Collective Colour Vision Thread 3
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Legal Challenge
Well there are avenues there Soup Nazi, and there is one party of people from this forum whom are gathering together information for some type of legal challenge I believe, hopefully they will see our posts and see fit to comment here. But they have already spoke about it on previous pages in this thread.
Whilst I cannot make any specific comments regarding the above, I can go so far as to say that, following many months of research, preparation and discussion the advice has now been received at conference and the green light has been given.
I will go so far as to say though, that our numbers are growing and that we are gaining international support. Nevertheless, we are always eager to gain additional support, especially from our friends in mainland Europe.
If you now wish to join us or should anyone merely want any further information please contact me via PM.
All the best,
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Hi guys,
sorry for my late reply ( especially at Neo), but it's an exam period for me and things are really stressed out.
@ soup nazi , Greece is a full JAA country so whatever applies in G.Britain sould also apply in Greece as well. We have 3 AMC's here which can issue a class 1 medical. 2private clinics and the HAF hospital which is also responsible for the applicants of the Air Force.
What's funny about it is that only 1 AMC had a lantern test and i had to travel 400km from Athens to get it done.So i went over and took the test.They gave me a paper verifying that I successfully completed the test. several months later(for personal reasons) I went to another AMC and completed the rest of the medical.
I have to say saomething to allt he new people reading this thread.
For me this forum worked two ways, one, it got me very well informed and I knew when someone was telling me crap, but on the other hand it was adding to the stress. So take the tests, and if you fail then come back here and search for more options, and above all, DO NOT give up.
take care all
sorry for my late reply ( especially at Neo), but it's an exam period for me and things are really stressed out.
@ soup nazi , Greece is a full JAA country so whatever applies in G.Britain sould also apply in Greece as well. We have 3 AMC's here which can issue a class 1 medical. 2private clinics and the HAF hospital which is also responsible for the applicants of the Air Force.
What's funny about it is that only 1 AMC had a lantern test and i had to travel 400km from Athens to get it done.So i went over and took the test.They gave me a paper verifying that I successfully completed the test. several months later(for personal reasons) I went to another AMC and completed the rest of the medical.
I have to say saomething to allt he new people reading this thread.
For me this forum worked two ways, one, it got me very well informed and I knew when someone was telling me crap, but on the other hand it was adding to the stress. So take the tests, and if you fail then come back here and search for more options, and above all, DO NOT give up.
take care all
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No problem Katsogr, we all know what it's like to be that busy. Thanks for telling us a bit more about your experience.
Which lantern test did you take out of interest? Well done for passing, and on receiving a full class 1. I bet that's an amazing feeling.
Which lantern test did you take out of interest? Well done for passing, and on receiving a full class 1. I bet that's an amazing feeling.
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Spectrolux
Hi Everyone
I was wondering if anyone had information regarding the Spectrolux test. I was wondering where is it possible to do it and what does it involve? Is it easier than the HW lantern test? Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Keeffer
I was wondering if anyone had information regarding the Spectrolux test. I was wondering where is it possible to do it and what does it involve? Is it easier than the HW lantern test? Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Keeffer
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Whether it's easier or not depends on how much you know. That sounds stupid, but it's sadly the case. If you do the H/W at Gatwick, they deliberately fail to mention the most critical aspect of the test; that the hue shade) of the colours will change during the test. Greens, Reds and Whites can be light or dark... By not telling you this it becomes more of a mental test than a colour test.
Having done both I would say they're fairly similar, but that key piece of knowledge makes all the difference. I failed the H/W at Gatwick, almost certainly by not knowing about the hue changes, yet when I took the Spectrolux it was explained fully in advance. I'd take a bet on passing the H/W now I know how it works. In fact, I'm at the Belgrano in a couple of weeks; since I seem to have made something of an impression with the medical crew I might just see if they'll let me have a go. For research purposes of course...
