short haul experience and was totally out of his depth. The last checklist completed was the descent checklist. I seems according to the FO (also a new joiner with 7 months on type) that the Captain and he were so far behind the drag curve that he did not have the capacity to dodge the CBs and fly the aircraft and do the checklists. Fair weather and a serviceable B777. Project this crew forward and imagine a dual hydralics failure out of Christchurch in poor weather.
EK is an accident waiting to happen. I agree with mensa and I know first hand, that the majority are struggling in their first year at EK to master the aircraft, routes and SOPs. By contrast the FOs at EK are amongst the best I have flown with. If I miss anything from EK it is the great pilots they have. Sadly along with the demise of the rest of the company that will no longer be true in the future.
As for americans, ask yourself this, if its so great in EK why do you think I left?
Also if you think you will save a red cent in Dubai on an EK salary you are very very mistaken. Those that are financialy secure joined in the good old days 15 or more years ago.
DECs are only a quick fix if quality can be assured and to get quality you must pay. The only pilots joining EK are joining because they have to. Just like those who stay.
Sorry forgot to take the pills with me.
EK is an accident waiting to happen. I agree with mensa and I know first hand, that the majority are struggling in their first year at EK to master the aircraft, routes and SOPs. By contrast the FOs at EK are amongst the best I have flown with. If I miss anything from EK it is the great pilots they have. Sadly along with the demise of the rest of the company that will no longer be true in the future.
As for americans, ask yourself this, if its so great in EK why do you think I left?
Also if you think you will save a red cent in Dubai on an EK salary you are very very mistaken. Those that are financialy secure joined in the good old days 15 or more years ago.
DECs are only a quick fix if quality can be assured and to get quality you must pay. The only pilots joining EK are joining because they have to. Just like those who stay.
Sorry forgot to take the pills with me.
Originally Posted by typhoonpilot
This statement is just not true. EK pilots do have recourse. One pretty high profile incident that initially resulted in a demotion was over-turned on appeal. That person, with the help of his colleagues, used EK's own internal policies as part of the appeal.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,832
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Got to agree with Helen-D, then again KB's the only Yank DEC chappie I've flown with. A very nice guy - a pleasure to fly with.
Can't say I've had the pleasure of BM's company yet
Can't say I've had the pleasure of BM's company yet
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 30 West
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by shaggin yoke
EK is an accident waiting to happen. I agree with mensa and I know first hand, that the majority are struggling in their first year at EK to master the aircraft, routes and SOPs. By contrast the FOs at EK are amongst the best I have flown with. If I miss anything from EK it is the great pilots they have. Sadly along with the demise of the rest of the company that will no longer be true in the future.
As for americans, ask yourself this, if its so great in EK why do you think I left?
.
As for americans, ask yourself this, if its so great in EK why do you think I left?
.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Middle East
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shagger,
I really can't accept your example as targeting the reason for not taking DECs. The only reason is seniority and familiarisation with the company ops.
As far as I am concerned, the only significant difference between a wide and narrow body is when you are taxiing it around. If the guy has done his type rating and passed his checks, he should have a good grasp on the differences.
In your example, the chap would have the same difficulties of dodging CB's, doing checklists etc as he would in a 737.
It would appear from your observation that the guy has had inadequate transition training and shouldn't have got through his line-check in the first place! (or else having a really bad day!)
I really can't accept your example as targeting the reason for not taking DECs. The only reason is seniority and familiarisation with the company ops.
As far as I am concerned, the only significant difference between a wide and narrow body is when you are taxiing it around. If the guy has done his type rating and passed his checks, he should have a good grasp on the differences.
In your example, the chap would have the same difficulties of dodging CB's, doing checklists etc as he would in a 737.
It would appear from your observation that the guy has had inadequate transition training and shouldn't have got through his line-check in the first place! (or else having a really bad day!)
I think the point you are missing IXNAT is that your f/o who gets wide body command is a known quantity to the company, years of sims, line-check's and general day to day feedback on personality and ability, not to mention familiarity with company SOP's.
Furthermore the example you mention has little or no bearing on DEC's at EK.
No-one , or at lest very few question DEC's ability or suitability when they come from a similar type of operation or type. It's when we get people of questionable background coming from not so regulated parts of the world who have a limited grasp of the English language ,and I don't think we need comment on where these people are coming from.....but Loco Easy and Ryan 737 skippers who become DEC's are not coming from the best background for long haul world-wide operations......
Time will tell, I just hope no-one here loses any loved ones when we find out ....
