Collective Colour Vision Thread 3
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Hi everyone,
I have a little question. Is there a difference between class 1 colour testing and class 2? The reason I ask is that I failed the Ishara, lanterns etc at Gatwick and decided to do a class 2 medical. I went to Switzerland and took a Spectrolux test and passed that-gave results to CAA and now have an unrestricted class 2 and PPL licence. I have now booked myself in for a class 1 at Gatwick, but I asked if there would be any further tests because of this. They said there may be but am awaiting a call back form them to confirm. As you can imagine, I'm now quite worried, having gone all the way to Switzerland and having spent a lot of money. Does anybody have any written legislation that I can quote that specifies that I can only be tested once if I passed?
Thanks for any feedback. This thread is fantastic and a great help
Alex
I have a little question. Is there a difference between class 1 colour testing and class 2? The reason I ask is that I failed the Ishara, lanterns etc at Gatwick and decided to do a class 2 medical. I went to Switzerland and took a Spectrolux test and passed that-gave results to CAA and now have an unrestricted class 2 and PPL licence. I have now booked myself in for a class 1 at Gatwick, but I asked if there would be any further tests because of this. They said there may be but am awaiting a call back form them to confirm. As you can imagine, I'm now quite worried, having gone all the way to Switzerland and having spent a lot of money. Does anybody have any written legislation that I can quote that specifies that I can only be tested once if I passed?
Thanks for any feedback. This thread is fantastic and a great help
Alex
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Hi everybody-sorry for posting the above question, I have just been called back by the CAA and I won't be subjected to further colour vision testing, thank god!
Best of luck to everybody going through the nightmare of being a so-called 'colour unsafe'!
Best of luck to everybody going through the nightmare of being a so-called 'colour unsafe'!
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I'm glad that the subject of fire extinguishers has been brought up.
During my days with a certain UK based aviation regulator I was doing some work with fire extinguishers and discovered that BCF Extinguishers (as used in aircraft and which have been banned virtually everywhere else) are extremely hazardous, even deadly, when used in confined spaces - as discovered by the now deceased Israeli tank crew. The first aid treatment is to remove to fresh air immediately - this is slightly difficult at FL 350.
The chances are that if you do use a BCF extinguisher on board an aircraft with a fire you are going to have some very ill people on board, if not dead. Yes, of course the other option is not a particularly desirable situation but fires can be extinguished by other means. Portable, hand held fire extinguishers are about as much use as a chocolate teapot at fighting anything other than the smallest of fires so a CO2 jobby would be just as useful as BCF and a lot safer.
So I raised the question with said regulator - why are BCF extinguishers still used on aircraft? The answer - (paraphrasing) 'They're lighter and cheaper in terms of weight versus effectiveness.'
So a good CO2 extinguisher would be just as effective but heavier and you would probably have to lose one revenue earning seat off each aircraft. Heaven forbid that to be the case. BCF is not the best option when all factors are taken into consideration but it is by far the cheapest.
Give me a 5kg CO2 extinguisher any day over BCF. I will survive a lungful of CO2 but don't fancy my chances with BCF.
Oxygen cylinders are black with a white band, BCF extinguishers are green (quite bright usually) with big letters BCF on them. There is no CVD condition that would confuse black/white with green, not even monochromacy, and BCF is usually quite easy to read, even for dyslexics. The quoted case is clearly one of decision error when faced with a stressful situation, although why on earth the CA would choose to use CVD as an excuse is beyond me, probably to avoid being labelled Tit Of The Month.
What's the point of this revelation? It goes to show that safety (of passengers) may be compromised where cost is involved.
If you could prove that CVD pilots were cheaper to 'maintain' than colour normal pilots you'd all be flying for airlines tomorrow.(Tongue in Cheek)
Onto the subject of avionics and colour displays, or any coloured items on the aircraft for that matter. Who works on aircraft? B1 A&P and B2 Avionics Licenced Aircraft Engineers. How are the instruments coloured displays checked, to ensure colours are correct? By the B2 LAE I imagine. Who changes the coloured lenses of external aircraft lights and the flight deck instrumentation. The B1 LAE? Who drives the B-747 from the stand to maintenance hangars via the lit taxiways at night and back to the stand to park the aircraft using the red/green parking lights that the CAA Study reckons is safety CRITICAL? Company authorised B1 engineers usually. I don't know of any carrier which uses its flight crews for maintenance tasks.
Who doesn't have to undergo any form of medical testing by the CAA, including colour vision testing? Licenced Aircraft Engineers!! The CAA is quite happy for potentially CVD LAEs to drive heavy aircraft at night on airports and for potentially CVD LAEs to certify coloured displays as fit for use.
