DEC's at EK
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most pilots are no fools, they wouldn't let themselves be put off by stupid comments on these sites.
they will consider them but they can certainly filter out the bias. so put down whatever you like.
i am only astounded by some double standards displayed. EK's way of treating people is bashed, but the same
guys display a shameful attitude regarding others, like locals and now women. DEC's are discredited,
even to the point of threatening with "actions", but the same guys loathe QR for apparently luring
EK FO's as DEC's.
state your oppinion, but remain consistent, values should be the same for everyone and everywhere.
it boosts your credibility and will certainly make your upgrade a bit easier on you.
they will consider them but they can certainly filter out the bias. so put down whatever you like.
i am only astounded by some double standards displayed. EK's way of treating people is bashed, but the same
guys display a shameful attitude regarding others, like locals and now women. DEC's are discredited,
even to the point of threatening with "actions", but the same guys loathe QR for apparently luring
EK FO's as DEC's.
state your oppinion, but remain consistent, values should be the same for everyone and everywhere.
it boosts your credibility and will certainly make your upgrade a bit easier on you.
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EkDECwife, of course you're happy here your husband hasn't been shafted by a set of stupid rules like a lot of the FO's here.
If I were you I wouldn't get too involved with the upgrade issues given your personal circumstances
If I were you I wouldn't get too involved with the upgrade issues given your personal circumstances
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DEC's
As usual things tend to get too personal. We all have our point of view. Dubai is not Eden but it's not the worst place on earth either. Regarding DEC's. Pro's and cons. I totally disagree with the principle of DEC's but for colleagues to propose action"against these guys is childish. They are not the problem. Who created the problem? Not the DEC's.
What we need to do is get on with our jobs in the professional, safe manner in which we are accustomed to doing it. The numbers game will sort itself out in due course. The reality is there are a busload of aircraft coming, so who is going to fly them? Even giving every F/O eligible in the company their upgrade, we are still going to fall short. As mentioned in previous posts, we are not the only airline in the area scratching for pilots. Competition is mounting, as is the pressure on certain elements in the airline to find ENOUGH, suitably qualified pilots to fly these aircraft - tough job in the current climate, irrespective of what we are told. (25 applicants a day etc etc).
I have no doubt cross fleet upgrades will follow in due course, as will another package review. Want pilots - must pay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In the meantime, all F/O's keep preparing for those upgrades, keep playing golf, having coffee mornings at Lime Tree, nights out at Longs or whatever else it is you do for fun. Life might be frustrating, but hey guys, I once heard about a guy who whenever he was depressed bought a bottle of Jack Daniels, 2 Havana cigars and would go sit in a graveyard. He would drink the Jack, smoke the cigars then look around and say - WELL, compared to these guys around me I aint doing too bad!
Puts things in perspective a little bit huh?
Watch this space
Keep discovering.....................................
What we need to do is get on with our jobs in the professional, safe manner in which we are accustomed to doing it. The numbers game will sort itself out in due course. The reality is there are a busload of aircraft coming, so who is going to fly them? Even giving every F/O eligible in the company their upgrade, we are still going to fall short. As mentioned in previous posts, we are not the only airline in the area scratching for pilots. Competition is mounting, as is the pressure on certain elements in the airline to find ENOUGH, suitably qualified pilots to fly these aircraft - tough job in the current climate, irrespective of what we are told. (25 applicants a day etc etc).
I have no doubt cross fleet upgrades will follow in due course, as will another package review. Want pilots - must pay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In the meantime, all F/O's keep preparing for those upgrades, keep playing golf, having coffee mornings at Lime Tree, nights out at Longs or whatever else it is you do for fun. Life might be frustrating, but hey guys, I once heard about a guy who whenever he was depressed bought a bottle of Jack Daniels, 2 Havana cigars and would go sit in a graveyard. He would drink the Jack, smoke the cigars then look around and say - WELL, compared to these guys around me I aint doing too bad!