Furthermore the example you mention has little or no bearing on DEC's at EK.
No-one , or at lest very few question DEC's ability or suitability when they come from a similar type of operation or type. It's when we get people of questionable background coming from not so regulated parts of the world who have a limited grasp of the English language ,and I don't think we need comment on where these people are coming from.....but Loco Easy and Ryan 737 skippers who become DEC's are not coming from the best background for long haul world-wide operations......
Time will tell, I just hope no-one here loses any loved ones when we find out ....
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: charleroi
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Icebreaker
It would appear from your observation that the guy has had inadequate transition training and shouldn't have got through his line-check in the first place!
So some sad sack steps across the guy in the right seat and then needs his hand holding for the next year.
The Emirates F/Os do it, but they don't have to like doing it.
Can be quiet in the bar in the evening.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flying Jets
U fly one jet u fly them all. Stick and rudder lads.That is all it maters. INSTINCTS. Seat of the pants. lads lets not forget we all are pilots, We like to fly, It is always flyable. Give it a wing and the best thrust to weight ratio it will fly and trust me we will fly it. This is what we like to do.... As far as the posts here i do agree we are also managing the flight deck and for that we need internal company experience on right seat for atleast 6 months to learn the ropes of company policies. So if i had to appoint DEC i would make them fly 6 months RHS and then upgrade them LHS....
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[QUOTE=sayed777]U fly one jet u fly them all. Stick and rudder lads.That is all it maters. INSTINCTS. Seat of the pants. lads lets not forget we all are pilots, We like to fly, It is always flyable. Give it a wing and the best thrust to weight ratio it will fly and trust me we will fly it. This is what we like to do.... As far as the posts here i do agree we are also managing the flight deck and for that we need internal company experience on right seat for atleast 6 months to learn the ropes of company policies. So if i had to appoint DEC i would make them fly 6 months RHS and then upgrade them LHS....[/QUOTE][/B]
But that's the problem. EK can't attract "good" yank pilots from the legacy carriers unless they are offered attractive DECs. EK is growing so fast and experiencing such a high level of attrition (at least from what I have heard) that these sorts of offers are being made. I doubt a US pilot working at a legacy would consider EK if only offered an FO position (even with the "promise" of upgrade after 6 months).
But that's the problem. EK can't attract "good" yank pilots from the legacy carriers unless they are offered attractive DECs. EK is growing so fast and experiencing such a high level of attrition (at least from what I have heard) that these sorts of offers are being made. I doubt a US pilot working at a legacy would consider EK if only offered an FO position (even with the "promise" of upgrade after 6 months).
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New Zealand
Age: 57
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote from Mensaboy
you will over time realize that there are not many colleagues here who will endeavour to spend time with you, make you feel welcome or in any respect make your life happier here. I have never in my life come across such a huge percentage of my colleagues so opposed to one nationality, of one particular group, so unanimously. Feel free to take your lot in life with Captain American, but beware. What comes around goes around. The more that come, the more deep seeded and angry the sentiment will become.
Boy oh boy, what is wrong with you Mensaboy?
I'm compelled to say you are one sad individual who is severely suffering from some kind of mental illness. Putting the DEC issue aside, I find it hard to believe someone can write crap like this. Anyone who would support the "Mensaboy" view, in my opinion, is an absolute retard.
Kiwi.
ps. Mensaboy, have you just failed your command upgrade? Just wondering.
you will over time realize that there are not many colleagues here who will endeavour to spend time with you, make you feel welcome or in any respect make your life happier here. I have never in my life come across such a huge percentage of my colleagues so opposed to one nationality, of one particular group, so unanimously. Feel free to take your lot in life with Captain American, but beware. What comes around goes around. The more that come, the more deep seeded and angry the sentiment will become.
Boy oh boy, what is wrong with you Mensaboy?
I'm compelled to say you are one sad individual who is severely suffering from some kind of mental illness. Putting the DEC issue aside, I find it hard to believe someone can write crap like this. Anyone who would support the "Mensaboy" view, in my opinion, is an absolute retard.
Kiwi.
ps. Mensaboy, have you just failed your command upgrade? Just wondering.
Last edited by kiwi_r4; 27th Jun 2006 at 22:03.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: mars
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with IXNAT. But the problem we have here at EK are some pretty big egos in the LHS brought on by the compnay and the company culture. Apparently when you get to the LHS you have to know everything cause the guy in the RHS is "really not there". The way I look at it is if I have to memorize a book, I'd get my FO to remember half of the book and I the other half and then I would use his intel to tell me what I don't know.