Which CAA Med Dept personnel are ATPL holders? The only one down at Gatwick with any heavy aircraft experience I'm aware of is RH, who took a sabbatical in 2006 to fly 757s for Globespan for 6 months. He may have got his 500 hours Multi-Crew experience in during that time. JF left the CAA in 2005 to fly for FlyBe (IIRC). There may be others, admittedly, but I can't say I was ever aware of anyone leaving to fly for airlines other than those mentioned above.
Personally, I feel that, given the CAA's arguments on this issue, commercial aviation experience would have to be an absolute necessity for any senior post holder. How can you justify any practical operational decision when you have no first hand knowledge of that environment yourself?
Check please!
Coat, Hat.....Whooosh........back under stone!
During my days with a certain UK based aviation regulator I was doing some work with fire extinguishers and discovered that BCF Extinguishers (as used in aircraft and which have been banned virtually everywhere else) are extremely hazardous, even deadly, when used in confined spaces - as discovered by the now deceased Israeli tank crew. The first aid treatment is to remove to fresh air immediately - this is slightly difficult at FL 350.
The chances are that if you do use a BCF extinguisher on board an aircraft with a fire you are going to have some very ill people on board, if not dead. Yes, of course the other option is not a particularly desirable situation but fires can be extinguished by other means. Portable, hand held fire extinguishers are about as much use as a chocolate teapot at fighting anything other than the smallest of fires so a CO2 jobby would be just as useful as BCF and a lot safer.
So I raised the question with said regulator - why are BCF extinguishers still used on aircraft? The answer - (paraphrasing) 'They're lighter and cheaper in terms of weight versus effectiveness.'
So a good CO2 extinguisher would be just as effective but heavier and you would probably have to lose one revenue earning seat off each aircraft. Heaven forbid that to be the case. BCF is not the best option when all factors are taken into consideration but it is by far the cheapest.
Give me a 5kg CO2 extinguisher any day over BCF. I will survive a lungful of CO2 but don't fancy my chances with BCF.
Oxygen cylinders are black with a white band, BCF extinguishers are green (quite bright usually) with big letters BCF on them. There is no CVD condition that would confuse black/white with green, not even monochromacy, and BCF is usually quite easy to read, even for dyslexics. The quoted case is clearly one of decision error when faced with a stressful situation, although why on earth the CA would choose to use CVD as an excuse is beyond me, probably to avoid being labelled Tit Of The Month.
What's the point of this revelation? It goes to show that safety (of passengers) may be compromised where cost is involved.
If you could prove that CVD pilots were cheaper to 'maintain' than colour normal pilots you'd all be flying for airlines tomorrow.(Tongue in Cheek)
Onto the subject of avionics and colour displays, or any coloured items on the aircraft for that matter. Who works on aircraft? B1 A&P and B2 Avionics Licenced Aircraft Engineers. How are the instruments coloured displays checked, to ensure colours are correct? By the B2 LAE I imagine. Who changes the coloured lenses of external aircraft lights and the flight deck instrumentation. The B1 LAE? Who drives the B-747 from the stand to maintenance hangars via the lit taxiways at night and back to the stand to park the aircraft using the red/green parking lights that the CAA Study reckons is safety CRITICAL? Company authorised B1 engineers usually. I don't know of any carrier which uses its flight crews for maintenance tasks.
Who doesn't have to undergo any form of medical testing by the CAA, including colour vision testing? Licenced Aircraft Engineers!! The CAA is quite happy for potentially CVD LAEs to drive heavy aircraft at night on airports and for potentially CVD LAEs to certify coloured displays as fit for use.
Which CAA Med Dept personnel are ATPL holders? The only one down at Gatwick with any heavy aircraft experience I'm aware of is RH, who took a sabbatical in 2006 to fly 757s for Globespan for 6 months. He may have got his 500 hours Multi-Crew experience in during that time. JF left the CAA in 2005 to fly for FlyBe (IIRC). There may be others, admittedly, but I can't say I was ever aware of anyone leaving to fly for airlines other than those mentioned above.
Personally, I feel that, given the CAA's arguments on this issue, commercial aviation experience would have to be an absolute necessity for any senior post holder. How can you justify any practical operational decision when you have no first hand knowledge of that environment yourself?
Check please!
Coat, Hat.....Whooosh........back under stone!
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ST-EX.
Let me get this right.
You went to Switzerland for a JAA Class 2 medical, failed the Ishihara but passed the Spectrolux and now hold an unrestricted JAA Class 2 medical.
You are booked in for a JAA Class 1 medical at Gatwick and you have been informed (verbally) by the CAA that you will not have to undergo any further colour vision testing.
