Emirates DECs
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Latest on DEC recruitment:
-Pilot Selection Manager resigns over directive from above to lower the EK standards (which are applied to every other Captain currently flying with EK) to recruit the numbers of DEC's dictated by management. My hat goes off to this individual for his integrity in dealing with this issue.
-gag order placed on the members of the recruitment department to not discuss the state of the current recruitment drive due to the number of failures of DEC candidates.
-the numbers and quality of F/O applications have rapildy dried up due to the realization on the street that:
a) any so called contract you sign with EK is not worth the paper it is printed on,
b) there are other airlines either now hiring or on the verge of doing so and many don't want to jump into getting locked into EK when there are going to be much better opportunities available in the next year or two, and
c) those doing the math can see that it is getting very close to the split where F/O's are going to be spending a lot more time in the right seat in the future (especially with DEC's jumping ahead of them) and many of them do not want to spend extended periods of time locked into the right seat on the very low pay rates (in either Euro or Pound terms). It's a game of musical chairs and the music is very close to stopping. Who will be left without chairs on the left hand side when it does?
I am amazed to see the degree/rate to which this airline has gone from having a generally content pilot group to it's current state. Very sad as I really wanted to spend many years at this company but have had a serious reality check. Dusting off the CV I thought I would never need again.
-Pilot Selection Manager resigns over directive from above to lower the EK standards (which are applied to every other Captain currently flying with EK) to recruit the numbers of DEC's dictated by management. My hat goes off to this individual for his integrity in dealing with this issue.
-gag order placed on the members of the recruitment department to not discuss the state of the current recruitment drive due to the number of failures of DEC candidates.
-the numbers and quality of F/O applications have rapildy dried up due to the realization on the street that:
a) any so called contract you sign with EK is not worth the paper it is printed on,
b) there are other airlines either now hiring or on the verge of doing so and many don't want to jump into getting locked into EK when there are going to be much better opportunities available in the next year or two, and
c) those doing the math can see that it is getting very close to the split where F/O's are going to be spending a lot more time in the right seat in the future (especially with DEC's jumping ahead of them) and many of them do not want to spend extended periods of time locked into the right seat on the very low pay rates (in either Euro or Pound terms). It's a game of musical chairs and the music is very close to stopping. Who will be left without chairs on the left hand side when it does?
I am amazed to see the degree/rate to which this airline has gone from having a generally content pilot group to it's current state. Very sad as I really wanted to spend many years at this company but have had a serious reality check. Dusting off the CV I thought I would never need again.
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Well spoken Dune, feel like you, I started to read flight international again.
I think I posted already six months ago that the fast upgrades will dry out, I didn't know then that TCK will hire DEC's, so if you join now as F/O be prepared to stay in the righthand seat for a while.
I think I posted already six months ago that the fast upgrades will dry out, I didn't know then that TCK will hire DEC's, so if you join now as F/O be prepared to stay in the righthand seat for a while.
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DUNE
what does it mean about the FAILURE OF DEC candidates? Does this mean on the sim check part? The initial training or what?
Also on the Personnel guy who resigned,why would somebody like that care? If management says to hire XXX, what would a PE guy care?
And on the specifics of "lowering" the standards, I thought I saw a few months ago that the standards were fairly high.
Any thoughts?
Is EK hiring more than it is losing?
what does it mean about the FAILURE OF DEC candidates? Does this mean on the sim check part? The initial training or what?
Also on the Personnel guy who resigned,why would somebody like that care? If management says to hire XXX, what would a PE guy care?
And on the specifics of "lowering" the standards, I thought I saw a few months ago that the standards were fairly high.
Any thoughts?
Is EK hiring more than it is losing?
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Good post Dune!
Zomp,
Why not write to CK.....You might be surprised to find out that you have an ally as far as DECs are concerned. The pressure for DECs has been coming from non-(ex)operators.
For Captains, the company believes that lots of hours equals a good Captain and that paying more money means you get a better one! I think its all a crock of sh*t so I tried to think of an appropriate analogy.
1 When buying a new toilet you don't get a bigger toilet coz if you do you'll fall through the seat into the sh*t.
2 You don't get an older toilet because it might be crap and anyway you'll have to change it sooner and therefore end up in the sh*t earlier.
3 If you spend more money on the toilet, you might get a bit of gold plating but no-one can see that anyway when its covered in sh*t.