Puts things in perspective a little bit huh?
Watch this space
Keep discovering.....................................
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Talking about "actions" to scare off DECs is a bad road to go down. It was probably said after a beer or three and/or a really bad day at the office and then forgotten.
Interesting listening to the lecture from the wife of a guy who has rolled up in the last few months, a year maximum and went -
Straight to LHS
Straight to higher payscale than some existing capts
Straight to villa, kids or not
And in some cases did not even have the widebody or currency on most recent type which was a "requirement".
Great if it's you, well done, congrats. Not so great if you're waiting for your upgrade. You seem to not care that these things YOU take for granted are, after years here, a little more important to FOs.
The wife seems to be coming from sort sort of fantasy land:
-"FOs stop coming due to the whinging, so they will hire more DECs"? To do what, become FOs?
If FOs stop coming, they will improve the conditions to attract them. It is a simple matter of supply/demand. How can I put it any simpler? Why do you think the engineers have not had a pay-rise this year?
Please try to use common sense if you're going to talk down to people who have been here for years, lest you be held in the same regard as Dumpvalve, another infamous "ekwife".
Unless that's you, Dumpvalve, having some fun with a new name???
Some wise words there by the wife. The time would come a lot quicker without DECs if EK removed their self-imposed promotion criteria shackles.
Sounds like nothing's changed then, hey? I guess we look out for ourselves.
My suggestion:
Go introduce yourself to Dumpvalve, if that isn't you anyway, and have regular meetings in Jumeirah to discuss watering the jingly const workers or whatever. Try to avoid the temptation to dispense advice here to people who resent, not you and your husband, but the situation that led to the presence of DECs when they are not truly necessary.
Interesting listening to the lecture from the wife of a guy who has rolled up in the last few months, a year maximum and went -
Straight to LHS
Straight to higher payscale than some existing capts
Straight to villa, kids or not
And in some cases did not even have the widebody or currency on most recent type which was a "requirement".
Great if it's you, well done, congrats. Not so great if you're waiting for your upgrade. You seem to not care that these things YOU take for granted are, after years here, a little more important to FOs.
The wife seems to be coming from sort sort of fantasy land:
-"FOs stop coming due to the whinging, so they will hire more DECs"? To do what, become FOs?
If FOs stop coming, they will improve the conditions to attract them. It is a simple matter of supply/demand. How can I put it any simpler? Why do you think the engineers have not had a pay-rise this year?
Please try to use common sense if you're going to talk down to people who have been here for years, lest you be held in the same regard as Dumpvalve, another infamous "ekwife".
Unless that's you, Dumpvalve, having some fun with a new name???
Everybody's time will come
many years back when my husband was an FO and he was upset at not getting his command
My suggestion:
Go introduce yourself to Dumpvalve, if that isn't you anyway, and have regular meetings in Jumeirah to discuss watering the jingly const workers or whatever. Try to avoid the temptation to dispense advice here to people who resent, not you and your husband, but the situation that led to the presence of DECs when they are not truly necessary.
EKwife,
Lets see, you are still in the 12 to 18 month honeymoon period here. You have never had to try and survive on an FOs salary here. You have never had to try and survive on the junior Captains salary here. You think its a great place. Fantastic. I am very happy that the decision to move here has worked out so well. But I would like you to consider that for others things may not be so rosey for a whole bunch of other issues, a search of this site will explain. And these will be the issues that effect a new joining FO.
As others have said, its not all bad here. But, this is just another job. It is not up to us to try and sugar coat some of the decisions that have been made recently. In fact, I think it is of some help that guys are fully aware of what is happening before they arrive, this might help kerb the no-shows for courses etc.
If you look at the forums you will see that a pretty good balance can be seen, from the good to the bad . This is the way it should be, let the new joiners see all this and decide if its right for them.
Don.