Could you please contact me by PM.
Cheers,
2close
Let me get this right.
You went to Switzerland for a JAA Class 2 medical, failed the Ishihara but passed the Spectrolux and now hold an unrestricted JAA Class 2 medical.
You are booked in for a JAA Class 1 medical at Gatwick and you have been informed (verbally) by the CAA that you will not have to undergo any further colour vision testing.
Could you please contact me by PM.
Cheers,
2close
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No, he's not. The official word from his PS at Clarence House is that he is NOT CVD.
Somewhat contradictory to the statement on the The Royalist website and in many other media articles.
The Royalist - Colour Blindness Robs William of His Army Dream
This article also identifies that he may have undergone Laser Surgery - another absolute No-No in professional flying (in the UK at least).
Look, good luck to HRH - I personally wish him all the best and I sincerely hope he has a great career.
However, I do not believe the official word. I think this is a genuine case of goalpost shifting on the part of the civil servants / MOD. Let's face facts, there was always going to be one rule for one and another rule for the others. Could you honestly ever imagine any of our civil servants ever refusing HRH his desire to fly operationally or even professionally in civvy street?
Best get David Icke on the case. Maybe there's something in the royal DNA which can alter CVD genes.
Poof - bang goes me knighthood!! At least I won't have to keep checking the honours lists twice a year from now on.
Somewhat contradictory to the statement on the The Royalist website and in many other media articles.
The Royalist - Colour Blindness Robs William of His Army Dream
This article also identifies that he may have undergone Laser Surgery - another absolute No-No in professional flying (in the UK at least).
Look, good luck to HRH - I personally wish him all the best and I sincerely hope he has a great career.
However, I do not believe the official word. I think this is a genuine case of goalpost shifting on the part of the civil servants / MOD. Let's face facts, there was always going to be one rule for one and another rule for the others. Could you honestly ever imagine any of our civil servants ever refusing HRH his desire to fly operationally or even professionally in civvy street?
Best get David Icke on the case. Maybe there's something in the royal DNA which can alter CVD genes.
Poof - bang goes me knighthood!! At least I won't have to keep checking the honours lists twice a year from now on.
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Well I failed the Ishihara test today, a shame because the rest of my medical was immaculate, and now I've got to make a booking for the farnsworth lantern test, has anyone done this test and failed the ishihara? Can anyone give an indepth description of what its actually like? How far away are the dots (for instance on a computer screen how large would they be)? Do they change hues/contrast? Whats the pass rate in Australia for this and what is considered a pass?
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Soup Nazi:
If you were in any doubt before attending Gatwick for your first attempt - I would start off with this :
Amazon.co.uk: Ishihara's Tests for Colour Blindness: S. Ishihara: Books
If you were in any doubt before attending Gatwick for your first attempt - I would start off with this :
Amazon.co.uk: Ishihara's Tests for Colour Blindness: S. Ishihara: Books
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And at the same time, buy yourself a sash to wear to Gatwick which states 'I've learned the Ishihara Plates', which has just about the same effect as publishing your intentions on these pages..........
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Hi Sacky, dont worry to much I cannot read all the Ishihara plates I was sent to the college of optometry in Carlton Melbourne about 10 yrs now and done a color evaluation, you will do the Ishihara again to confirm your weakness,you will also do a few color arrangement tests and the Farnsworth lantern. The doctor told me i had a very mild green weakness, I did pass the farnsworth lantern and was given NO restrictions on my class 1 medical up to and including ATPL, now having flown commercial for some ten years now with no problems.
The farnsworth lantern is about 2 mtrs from you,you will be shown the colors you will see prior to the test, you will have one run of different colors and if you make no mistakes you pass, but if you do make up to 2 errors and no more you will be given 2 more runs and are not allowed to make anymore than 1 error in each run to pass.The test is not easy but remember your first thoughts of what colors you see will more than likely be the right ones, i found them very helpful and do not set out to fail you, i do have friends who have not passed the farnsworth and have restrictions on the medical, they hold commercial and NVFR and instructor ratings so dont worry to much if you want to have a career in aviation you most probably will acheive this, good luck let me know how you go
The farnsworth lantern is about 2 mtrs from you,you will be shown the colors you will see prior to the test, you will have one run of different colors and if you make no mistakes you pass, but if you do make up to 2 errors and no more you will be given 2 more runs and are not allowed to make anymore than 1 error in each run to pass.The test is not easy but remember your first thoughts of what colors you see will more than likely be the right ones, i found them very helpful and do not set out to fail you, i do have friends who have not passed the farnsworth and have restrictions on the medical, they hold commercial and NVFR and instructor ratings so dont worry to much if you want to have a career in aviation you most probably will acheive this, good luck let me know how you go
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Don't forget guys, that the UK CAA with its allies in ICAO is trying to achieve world domination by having its CAD test mandated across ALL ICAO member states and not just EASA.