So what are the options??
The answer could be staring you in the face. Rather than spending god knows how much to find out if a toilet in a house in, say Hong Kong, works; why not check out your own bathrooms first.
All you really want is a toilet that works. You might even find one or two that haven't been in the house for 3 years, but if they do the job they'll keep you out of the sh*t!!
You know what; you can even get an ISO 2000 award that says 'We invest in people!' EK likes awards.
The problem is that rather than managing the situation we seem to have cookie cutter rules. When the cookie cutter doesn't work they throw it away and get a new one.
Hours can be almost worthless as a measure of experience or capability. Using another analogy; our managers would have to sit around until an older, less capable guy but who had lots of hours sitting in the mailroom popped his clogs. Only then would he be able to jump up the tree. He'd complain and say 'but I have 3 degrees from Harvard and one from Stanford in Engineering'. Management would counter by telling him that the mailroom guy has 14 from Bombay, 3 from Croydon and one from Outer Mongolia in Underwater Carpet Weaving.
For the money, but more importantly time spent, on the initial batch of DECs they could have reviewed the files of all the First Officers in the company to see if any of them are suitable upgrade candidates irrespective of any numerical constraints. They might get lucky and it would buy them time, stave off a few DECs, regain some credibility but above all prevent them having to push the sh*t uphill. They could still do it, and probably would, if they were concerned about the company's best interests rather than saving face.
The analogy meister, apologies to Universities in Bombay, Croydon and Outer Mongolia, just off to the loo....quick get a hostie into the cockpit to look after the F/O.
Cerberus
Zomp,
Why not write to CK.....You might be surprised to find out that you have an ally as far as DECs are concerned. The pressure for DECs has been coming from non-(ex)operators.
For Captains, the company believes that lots of hours equals a good Captain and that paying more money means you get a better one! I think its all a crock of sh*t so I tried to think of an appropriate analogy.
1 When buying a new toilet you don't get a bigger toilet coz if you do you'll fall through the seat into the sh*t.
2 You don't get an older toilet because it might be crap and anyway you'll have to change it sooner and therefore end up in the sh*t earlier.
3 If you spend more money on the toilet, you might get a bit of gold plating but no-one can see that anyway when its covered in sh*t.
So what are the options??
The answer could be staring you in the face. Rather than spending god knows how much to find out if a toilet in a house in, say Hong Kong, works; why not check out your own bathrooms first.
All you really want is a toilet that works. You might even find one or two that haven't been in the house for 3 years, but if they do the job they'll keep you out of the sh*t!!
You know what; you can even get an ISO 2000 award that says 'We invest in people!' EK likes awards.
The problem is that rather than managing the situation we seem to have cookie cutter rules. When the cookie cutter doesn't work they throw it away and get a new one.
Hours can be almost worthless as a measure of experience or capability. Using another analogy; our managers would have to sit around until an older, less capable guy but who had lots of hours sitting in the mailroom popped his clogs. Only then would he be able to jump up the tree. He'd complain and say 'but I have 3 degrees from Harvard and one from Stanford in Engineering'. Management would counter by telling him that the mailroom guy has 14 from Bombay, 3 from Croydon and one from Outer Mongolia in Underwater Carpet Weaving.
For the money, but more importantly time spent, on the initial batch of DECs they could have reviewed the files of all the First Officers in the company to see if any of them are suitable upgrade candidates irrespective of any numerical constraints. They might get lucky and it would buy them time, stave off a few DECs, regain some credibility but above all prevent them having to push the sh*t uphill. They could still do it, and probably would, if they were concerned about the company's best interests rather than saving face.
The analogy meister, apologies to Universities in Bombay, Croydon and Outer Mongolia, just off to the loo....quick get a hostie into the cockpit to look after the F/O.
Cerberus
Last edited by Cerberus; 1st Mar 2004 at 13:43.
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Jim:
In response to your questions:
"what does it mean about the FAILURE OF DEC candidates? Does this mean on the sim check part? The initial training or what?"
Yes the failures are occurring during the recruitment process.
Emirates has over the years developed a very comprehensive 3 day evaluation process which looks at many facets of an individual (personality, CRM skills, flying ability, decision making, psychological makeup, etc). The process has been proven to work extremely well over time as there are very few who have made it through the system and not subsequently done well at EK.