Lets see, you are still in the 12 to 18 month honeymoon period here. You have never had to try and survive on an FOs salary here. You have never had to try and survive on the junior Captains salary here. You think its a great place. Fantastic. I am very happy that the decision to move here has worked out so well. But I would like you to consider that for others things may not be so rosey for a whole bunch of other issues, a search of this site will explain. And these will be the issues that effect a new joining FO.
As others have said, its not all bad here. But, this is just another job. It is not up to us to try and sugar coat some of the decisions that have been made recently. In fact, I think it is of some help that guys are fully aware of what is happening before they arrive, this might help kerb the no-shows for courses etc.
If you look at the forums you will see that a pretty good balance can be seen, from the good to the bad . This is the way it should be, let the new joiners see all this and decide if its right for them.
Don.
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EK Wife
For your information a very large proportion of EK's FO's were Captains in previous companies - many, like myself, were lured here by the absolute assertion at interview that we qualified for accelerated commands and the companies stated intent not to hire DEC's (because it could be so divisive said the recruiter) - guess what..
I turned up to be told on day one that the rules had changed and moving back to the LHS would now take a minimum of three years (possibly considerably longer for those on the Airbus fleet). Less than six months after arriving I saw the first DEC's turn up - whilst I don't have a single gripe with the individuals who take up the opportunity, I, like many others, have a serious and well founded gripe with a company that, in one smooth move, tells me I'm no longer able to upgrade when they said I could and then recruits DEC's (which is after all the cheaper option) because of a self generated shortage. Whether the company, or you, will admit it, every DEC that turns up is pushing all the FO's commands further downstream.
I'm glad that for you the move has been a successful one, for me, and many others it hasn't. I chose to leave a job at home with a good salary and pension based on the premise that the company would honour the commitments it made when I was interviewed - it hasn't. As a result I've had a very lean couple of years here and very much regret the decision to come here.
I'm not often moved enough to bother posting but I do think you need to be aware of the implications of some company actions and also the very real offence you may cause if you continue to take the 'I'm alright jack' line.
For your information a very large proportion of EK's FO's were Captains in previous companies - many, like myself, were lured here by the absolute assertion at interview that we qualified for accelerated commands and the companies stated intent not to hire DEC's (because it could be so divisive said the recruiter) - guess what..
I turned up to be told on day one that the rules had changed and moving back to the LHS would now take a minimum of three years (possibly considerably longer for those on the Airbus fleet). Less than six months after arriving I saw the first DEC's turn up - whilst I don't have a single gripe with the individuals who take up the opportunity, I, like many others, have a serious and well founded gripe with a company that, in one smooth move, tells me I'm no longer able to upgrade when they said I could and then recruits DEC's (which is after all the cheaper option) because of a self generated shortage. Whether the company, or you, will admit it, every DEC that turns up is pushing all the FO's commands further downstream.
I'm glad that for you the move has been a successful one, for me, and many others it hasn't. I chose to leave a job at home with a good salary and pension based on the premise that the company would honour the commitments it made when I was interviewed - it hasn't. As a result I've had a very lean couple of years here and very much regret the decision to come here.
I'm not often moved enough to bother posting but I do think you need to be aware of the implications of some company actions and also the very real offence you may cause if you continue to take the 'I'm alright jack' line.
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Not much difference between the DEC concept and the Accelerated concept, Sanddancer.
FOs with thousands of hours on jets are still being leap-frogged over by guys who turned up later on. It's just that the accelerated program has been around longer and become part of the scenery. Why should the "Accelerateds" be any less dvisive, in theory?
Funny (not) how people tend to over-look that.
Is the FO qualified to undertake command training or not? After so many years elsewhere why should the extra 18 months make all the difference?
FOs with thousands of hours on jets are still being leap-frogged over by guys who turned up later on. It's just that the accelerated program has been around longer and become part of the scenery. Why should the "Accelerateds" be any less dvisive, in theory?
Funny (not) how people tend to over-look that.
Is the FO qualified to undertake command training or not? After so many years elsewhere why should the extra 18 months make all the difference?