The USA FAA has already officially stated that it is abandoning the Farnsworth within the next two years, quite possibly in favour of the CAD and I heard a whisper that Australian CASA may be trying to follow suit, despite their previous defeat in the discrimination Courts.
The USA FAA has already officially stated that it is abandoning the Farnsworth within the next two years, quite possibly in favour of the CAD and I heard a whisper that Australian CASA may be trying to follow suit, despite their previous defeat in the discrimination Courts.
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Search the CVD thread mate (Collective Colour Vision Thread...).
I'm pretty sure you can do an IMC, even an IR, but obviously you are restricted to day-flight only. I'm not 100% I'm afraid, but definitley worth sifting through the CV thread.
All the best
I'm pretty sure you can do an IMC, even an IR, but obviously you are restricted to day-flight only. I'm not 100% I'm afraid, but definitley worth sifting through the CV thread.
All the best
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Well I failed the farnsworth and I suppose the other colour vision tests they gave me. Apparently I have Deuteranopia, which means I am missing the green cone from my eyes. This is quite servere colour blindness... and will in all likelyhood prevent me from pursueing in aviation. So I just have 2 questions to ask:
1. Is there any other options available to me now this has happened?
2. Why do aviation signals rely primarily on red and green when green colour blindness is the most common form? Why not red and blue?
1. Is there any other options available to me now this has happened?
2. Why do aviation signals rely primarily on red and green when green colour blindness is the most common form? Why not red and blue?
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Hi Sacky,
What exact tests where performed on you?
To be honest I have little confidence in lantern tests to diagnose whether someone is a "trichromat or dichromat"....and the D-15 type test (matching coloured dots in a line) I can't really comment on as i've never taken it.
In all, CVD is a very difficult thing to asses the extent of, and in my own view, the anomaloscope is the only thing which comes close to a real diagnosis.
If you can take a test on a Nagel Anomaloscope, or maybe the software version, perhaps you could write to the institution with your result and see if they will consider it.
Can't hurt to pursue all avenues. Don't give up mate.
Neo
What exact tests where performed on you?
To be honest I have little confidence in lantern tests to diagnose whether someone is a "trichromat or dichromat"....and the D-15 type test (matching coloured dots in a line) I can't really comment on as i've never taken it.
In all, CVD is a very difficult thing to asses the extent of, and in my own view, the anomaloscope is the only thing which comes close to a real diagnosis.
If you can take a test on a Nagel Anomaloscope, or maybe the software version, perhaps you could write to the institution with your result and see if they will consider it.
Can't hurt to pursue all avenues. Don't give up mate.
Neo
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The tests they performed were:
Ishihara
D15
Nagel Anomaloscope
Farnsworth Lantern
I don't think theres many tests left to fail... unless Australia offers some kind of practical signal test.
Ishihara
D15
Nagel Anomaloscope
Farnsworth Lantern
I don't think theres many tests left to fail... unless Australia offers some kind of practical signal test.
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Vision
Hi there guys,
I'm 16 and was going to start a PPL soon but I hit a speedbump
. I wear glasses and was aware of certain vision standards and I think I may be outside those standards which are holding me back. If ye could look at this eye test from an ophthalmologist I went to recently and tell me what ye think my chances are of being a pilot. Thanks:
Vision:
Vision right with +5.00 DS is 6/6
'' left '' +4.50 DS is 6/6
Colour vision: normal with isihara an each eye
Cover Test: No phoria with glasses
Alternating cover test: small esophoria measuring 5 dioptres
Field of Vision (Humphrey's): Normal
Fundoscopy: Normal each eye.
Sean
I'm 16 and was going to start a PPL soon but I hit a speedbump
. I wear glasses and was aware of certain vision standards and I think I may be outside those standards which are holding me back. If ye could look at this eye test from an ophthalmologist I went to recently and tell me what ye think my chances are of being a pilot. Thanks:Vision:
Vision right with +5.00 DS is 6/6
'' left '' +4.50 DS is 6/6
Colour vision: normal with isihara an each eye
Cover Test: No phoria with glasses
Alternating cover test: small esophoria measuring 5 dioptres
Field of Vision (Humphrey's): Normal
Fundoscopy: Normal each eye.