For the DEC's, they decided to extend the recruitment process to 5 days. The first 3 days are the same process every F/O must go through but the extra days include a LOFT scenario with failures identical to those experienced by F/O's in EK who attend the command upgrade/evaluation process (and in the interest of fairness these scenarios are not done by the recruitment team; they are evaluated by the standards Captains within EK who have no interest/bias/agenda in this process). They are judged the same way every other Captain is judged within EK; the standard is there and they only have to meet it.
The incident in question involves a candidate who failed the process at the 3 day point (specifically the first sim ride; the same one all the F/O's do when they apply to join EK). In the minds of the pilot recruitment team, there was no point in proceeding to the next phase of the evaluation if the individual did not meet the standard required in the first sim ride (this seems like a very reasonable decision to me). This decision was overridden by the management and they insisted this candidate be given the remainder of the evaluation. This was done and the candidate again failed the LOFT. At this point management decided the process might be too arduous for most of the DEC's they have attracted thus far and decided the best way of getting the numbers they deem they require would be to lower the standards expected of DEC's in the selection process.
"Also on the Personnel guy who resigned,why would somebody like that care? If management says to hire XXX, what would a PE guy care?"
As mentioned by others, the individual is a pilot whose position was Pilot Selection Manager. He obviously disagreed with the higher management decisions to lower the bar only for the purpose of putting DEC bums in seats. As such, he has shown himself to be an individual of integrity and my hat goes off to him. Should I ever be given the opportunity to meet him in a bar on the road rest assured I will be buying the beer that night. So seldom do we see this level of integrity within EK; it is a refreshing change and I wish others would step up to the plate and do the same.
"And on the specifics of "lowering" the standards, I thought I saw a few months ago that the standards were fairly high."
As above, the standards set to enter EK are (or have been) quite high. The problem as I see it is that management have painted themselves into a corner by virtue of blindly saying yes to a/c acquisitions without planning on where they were going to get the pilots to fly them. In my opinion the management have gotten so used to pilots falling over themselves to get into this company that a certain level of arrogance has set in whereby they cannot understand why they are now scrambling for bums to fill seats.
Sorry Jim, you had one more question:
"Is EK hiring more than it is losing?"
Really a two sided question.
I do know there have been very few "quality" DEC candidates to present (no disrespect to those who have applied; it is just that the management of this company thought extremely experienced pilots would be falling over themselves to get into EK given our past history of a very content, willing and cooperative pilot workforce). They expected type rated pilots with 15-20 years command experience under they belt to come to EK for the money they were offering; every Captain at this company knew there was no way that was going to happen. What does that tell you about how informed our current management is when dealing with pilot pay and benefits packages??
Have many pilots haveleft yet? I believe the accurate answer is either none or very few (there is a rumour floating around but I will not go there). I suspect the reason is only because there is nothing better to go to (yet?). The worrying thing I feel is not so much that we are going to lose experienced people (because most of us have staked our professional futures on this airline given it's past and future prospects) but we will definately not take in the types of pilots with the experience we will require in future years given management's now well documented history of moving the goal posts in a whim and applying the "where the f##k else do you you think you will go" managment tactics when dealing with it's current workforce.
In response to your questions:
"what does it mean about the FAILURE OF DEC candidates? Does this mean on the sim check part? The initial training or what?"
Yes the failures are occurring during the recruitment process.
Emirates has over the years developed a very comprehensive 3 day evaluation process which looks at many facets of an individual (personality, CRM skills, flying ability, decision making, psychological makeup, etc). The process has been proven to work extremely well over time as there are very few who have made it through the system and not subsequently done well at EK.
For the DEC's, they decided to extend the recruitment process to 5 days. The first 3 days are the same process every F/O must go through but the extra days include a LOFT scenario with failures identical to those experienced by F/O's in EK who attend the command upgrade/evaluation process (and in the interest of fairness these scenarios are not done by the recruitment team; they are evaluated by the standards Captains within EK who have no interest/bias/agenda in this process). They are judged the same way every other Captain is judged within EK; the standard is there and they only have to meet it.
The incident in question involves a candidate who failed the process at the 3 day point (specifically the first sim ride; the same one all the F/O's do when they apply to join EK). In the minds of the pilot recruitment team, there was no point in proceeding to the next phase of the evaluation if the individual did not meet the standard required in the first sim ride (this seems like a very reasonable decision to me). This decision was overridden by the management and they insisted this candidate be given the remainder of the evaluation. This was done and the candidate again failed the LOFT. At this point management decided the process might be too arduous for most of the DEC's they have attracted thus far and decided the best way of getting the numbers they deem they require would be to lower the standards expected of DEC's in the selection process.