There used to be 2 Spec lanterns available (that I know of). 1 was in Dubendorf, the other at Spiez; both in Switzerland. I'm told the former is no longer available (shame really - it's a great street to dance down on the way to the local bar after passing
). Both are/were the responsibility of Swiss Aeromedical. There are several forum members who have been to Spiez recently, some with very positive results (ie. passed). It's not nearly as easy to get to as Dubendorf unfortunately, but still accessible thanks to Switzerland having a transport system 1000x better than the UK.
I'm sure some of our similarly affected colleagues will be along shortly with further Spiez details. Best of luck if you decide to go there.
Having done both I would say they're fairly similar, but that key piece of knowledge makes all the difference. I failed the H/W at Gatwick, almost certainly by not knowing about the hue changes, yet when I took the Spectrolux it was explained fully in advance. I'd take a bet on passing the H/W now I know how it works. In fact, I'm at the Belgrano in a couple of weeks; since I seem to have made something of an impression with the medical crew I might just see if they'll let me have a go. For research purposes of course...
There used to be 2 Spec lanterns available (that I know of). 1 was in Dubendorf, the other at Spiez; both in Switzerland. I'm told the former is no longer available (shame really - it's a great street to dance down on the way to the local bar after passing
). Both are/were the responsibility of Swiss Aeromedical. There are several forum members who have been to Spiez recently, some with very positive results (ie. passed). It's not nearly as easy to get to as Dubendorf unfortunately, but still accessible thanks to Switzerland having a transport system 1000x better than the UK.I'm sure some of our similarly affected colleagues will be along shortly with further Spiez details. Best of luck if you decide to go there.
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Hi C-Hutch. Welcome to the frustrating world of "alternative" colour vision in aviation
The lens(es) you mention, I do have some experience. I'll be interested to see whether anyone else will post, I'm the only person I've ever met that tried one, though I've "heard" of others.
The trial for me back in the mid 'nineties, was a single semi-rigid contact lens worn in one eye, called the X-Chrom (of American manufacture, but issued to me in the UK). Basically, it had a small coloured area in the centre (which will be red or green depending on the deficiency). If you close the other eye when wearing it, it is essentially like looking through a coloured filter. When both eyes are open, the composite view as produced in the brain is such that everything appears as normal with the exception that anything in your "problem" colour is largely enhanced to a sort of neon effect.
I can say without any doubt that in my case it completely cured any problem of indentifying colours. This was true also for lights. The effect was less pronounced than for solid colours, less enhancing I might describe it, but it was 100% effective. Alas, the CAA in the UK would not accept the lens as a fix to issue a Class 1 medical, the reason being principally a concern that it may reduce night vision.
I could go on, and I will post more detail if you are interested. First though, I'd check with the current regs & requirements in SA before you go further down that route.
Posting this reminds me: any problem of distinguishing the very rarely used red & green lamps in aviation is simply cured with a pair of hand-held red and green coloured filters. Pity it's not allowed... glasses are
The lens(es) you mention, I do have some experience. I'll be interested to see whether anyone else will post, I'm the only person I've ever met that tried one, though I've "heard" of others.
The trial for me back in the mid 'nineties, was a single semi-rigid contact lens worn in one eye, called the X-Chrom (of American manufacture, but issued to me in the UK). Basically, it had a small coloured area in the centre (which will be red or green depending on the deficiency). If you close the other eye when wearing it, it is essentially like looking through a coloured filter. When both eyes are open, the composite view as produced in the brain is such that everything appears as normal with the exception that anything in your "problem" colour is largely enhanced to a sort of neon effect.
I can say without any doubt that in my case it completely cured any problem of indentifying colours. This was true also for lights. The effect was less pronounced than for solid colours, less enhancing I might describe it, but it was 100% effective. Alas, the CAA in the UK would not accept the lens as a fix to issue a Class 1 medical, the reason being principally a concern that it may reduce night vision.
I could go on, and I will post more detail if you are interested. First though, I'd check with the current regs & requirements in SA before you go further down that route.