Last edited by KunnDize; 20th Jun 2005 at 18:50.
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EKWife
Have you really been a captain or FO, I doubt it.
Most of us probably do say what we print to peoples faces, bit of an assumption on your part there eh?
Quote "I'm sorry if I upset you but I still don't agree with saying things (some very twisted versions of the truth sometimes) anonymously on an open forum."
Fine, don't post then, by the way how do you know the truth has been twisted?
EK wife, in the nicest way, I would just drop it.
Have you really been a captain or FO, I doubt it.
Most of us probably do say what we print to peoples faces, bit of an assumption on your part there eh?
Quote "I'm sorry if I upset you but I still don't agree with saying things (some very twisted versions of the truth sometimes) anonymously on an open forum."
Fine, don't post then, by the way how do you know the truth has been twisted?
EK wife, in the nicest way, I would just drop it.
Last edited by Fart Master; 20th Jun 2005 at 16:51.
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Kunn Dize this must be your worst nightmare another "mere" female daring to write on pprune. As someone stated on a previous thread when you were bragging about getting a hostie into trouble" you sound like such a moron" I couldn't agree more. What's the matter dear, have a problem with woman in general or has your wife left you and gone home and now you are blaming it on Dubai instead of taking a serious look at your own attitude.
When you make silly comments like you find it very amusing that one of the wives dare to mention "we" when discussing her husband and the Emirates, well it is a case of "we." We were part of the team that packed up and left family and friends and came out to the unknown with our husbands, we are part of the team that has to deal with our husbands coming home totally exhausted from flying his butt off, we are part of the team that has to keep the good humour going, when the hubby is totally deflated after getting a whopping 8% increase when the company is making a $#@%load of profit. We are part of the team that has to go out and get a part time job to keep our families head above water and still be available to take the kids to and from school, sports, parties etc etc, we are part of the team that has to try and keep the husbands morale up at times like this - so yes we wives do have a right to class ourselves as "we"
Why all the interest in the Emirates anyway? You are after all a "businessman?" so the wives have more right to comment on this thread than you.
When you make silly comments like you find it very amusing that one of the wives dare to mention "we" when discussing her husband and the Emirates, well it is a case of "we." We were part of the team that packed up and left family and friends and came out to the unknown with our husbands, we are part of the team that has to deal with our husbands coming home totally exhausted from flying his butt off, we are part of the team that has to keep the good humour going, when the hubby is totally deflated after getting a whopping 8% increase when the company is making a $#@%load of profit. We are part of the team that has to go out and get a part time job to keep our families head above water and still be available to take the kids to and from school, sports, parties etc etc, we are part of the team that has to try and keep the husbands morale up at times like this - so yes we wives do have a right to class ourselves as "we"
Why all the interest in the Emirates anyway? You are after all a "businessman?" so the wives have more right to comment on this thread than you.
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DQ: I agree with you completely re the importance of family support without which life here would have been impossible for me at least.
To try and get back to the subject you also highlight some issues that any prospective employee should know:
It was points like these that ekwife seemed to be objecting to and inferred should be 'kept quiet' so that the rest of us would 'benefit' by proliferating the myth that EK is anything other than what it really is in order to attract people to join. I think that this is the most objectional aspect to the posts and points more to their particular motivation other than I hope many others.
To try and get back to the subject you also highlight some issues that any prospective employee should know:
We were part of the team that packed up and left family and friends and came out to the unknown with our husbands, we are part of the team that has to deal with our husbands coming home totally exhausted from flying his butt off, we are part of the team that has to keep the good humour going, when the hubby is totally deflated after getting a whopping 8% increase when the company is making a $#@%load of profit. We are part of the team that has to go out and get a part time job to keep our families head above water and still be available to take the kids to and from school, sports, parties etc etc, we are part of the team that has to try and keep the husbands morale up at times like this
Last edited by Shake; 20th Jun 2005 at 17:34.