"Also on the Personnel guy who resigned,why would somebody like that care? If management says to hire XXX, what would a PE guy care?"
As mentioned by others, the individual is a pilot whose position was Pilot Selection Manager. He obviously disagreed with the higher management decisions to lower the bar only for the purpose of putting DEC bums in seats. As such, he has shown himself to be an individual of integrity and my hat goes off to him. Should I ever be given the opportunity to meet him in a bar on the road rest assured I will be buying the beer that night. So seldom do we see this level of integrity within EK; it is a refreshing change and I wish others would step up to the plate and do the same.
"And on the specifics of "lowering" the standards, I thought I saw a few months ago that the standards were fairly high."
As above, the standards set to enter EK are (or have been) quite high. The problem as I see it is that management have painted themselves into a corner by virtue of blindly saying yes to a/c acquisitions without planning on where they were going to get the pilots to fly them. In my opinion the management have gotten so used to pilots falling over themselves to get into this company that a certain level of arrogance has set in whereby they cannot understand why they are now scrambling for bums to fill seats.
Sorry Jim, you had one more question:
"Is EK hiring more than it is losing?"
Really a two sided question.
I do know there have been very few "quality" DEC candidates to present (no disrespect to those who have applied; it is just that the management of this company thought extremely experienced pilots would be falling over themselves to get into EK given our past history of a very content, willing and cooperative pilot workforce). They expected type rated pilots with 15-20 years command experience under they belt to come to EK for the money they were offering; every Captain at this company knew there was no way that was going to happen. What does that tell you about how informed our current management is when dealing with pilot pay and benefits packages??
Have many pilots haveleft yet? I believe the accurate answer is either none or very few (there is a rumour floating around but I will not go there). I suspect the reason is only because there is nothing better to go to (yet?). The worrying thing I feel is not so much that we are going to lose experienced people (because most of us have staked our professional futures on this airline given it's past and future prospects) but we will definately not take in the types of pilots with the experience we will require in future years given management's now well documented history of moving the goal posts in a whim and applying the "where the f##k else do you you think you will go" managment tactics when dealing with it's current workforce.
Last edited by Dune; 15th Dec 2003 at 07:15.
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The last few posts have been very well written, and have given me an idea to a potential solution to this interesting problem.
First the history behind this problem:
- Unexpected arrival of A340-300s caught EK Training/Recruitment Dept’s on the hop. Fair enough.
- Easy/quick/cheap option to recruit Contract Captains taken, rather than upgrade from within, which would have put excess strain on already stretched Training and Recruitment Dept’s. Fair enough. These aircraft are extra’s, so FO time to left seat should be unaffected.
- What started as a Contract position soon became a Permanent one. Inevitable really in the expansion climate wasn’t it!! Here the situation starts to snowball! Mistake No.1
- EK management seriously misjudged the experience/pay curve required to attract suitable DEC’s in the current market to move to Dubai. Mistake No. 2.
- By reducing the DEC command req. to A320 size aircraft and increasing the FO upgrade requirements (????) only served to antagonise current EK FO’s. Mistake No.3.
- Then to add salt in the wounds, increase the package to DEC’s over current EK Captains to try and increase applicants, but which only served to antagonise the current EK Captains! Mistake No. 4!
- And now I hear they want to reduce the Standards for DEC’s further! BIG Mistake No. 5! Well done to that Captain who resigned his post, shows lots of integrity and professionalism.
All this seems to stem from such massive expansion putting too great a pressure on an already stretched training/recruitment department. And with crews already working monthly hours on the high side, and around 1 aircraft per month arriving, the situation can only get worse. And this is without people leaving for pastures new, for example Etihad, or going back to Europe/Australia etc as the aviation industries get back on their feet. The planned changes to credit hours, or the fact that everyone has bluntly found out about the value of their contract will also not help retention!!!
SOLUTION.
Here is my solution to this problem, notwithstanding overall pay/conditions etc, this will only change when lots of Captains hand in their notice!!!
Firstly, all current EK captains should at least be paid the same as proposed for the DEC’s.
Secondly.