Posting this reminds me: any problem of distinguishing the very rarely used red & green lamps in aviation is simply cured with a pair of hand-held red and green coloured filters. Pity it's not allowed... glasses are
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I've tried the lenses and the specs. You can easily pass the Ishihara test (and the tougher one, whose name escapes me) with the correct lens. They do however make everything look rather different, and in such context are more of a hindrance than a help. The optometrist I visited (in Pontefract, Yorkshire) made me go outside and take a walk up and down the high street, looking in windows at common products. It was wierd as fůck!
I don't know about SA, but JAA don't permit such lenses and I can understand why to be honest. They'll get you through the tests, yes. Will they make you safer to fly an aeroplane? No. You're perfectly capable of doing that already; the science and statistics prove that. But hey, when did aviation ever let the facts get in the way of good old discriminatory legislation?
If I were you I'd speak to the SA CAA, see what options are available if you fail the initial colour test. Do they have lantern testing? Do they have any kind of practical test, like the FAA lightgun? I'd only look into lenses if a) all other avenues fail, and b) they're actually permitted by the SA CAA. Either way I certainly wouldn't fly with them!
I don't know about SA, but JAA don't permit such lenses and I can understand why to be honest. They'll get you through the tests, yes. Will they make you safer to fly an aeroplane? No. You're perfectly capable of doing that already; the science and statistics prove that. But hey, when did aviation ever let the facts get in the way of good old discriminatory legislation?
If I were you I'd speak to the SA CAA, see what options are available if you fail the initial colour test. Do they have lantern testing? Do they have any kind of practical test, like the FAA lightgun? I'd only look into lenses if a) all other avenues fail, and b) they're actually permitted by the SA CAA. Either way I certainly wouldn't fly with them!
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You lucky boy! This straight from the SA CAA website...
Seems it's just Europe that has its head stuck up its arse. Practical tests are usually just that, practical, hence not a problem for all but the most serious CVDs. Note that the vast, vast majority of CVD sufferers have only a mild problem which will not bother them during a practical test.
4.5 PRACTICAL FLIGHT TESTS
In some cases, it will be necessary to perform a practical medical flight test with an applicant to determine medical fitness and ability to control the aircraft e.g. pilots with monocular vision, disabled pilots, colour vision appeals etc. In these cases, the medical examiner must refer the case to the panel or to the CAA to arrange for a flight test with a CAA flight inspector.
In some cases, it will be necessary to perform a practical medical flight test with an applicant to determine medical fitness and ability to control the aircraft e.g. pilots with monocular vision, disabled pilots, colour vision appeals etc. In these cases, the medical examiner must refer the case to the panel or to the CAA to arrange for a flight test with a CAA flight inspector.
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If only the CAA Medical Dept would accept practical flight tests we would all be a lot better off.In my last discussion with the CAA optometrist I asked if they would accept a practical flight test conducted with a CAA authorised examiner to demonstrate that I could perform the colour critical tasks that were identified in their own research conducted at Farnborough. The answer was of course NO!Their argument against practical testing is that it is not uniform and conditions will vary from day to day, which will be a disadvantage to some applicants. This is why the FAA will allow a single retake on the tower signal test to eliminate practical problems of the day.I guess that this is only the opinion of the Medical dept as I’m sure if they walked through their glass doors to the other side of the building the officials of Flight Crew Licensing will surly endorse the use of practical flight tests – just imagine a CPL from a book!
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If anyone out there hasn't taken the time to read the Denison and Pape cases from Australia, I would recommend you do so.
What an absolutely damning indictment of the colour vision policies of certain countries, which were systematically destroyed by expert testimony.
The rational, objective opinion of the Administrative Appeals Tribunal panel was a delight to read and the critical dismissal of the CAA's expert witnesses' obviously biased research study (mmmmm......deja vu?) was quite humourous, in a perverse sort of way.
But please, don't take my word for it. Google them and read them for yourselves.
Even if you can't Google them, you'll be hearing of them soon, in any case.