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Girls, please! You are welcome here (the Pilots Ru Network), but we are starting to see you biting at crazy cr@p that only lowers the forum and as you can see we end up off the thread. Why not start a "we" thread and have a boys vs girls slagging match in there. No not a bad day but I come on the computer for a break (if you know what I mean)?
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Yeah that's true, Trimotor, but the 3 year guy has missed 18 months of higher salary (which as we have seen here makes a big difference) and 18 months of command time in the logbook which for some is also pretty important if they want to move on one day, given that not everyone is as happy here as ekdecwife/ekdechusband.
18 months... who knows how many hours that is at 150 a month times X months for some of the time, plus X months times the normal limit the rest of the time, allowing for holidays, etc, etc.
Try not to disparage the motivations of the guys who are (almost) at the bottom of the food chain, the FOs without significant command time. Maybe it DOES stress them. But I'm glad things have worked out for you.
FOs who are promoted will also be senior to the DECs so maybe it isn't so bad after all, hey?
18 months... who knows how many hours that is at 150 a month times X months for some of the time, plus X months times the normal limit the rest of the time, allowing for holidays, etc, etc.
Try not to disparage the motivations of the guys who are (almost) at the bottom of the food chain, the FOs without significant command time. Maybe it DOES stress them. But I'm glad things have worked out for you.
FOs who are promoted will also be senior to the DECs so maybe it isn't so bad after all, hey?
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Yeah I know and I think most of the guys recognise that and do not aim their disgruntlement at the DECs, but at the policy-makers.
Unfortunately ekdecwife hasn't helped their cause, but who knows.... maybe she's posting illicitly without hubby's permission!!!
Careful ekdecwife, hubbys here have special means to instill discipline amongst their wives not normally allowed back home!
Rumours??? The last one I heard was another pay-rise. What gives, TM? Spill.....
Unfortunately ekdecwife hasn't helped their cause, but who knows.... maybe she's posting illicitly without hubby's permission!!!
Careful ekdecwife, hubbys here have special means to instill discipline amongst their wives not normally allowed back home!
Rumours??? The last one I heard was another pay-rise. What gives, TM? Spill.....
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Trimotor,
You have good points. I am a two yr and 10 mth 330 FO who is looking at a very long time to command and not because of my viewpoints. Numerous FOs ahead of me are already delayed and some at this point have been here 3.6 years and still waiting. The FOs ahead of me need to be captain and the 65 or so DECs on the Airbus did in effect take those FOs and mine commands. I don't know who is to blame but the facts are that we are still FOs (through no fault of ours) and they are here as captains and all the benifits that go will it.
Trimotor I guess I do have a bigger problem with the rule changes regarding upgrade and transition upgrade than with the DEC themselves. I did apply to go to the 777 for various reasons not the least of which would be quicker command but was of course turned down only to see very marginal DECs hired to go ahead of me and others.
The bigger issue here is the la la land that the DECs and others live in. How can they possibly know how hard it is to get by in Dubai with the low salary and rising inflation then have the gull to tell me not to say anything bad about Ek and Dubai even if it is the truth?
You have good points. I am a two yr and 10 mth 330 FO who is looking at a very long time to command and not because of my viewpoints. Numerous FOs ahead of me are already delayed and some at this point have been here 3.6 years and still waiting. The FOs ahead of me need to be captain and the 65 or so DECs on the Airbus did in effect take those FOs and mine commands. I don't know who is to blame but the facts are that we are still FOs (through no fault of ours) and they are here as captains and all the benifits that go will it.
Trimotor I guess I do have a bigger problem with the rule changes regarding upgrade and transition upgrade than with the DEC themselves. I did apply to go to the 777 for various reasons not the least of which would be quicker command but was of course turned down only to see very marginal DECs hired to go ahead of me and others.
The bigger issue here is the la la land that the DECs and others live in. How can they possibly know how hard it is to get by in Dubai with the low salary and rising inflation then have the gull to tell me not to say anything bad about Ek and Dubai even if it is the truth?