Quote : “For the money, but more importantly time spent, on the initial batch of DECs they could have reviewed the files of all the First Officers in the company to see if any of them are suitable upgrade candidates irrespective of any numerical constraints. They might get lucky and it would buy them time, stave off a few DECs, regain some credibility but above all prevent them having to push the sh*t uphill. They could still do it, and probably would, if they were concerned about the company's best interests rather than saving face.”
This will undoubtedly mean that a large increase in number of FO’s will be required, so increase resources to the recruitment/training department, quickly sift through the hold pool, drain it out, and start advertising for new FO’s.
Quote : “They have yet to realise that hours can be almost worthless as a measure of experience or capability”
Although I think they are learning fast with the DEC recruitment sessions!
At the moment they are looking for 4000 hrs, which seems too high, remember people joining next year would have to spend around 7+ years in the right seat, recruit people who will be happy to be in the right seat for years to come, resulting in a happy crew!!! Around 2000 Hrs with Jet time could be a ball park figure. Many Majors fly with Cadet F/O’s with around 200 Hrs including EK, so this recent increase to 4000 hrs for FO recruitment seems bizarre!
One of the biggest mistakes an employer can make is the failure to see the quality and capability of it’s current workforce under it’s nose, and to destroy morale and relations by bypassing them in career development and progression. It is a real shame to see EK go down this road.
The upturn in world aviation is on it's way and EK's expansion will stop in it's tracks unless EK quickly stop this rot!
First the history behind this problem:
- Unexpected arrival of A340-300s caught EK Training/Recruitment Dept’s on the hop. Fair enough.
- Easy/quick/cheap option to recruit Contract Captains taken, rather than upgrade from within, which would have put excess strain on already stretched Training and Recruitment Dept’s. Fair enough. These aircraft are extra’s, so FO time to left seat should be unaffected.
- What started as a Contract position soon became a Permanent one. Inevitable really in the expansion climate wasn’t it!! Here the situation starts to snowball! Mistake No.1
- EK management seriously misjudged the experience/pay curve required to attract suitable DEC’s in the current market to move to Dubai. Mistake No. 2.
- By reducing the DEC command req. to A320 size aircraft and increasing the FO upgrade requirements (????) only served to antagonise current EK FO’s. Mistake No.3.
- Then to add salt in the wounds, increase the package to DEC’s over current EK Captains to try and increase applicants, but which only served to antagonise the current EK Captains! Mistake No. 4!
- And now I hear they want to reduce the Standards for DEC’s further! BIG Mistake No. 5! Well done to that Captain who resigned his post, shows lots of integrity and professionalism.
All this seems to stem from such massive expansion putting too great a pressure on an already stretched training/recruitment department. And with crews already working monthly hours on the high side, and around 1 aircraft per month arriving, the situation can only get worse. And this is without people leaving for pastures new, for example Etihad, or going back to Europe/Australia etc as the aviation industries get back on their feet. The planned changes to credit hours, or the fact that everyone has bluntly found out about the value of their contract will also not help retention!!!
SOLUTION.
Here is my solution to this problem, notwithstanding overall pay/conditions etc, this will only change when lots of Captains hand in their notice!!!
Firstly, all current EK captains should at least be paid the same as proposed for the DEC’s.
Secondly.
Quote : “For the money, but more importantly time spent, on the initial batch of DECs they could have reviewed the files of all the First Officers in the company to see if any of them are suitable upgrade candidates irrespective of any numerical constraints. They might get lucky and it would buy them time, stave off a few DECs, regain some credibility but above all prevent them having to push the sh*t uphill. They could still do it, and probably would, if they were concerned about the company's best interests rather than saving face.”
This will undoubtedly mean that a large increase in number of FO’s will be required, so increase resources to the recruitment/training department, quickly sift through the hold pool, drain it out, and start advertising for new FO’s.
Quote : “They have yet to realise that hours can be almost worthless as a measure of experience or capability”
Although I think they are learning fast with the DEC recruitment sessions!
At the moment they are looking for 4000 hrs, which seems too high, remember people joining next year would have to spend around 7+ years in the right seat, recruit people who will be happy to be in the right seat for years to come, resulting in a happy crew!!! Around 2000 Hrs with Jet time could be a ball park figure. Many Majors fly with Cadet F/O’s with around 200 Hrs including EK, so this recent increase to 4000 hrs for FO recruitment seems bizarre!