I'll add to this post later.
I'll add to this post later.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: dubai
Posts: 375
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dear kiwi R4
I have yet to read a response from you that actually says something of consequence. You are sitting at home flying your 737 and apparently just having a whinge at anyone slagging EK. i'm totally surprised as most kiwi's i'm met are rather decent blokes. In the future, if you have anything of consequence to add to this forum,, please do so. If you have some insight, pls enlighten us.
If you were to have the misfortune of flying with individuals who are somewhat similar to our recent additiions at Ek, then pls tell me where I am wrong. Give us something that actually means anything!!
You are so typical of someone who has no idea of the gravity of our present situation. No one at EK wishes things to go badly in the future, except perhaps the very small minority. Go spend a few days flying with someone of clearly poor abilities, and a questionable past........... consistently......... and then make your judgement.
Apparently to EK, the latest additions of DEC's are acceptable. From my experiences on augmented flights and the comments from many capable, and in my opinion excellent F/O's........... this is not the reality. You might want to open your mind to the possibility that most recent DEC's are a bunch of wankers. These are also the same individuals with whom i golf, and to a man............. they are not only odd, but totally out in left field. And if you don't understand that expression............. they are completely messed up human beings. And yes.......... to make this clear, the vast majority have been Americans as of late. So if you think i have some strange aversion to Americans............ you are wrong. But i have an informed and realistic opinion of the latest Yanks to have come to Dubai.
How can i say this clearly enough........... hmmmmm .......... let me think. I would rather fly with the latest south american additions than with any recent USA additions. That is a fact.
I have nothing against the Yanks, but clearly, the bottom of the barrel has been reached. Come spend a few months and meet these clowns........ i'm sure that you would agree with me, in spite of your obvious lack of inexperience.
If you were to have the misfortune of flying with individuals who are somewhat similar to our recent additiions at Ek, then pls tell me where I am wrong. Give us something that actually means anything!!
You are so typical of someone who has no idea of the gravity of our present situation. No one at EK wishes things to go badly in the future, except perhaps the very small minority. Go spend a few days flying with someone of clearly poor abilities, and a questionable past........... consistently......... and then make your judgement.
Apparently to EK, the latest additions of DEC's are acceptable. From my experiences on augmented flights and the comments from many capable, and in my opinion excellent F/O's........... this is not the reality. You might want to open your mind to the possibility that most recent DEC's are a bunch of wankers. These are also the same individuals with whom i golf, and to a man............. they are not only odd, but totally out in left field. And if you don't understand that expression............. they are completely messed up human beings. And yes.......... to make this clear, the vast majority have been Americans as of late. So if you think i have some strange aversion to Americans............ you are wrong. But i have an informed and realistic opinion of the latest Yanks to have come to Dubai.
How can i say this clearly enough........... hmmmmm .......... let me think. I would rather fly with the latest south american additions than with any recent USA additions. That is a fact.
I have nothing against the Yanks, but clearly, the bottom of the barrel has been reached. Come spend a few months and meet these clowns........ i'm sure that you would agree with me, in spite of your obvious lack of inexperience.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New Zealand
Age: 57
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Mensaboy/Toad Hall or whoever else you login as,
You're a bitter and twisted person.
Good luck.
Regards,
Kiwi.
PS, Keep your reply short and don't waste your precious time, I don't read past the first paragraph when its just utter crap.
You're a bitter and twisted person.
Good luck.
Regards,
Kiwi.
PS, Keep your reply short and don't waste your precious time, I don't read past the first paragraph when its just utter crap.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: dubai
Posts: 375
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Everything you state in your post is factually incorrect. Yet again another post that says nothing of consequence from kiwi. Your first two sentences are wrong. Your regards are not sincere, and your longest sentence is contradictory.
Me thinks thou dost protest too much about others being bitter.
Please attempt to write something worthwhile. I have no objections to us disagreeing at all. Its just difficult to respond to your posts that don't actually say anything.
By the way, if you don't like longer posts, then don't read them, and certainly don't take the time to respond especially with your childish and misdirected insults.
Me thinks thou dost protest too much about others being bitter.
Please attempt to write something worthwhile. I have no objections to us disagreeing at all. Its just difficult to respond to your posts that don't actually say anything.
By the way, if you don't like longer posts, then don't read them, and certainly don't take the time to respond especially with your childish and misdirected insults.