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[QUOTE]I-FORD
As a future young pensioner, I'm looking at the ME as a potential area where to spend my last years as a pilot.
The fact that DECs are not welcomed by FOs in EK will not deter me as long as I'm welcomed by EK's management.
In the airline currently employing me the attitude shown by some of the posters in this thread, would prevent them to be upgraded captain.
And that is in a european airline where crews have all the rigths and union protection you can imagine.
I'm sure most of EK FOs are different from those posters, otherways the reason for EK looking for DECs instead of promoting from inside would be pretty obvious.
Hey man,
I hope you are kidding.
Visto che sei un CPT Az vedo che posso fare per farti cambiare idea.....
Cheers
AZDRIVER
As a future young pensioner, I'm looking at the ME as a potential area where to spend my last years as a pilot.
The fact that DECs are not welcomed by FOs in EK will not deter me as long as I'm welcomed by EK's management.
In the airline currently employing me the attitude shown by some of the posters in this thread, would prevent them to be upgraded captain.
And that is in a european airline where crews have all the rigths and union protection you can imagine.
I'm sure most of EK FOs are different from those posters, otherways the reason for EK looking for DECs instead of promoting from inside would be pretty obvious.
Hey man,
I hope you are kidding.
Visto che sei un CPT Az vedo che posso fare per farti cambiare idea.....
Cheers
AZDRIVER
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It is fair to say that some people here at ek are happy, but the some are a very small minority, and ones perception of ek is very dependent upon personal circumstances. Ek housewife is probably quite happy given that, if as she says is true her husband joined as a DEC. Recall that when ek advertised for DECs there were few takers, thus they had to offer higher pay scales than existing captains. Thus a DEC is on a higher wage than existing captains, let alone FOs. Most DECs are older, most have kids that have left home and are no longer dependent, or at the very least are old enough to qualify for subsidised schooling (EK no longer pay for kids under 4), have houses that are payed for and so on.
By contrast take a new joining FO with a wife and one or two young kids, which is the demographic profile of the majority of new joiners, he will be lucky if he comes out even each month. If he has commitments back home he is likely to go backwards financially. These are not first timers, they are experienced FOs who have lots of heavy, long haul time, or have held commands on narrow body, and in some cases wide body types. ek NEEDs this experience but refuse to pay the going rate, which is about 50% more than whats on offer now. This is why we are seeing a high number of no shows on many courses of late. When people sit down and examine the package in detail they see it for the joke it is.
NO doubt many airlines have screwed there pilots big time over the past few years, partly because they needed to, but partly because they could. They have abused the recent economic circumstances and introduced non sustainable, and unrealistic degradation in pay, allowances, hotel conditions, schooling, accommodation, ext ext ext. However it has now caught up with them and as managers at EK bask in the glory of recent financial success, its now time to pay the piper.
By contrast take a new joining FO with a wife and one or two young kids, which is the demographic profile of the majority of new joiners, he will be lucky if he comes out even each month. If he has commitments back home he is likely to go backwards financially. These are not first timers, they are experienced FOs who have lots of heavy, long haul time, or have held commands on narrow body, and in some cases wide body types. ek NEEDs this experience but refuse to pay the going rate, which is about 50% more than whats on offer now. This is why we are seeing a high number of no shows on many courses of late. When people sit down and examine the package in detail they see it for the joke it is.
NO doubt many airlines have screwed there pilots big time over the past few years, partly because they needed to, but partly because they could. They have abused the recent economic circumstances and introduced non sustainable, and unrealistic degradation in pay, allowances, hotel conditions, schooling, accommodation, ext ext ext. However it has now caught up with them and as managers at EK bask in the glory of recent financial success, its now time to pay the piper.
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allaru, well said, another great post. The thread is turning into a real truth story about EK today and you and mesaboy speak the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Nice one.