One of the biggest mistakes an employer can make is the failure to see the quality and capability of it’s current workforce under it’s nose, and to destroy morale and relations by bypassing them in career development and progression. It is a real shame to see EK go down this road.
The upturn in world aviation is on it's way and EK's expansion will stop in it's tracks unless EK quickly stop this rot!
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Dune,
Thanks for your balanced and unbiased comments. After all, this is this Forum made for.
One question: if EK is so eager to find suitable DECs how can be explained the fact that a lot of experienced (12,000 plus TT, in excess of 9,000 HR PIC airline time with more than 3,500 wide body) captains did not receive but the standard hold pool email?
I know 6 of these guys..ok, they are not EK fleet rated.
But this hardly could present a big deal, considering EK training facilities.
Thanks for your balanced and unbiased comments. After all, this is this Forum made for.
One question: if EK is so eager to find suitable DECs how can be explained the fact that a lot of experienced (12,000 plus TT, in excess of 9,000 HR PIC airline time with more than 3,500 wide body) captains did not receive but the standard hold pool email?
I know 6 of these guys..ok, they are not EK fleet rated.
But this hardly could present a big deal, considering EK training facilities.
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Silver Tongued Cavalier
Good Post with a lot of good points. I think that the history of the problem goes back further with a different cause, one which seems to have been forgotten with the passage of time.
A year or so ago, EK was heading into its most ambitious expansion phase to date, and TCK ushered this period in by comprehensively alienating all Training Captains, Line Check Captains and Recruitment staff by changing their pay structure for the worse.
I believe that this was when the rot set in. I may stand corrected on this, as I am not part of the airbus training department, but my information is that from that point on, applications for TC's dried up (evidenced by the airbus training manager phoning captains to try and talk them into joining training, not to mention the recent threat to Boeing captains). This in turn led to stress on the airbus training capability.
The first sign of this was when airbus upgrades went to short courses only (I assume that this was to minimise the amount of TC's needed). That was the period when airbus F/O's transferred to the Boeing fleet for an upgrade, but the same opportunity was not available to Boeing F/O's. The next sign came when they ran out of elligible accelerated command candidates and needed to take some of the new Boeing captains (who were previously airbus F/O's) and send them back to the airbus for a short course(mostly against their will).
Once those two sources ran dry the only alternative was to bring in DEC's.
So I do agree that the latest cause to the problem is the unplanned aquisition of extra aircraft, but the start of the problem goes back much further, and is further testimony to the beligerence and arrogance of our management.
The biggest obstacle to a solution, as you have said, is loss of face. There are now too many people with a finger in the pie, therefore they can all place the blame on someone else.
This really has turned into quite a mess.
You said "so increase resources to the recruitment/training department".
Great in principle, but lets look at paying the current guys what they are worth. At present these guys work in excess of 12 hour days, five days a week, sometimes up to three weeks a month. For this they get the standard 3.5 hours per day, plus the insultingly small 1.2%, (which works out at a bit over half an hour of overtime for a junior captain). On top of that of course they are now recruiting pilots who will get paid more than they do.
Until this company starts to realistically value the contributions of its staff, and reward them accordingly, there is no possibility of an improvement in conditions, or the constantly deteriorating level of good will shown by the workforce.
Cop U Later
The Rev
Good Post with a lot of good points. I think that the history of the problem goes back further with a different cause, one which seems to have been forgotten with the passage of time.
A year or so ago, EK was heading into its most ambitious expansion phase to date, and TCK ushered this period in by comprehensively alienating all Training Captains, Line Check Captains and Recruitment staff by changing their pay structure for the worse.
I believe that this was when the rot set in. I may stand corrected on this, as I am not part of the airbus training department, but my information is that from that point on, applications for TC's dried up (evidenced by the airbus training manager phoning captains to try and talk them into joining training, not to mention the recent threat to Boeing captains). This in turn led to stress on the airbus training capability.
The first sign of this was when airbus upgrades went to short courses only (I assume that this was to minimise the amount of TC's needed). That was the period when airbus F/O's transferred to the Boeing fleet for an upgrade, but the same opportunity was not available to Boeing F/O's. The next sign came when they ran out of elligible accelerated command candidates and needed to take some of the new Boeing captains (who were previously airbus F/O's) and send them back to the airbus for a short course(mostly against their will).
Once those two sources ran dry the only alternative was to bring in DEC's.