Sean
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"Use the Nagel Anomaloscope as the test standard"
Not a chance. The number of failures amongst current pilots would be astronomical, at the current pass standard. Achieving +/- 4 units on the test standard is no mean achievement; I am -6 on Nagel and only fail the Ishihara by 1 - 2 plates but I am unable to see clearly the microscopic lights on the lanterns any longer (age, I'm afraid, has caused a condition known as 'scatter') so the authorities deem me unsafe (despite having deemed me safe 16 years ago when I COULD see the latern lights).
Not a chance. The number of failures amongst current pilots would be astronomical, at the current pass standard. Achieving +/- 4 units on the test standard is no mean achievement; I am -6 on Nagel and only fail the Ishihara by 1 - 2 plates but I am unable to see clearly the microscopic lights on the lanterns any longer (age, I'm afraid, has caused a condition known as 'scatter') so the authorities deem me unsafe (despite having deemed me safe 16 years ago when I COULD see the latern lights).
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I just thought I would share my good news..... I'm now an official holder of a JAA / CAA Class 1 Medical Certificate. Without any restrictions!!! 
I always thought that I may have a slight colour vision deficiency so I booked my eye tests first so I could clarify if it was ever going to be a problem. I passed the Ishihara plates with I think probably 1 error or confusion. I didn't need to take any further tests and went on to score pretty well with the remainder eye tests To the point where the opthamologist said that I had the best vision out of every one that had turned up that day.
With me passing the area I thought I would struggle on, I continued on with the medical and seemed to be perfectly normal with the remainder tests. Hearing, cardiology etc.
This is obviously very satisfying news for me and confirms that my previous suspicions were probably exaggerated and in fact my colour vision was pretty normal and most importantly good enough to pass the class 1.
I would like to wish everybody else good luck with their endeavours in this area and would encourage anyone who thinks they suffer with CVD to research it as much as possible. I thought it would always get in the way of my dreams.... only to be told that my vision was perfectly normal... if not better than average.
Good luck guys.
I always thought that I may have a slight colour vision deficiency so I booked my eye tests first so I could clarify if it was ever going to be a problem. I passed the Ishihara plates with I think probably 1 error or confusion. I didn't need to take any further tests and went on to score pretty well with the remainder eye tests To the point where the opthamologist said that I had the best vision out of every one that had turned up that day.
With me passing the area I thought I would struggle on, I continued on with the medical and seemed to be perfectly normal with the remainder tests. Hearing, cardiology etc.
This is obviously very satisfying news for me and confirms that my previous suspicions were probably exaggerated and in fact my colour vision was pretty normal and most importantly good enough to pass the class 1.
I would like to wish everybody else good luck with their endeavours in this area and would encourage anyone who thinks they suffer with CVD to research it as much as possible. I thought it would always get in the way of my dreams.... only to be told that my vision was perfectly normal... if not better than average.
Good luck guys.
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Trouble Booking Lantern Test
Hi Guys,
Has anyone else had trouble booking a Lantern Test with the CAA recently? I first phoned the CAA on the 1st Sept and was informed that the Beynes Lantern was away and wouldn't be back until mid Sept. I phoned again on 15th Sept but it still hadn't been returned. I phoned again today and was told that the Lantern was in France and that it wouldn't be back before the end of October.
It's a good job that i don't need the test done that quickly.
Anyone else having trouble booking?
Ed
Has anyone else had trouble booking a Lantern Test with the CAA recently? I first phoned the CAA on the 1st Sept and was informed that the Beynes Lantern was away and wouldn't be back until mid Sept. I phoned again on 15th Sept but it still hadn't been returned. I phoned again today and was told that the Lantern was in France and that it wouldn't be back before the end of October.
It's a good job that i don't need the test done that quickly.
Anyone else having trouble booking?
Ed
Upto The Buffers
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This "new test" isn't approved for anything yet, so at the present time it remains nothing other than an expensive computer game. This was what it looked like in development: A new web-based colour vision test
As mentioned, there are other places you can go, Glasgow being one. Plenty of euro city-break opportunities too
As mentioned, there are other places you can go, Glasgow being one. Plenty of euro city-break opportunities too
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Beynes Lantern in France
Well I guess the Beynes lantern didnt take itself on a holiday to Cannes, so I'd say it was back at the manufacturer having a service - i.e. putting some nice new bulbs that are white rather than dirty cream and green rather than an 'off white mint colour'.
Perhaps someone thought they hadn't got it serviced within the manufacturers specified intervals and therefore based their appeal on it! So maybe someone at the CAA thought it might be time to get it looked at!
Just a thought!!
Perhaps someone thought they hadn't got it serviced within the manufacturers specified intervals and therefore based their appeal on it! So maybe someone at the CAA thought it might be time to get it looked at!
Just a thought!!