So I do agree that the latest cause to the problem is the unplanned aquisition of extra aircraft, but the start of the problem goes back much further, and is further testimony to the beligerence and arrogance of our management.
The biggest obstacle to a solution, as you have said, is loss of face. There are now too many people with a finger in the pie, therefore they can all place the blame on someone else.
This really has turned into quite a mess.
You said "so increase resources to the recruitment/training department".
Great in principle, but lets look at paying the current guys what they are worth. At present these guys work in excess of 12 hour days, five days a week, sometimes up to three weeks a month. For this they get the standard 3.5 hours per day, plus the insultingly small 1.2%, (which works out at a bit over half an hour of overtime for a junior captain). On top of that of course they are now recruiting pilots who will get paid more than they do.
Until this company starts to realistically value the contributions of its staff, and reward them accordingly, there is no possibility of an improvement in conditions, or the constantly deteriorating level of good will shown by the workforce.
Cop U Later
The Rev
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Fullforward,
Interesting question and I really do not have an answer other than my own thoughts.
As you mentioned, these individuals are not type rated. I would speculate that at this time the majority of DEC's they are screening would either be type rated A330/A340 or NG Airbus rated (ie A320) pilots as we need those bums in the seats pretty quick. A full transition course offered to a candidate takes 3 months (plus 25 sectors of line training on top of that adds an additional 1 1/2 months) and we just don't have that much time (not to mention the additional pressure placed upon the training department resources if they have to run full transition courses on the DEC's). An A330/340 or even A320 new hire can be run on the "short course" and be on the line much quicker than non type rated pilots.
Interesting question and I really do not have an answer other than my own thoughts.
As you mentioned, these individuals are not type rated. I would speculate that at this time the majority of DEC's they are screening would either be type rated A330/A340 or NG Airbus rated (ie A320) pilots as we need those bums in the seats pretty quick. A full transition course offered to a candidate takes 3 months (plus 25 sectors of line training on top of that adds an additional 1 1/2 months) and we just don't have that much time (not to mention the additional pressure placed upon the training department resources if they have to run full transition courses on the DEC's). An A330/340 or even A320 new hire can be run on the "short course" and be on the line much quicker than non type rated pilots.
Last edited by Dune; 15th Dec 2003 at 13:21.
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Mick Jagger As a LHS and a Trainer I would be most interested in knowing where you think you could better yourself enough to make it worthwhile leaving EK??
As a B767/A340/B744 rated Captain I find myself virtually stuck where I am at SQ except perhaps a move to CAL.
Unless I can get a well paid contract short term position then I am captive where I am and you are too possibly which is why Airline Managements behave in the way they do.
Bar room complaints by Pilots have ever been thus, and rarely come to much.
White Knight You asked why I posted so often on this thread.
Well it was to draw out all these EK Pilots who are now coming out of the woodwork and who now show EK in its true light and perhaps those considering joining will now have second thoughts to the benefit of EK Pilots and maybe others elsewhere too.
Here in SQ we have had the type of Management style for years that now offends you all. Not that DEC's are a problem here as they have always been around ,but the gradual erosion of T & C's which should make anyone from the expensive First World countries think twice before moving to ANY Airline hiring ex-pats.
As a B767/A340/B744 rated Captain I find myself virtually stuck where I am at SQ except perhaps a move to CAL.
Unless I can get a well paid contract short term position then I am captive where I am and you are too possibly which is why Airline Managements behave in the way they do.
Bar room complaints by Pilots have ever been thus, and rarely come to much.
White Knight You asked why I posted so often on this thread.
Well it was to draw out all these EK Pilots who are now coming out of the woodwork and who now show EK in its true light and perhaps those considering joining will now have second thoughts to the benefit of EK Pilots and maybe others elsewhere too.
Here in SQ we have had the type of Management style for years that now offends you all. Not that DEC's are a problem here as they have always been around ,but the gradual erosion of T & C's which should make anyone from the expensive First World countries think twice before moving to ANY Airline hiring ex-pats.
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Chaps,
How can you possibly point the finger at the training department when it is in the safe hands of (as one trainer refered to him recently) the antichrist of flight training. He has done an outstanding job of slashing costs with no regard to quality, however he has improved my end of year bonuses dramatically. OK so there may be the downside that nobody wants to work in the training deprtment and we do not have enough trainers to train up F/O's for command, but look on the bright side, taking DEC's and giving them minimal training solves all that and allows us to have a bigger bonus at the end of the year.
Be Happy, cos I am.
How can you possibly point the finger at the training department when it is in the safe hands of (as one trainer refered to him recently) the antichrist of flight training. He has done an outstanding job of slashing costs with no regard to quality, however he has improved my end of year bonuses dramatically. OK so there may be the downside that nobody wants to work in the training deprtment and we do not have enough trainers to train up F/O's for command, but look on the bright side, taking DEC's and giving them minimal training solves all that and allows us to have a bigger bonus at the end of the year.
Be Happy, cos I am.
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tck... I do not blame you for enjoying your bonus and job while it lasts.
Training pilots saw all these antichrist safety decisions and then some occur at Gulf Air years ago.
The insurance companies when approached preffered not to listen to their predictions and warnings.
They said they "Costed risk on past track record".
GF insurance costs have gone up 300% after a crash and three hull losses.
Factor in other related costs and GF staff profit bonuses are light years away.
Today GF company servival must cause concern to the local banks that have lent them vast sums.
Today Gf shareholders have had to contribute further good money after bad.
Todays priority at GF is probably servival and not staff bonuses.
Sadly the old GF management was free to ignore any pilot safety inputs and thus let loose they virtually closed the flight safety department and ignored Omani DGCA inputs and any CRM courses.
Anythig offered that involved a cost was ignored.
With nobody "Guarding the Guards" they diligently worked towards and achieved the pilot predicted smoking hole and fizzing sea body count.
These mavericks were only bought to heel when they had totaly bought the airline into disrepute and had killed enough passengers and staff and destroyed enough airframes.
Only when the airline was on its knees and dead bodies everywhere was there a wholesale clearout of management.
IMHO..The management team member that first starts to downgrade trainers terms and conditions and later sticks his nose into lower checking standards and then flight safety and engineering standards is the first link towards a GF situation.
This type of manager will reduce Emirates eventually to what GF was in July 2000.
Sadly the management of Emirates, their insurance companies and their supervising CAA team appear to be allowing the same Anti Christ manager type free reign at Emirates.
It says volumes for their priorities and how little they have learned from the GF situation.
Training pilots saw all these antichrist safety decisions and then some occur at Gulf Air years ago.
The insurance companies when approached preffered not to listen to their predictions and warnings.
They said they "Costed risk on past track record".
GF insurance costs have gone up 300% after a crash and three hull losses.
Factor in other related costs and GF staff profit bonuses are light years away.
Today GF company servival must cause concern to the local banks that have lent them vast sums.
Today Gf shareholders have had to contribute further good money after bad.
Todays priority at GF is probably servival and not staff bonuses.
Sadly the old GF management was free to ignore any pilot safety inputs and thus let loose they virtually closed the flight safety department and ignored Omani DGCA inputs and any CRM courses.
Anythig offered that involved a cost was ignored.
With nobody "Guarding the Guards" they diligently worked towards and achieved the pilot predicted smoking hole and fizzing sea body count.
These mavericks were only bought to heel when they had totaly bought the airline into disrepute and had killed enough passengers and staff and destroyed enough airframes.
Only when the airline was on its knees and dead bodies everywhere was there a wholesale clearout of management.
IMHO..The management team member that first starts to downgrade trainers terms and conditions and later sticks his nose into lower checking standards and then flight safety and engineering standards is the first link towards a GF situation.
This type of manager will reduce Emirates eventually to what GF was in July 2000.
Sadly the management of Emirates, their insurance companies and their supervising CAA team appear to be allowing the same Anti Christ manager type free reign at Emirates.
It says volumes for their priorities and how little they have learned from the GF situation.
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Penny wise, pound foolish...
You can only erode the EK salary and conditions package so far.
That point was 9/11 where rumblings of an outdated package in a high inflation environment was already cause for much concern.
When aviation times were tough (GWI, 9/11, SARS, GWII), the troops were asked to play as a team and help the airline forward in these times of need.
Being the professionals we are, we did and still do!
95 hours a month, but for how long?
That point was 9/11 where rumblings of an outdated package in a high inflation environment was already cause for much concern.
When aviation times were tough (GWI, 9/11, SARS, GWII), the troops were asked to play as a team and help the airline forward in these times of need.
Being the professionals we are, we did and still do!
95 hours a month, but for how long?