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What an absolutely damning indictment of the colour vision policies of certain countries, which were systematically destroyed by expert testimony.
The rational, objective opinion of the Administrative Appeals Tribunal panel was a delight to read and the critical dismissal of the CAA's expert witnesses' obviously biased research study (mmmmm......deja vu?) was quite humourous, in a perverse sort of way.
But please, don't take my word for it. Google them and read them for yourselves.
Even if you can't Google them, you'll be hearing of them soon, in any case.
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Hi everyone,
It's finally happened-through the post today, I got my new medical and licence-unrestricted! After a lot of stress and money spent, I am now apparently safe to fly at night(!)
The short story is that after failing the lanterns at Gatwick, I went to Spiez, Switzerland and took the Spectrolux test, passed this and faxed the CAA my results. They have now issued me with a new medical and I can continue with ATPL.
Ok, now the long story(for anyone who wants the gory details)! While doing my PPL, I went to Gatwick with the aim of getting a class 1. I had failed the Ishara test at my local optician, so I took the lantern test at Gatwick. I was shocked when I was told that I'd failed. I had apparently made mistakes seeing the difference between green and white at a distance. I was pretty devastated and was convinced that I would not be able to pursue a career as a pilot.
After trying to get over it and spurred on by the fact that I was enjoying my PPL so much, I started researching on the internet and found this fantastic forum. I read about people in similar situations who had tried the Spectrolux and Nagel tests. I called Dubendorf-only to find they no longer did the Spectrolux test and they referred me to Spiez. I booked myself in to do it in Spiez, after trawling the forums on any info on the Spectrolux test. I stayed overnight in London in a travelodge just next to London city airport-then flew out the next morning with Swiss to Basel. If anyone's thinking of doing the same thing, beware that Basel's train station is not at the airport, it is a 20 minute bus journey to the centre. I got a train that went to Spiez via Berne. Got to Spiez at 13:00-my appointment was at 13:30! It was pouring down with rain and I had no idea where the optician was located. Thankfully, I had typed in the address into google maps and actually printed out-I asked some passersby-a word of warning, nobody there spoke english! Maybe I was just very unlucky, but they looked at me blankly when I started in English. Fortunately, I am a fluent French speaker and this really helped! German is the main language used in this region-the streets don't seem to have signs, so I had to ask people. I eventually found it-a small opticians place located on the first floor of an apartment. I was 10 minutes late, but it was pretty busy so that wasn't a problem. The receptionists spoke no English, so again, be prepared. After some eye tests with Dr Kopp(who does speak English), he informed me that out of the people who failed the lantern tests at Gatwick, only 1 in 10 passed the Spectrolux test! This was not good news.
The test itself consists of sitting at one end of a room and looking at a box with two lights, one on top of the other. They can be red, green or white combinations and you have to say what colour you think they are. They appear for about a second, then disappear-which is when you name the colours. There are no mistakes allowed. The colours can be different hues-so you can have a very light green, or a very light red, for example. I was really nervous, but was amazed when I was told that I'd passed!
After the test, we did a Nagel test to see what my problem had been at Gatwick. I have a mild green defeciency which is why I had problems with the light greens and whites. But as I had passed the Spectrolux, this was no problem! I payed 150 swiss francs for the tests and was told they would write to me with my results which I could then send to the CAA. I wanted to take photos of the outside of the opticians to help others recognise it-but was in a huge rush to get my train and flight back home. Sorry! Anyway, I sent the CAA my results and now have my licence and medical unrestricted, so job done! Here are the details of the optician:
· Dr. med. B. Kopp
Augenarzt FMH
Oberexperte BAZL
Thunstrasse 2
3700 Spiez
Tel: +41 33/654 70 20
Fax: +41 33/654 70 79
Please only contact them to book an appointement and not for queries or questions, they are really busy and I would hate to see them turning people away due to a tidal wave of questions about the Spectrolux. I faxed them a polite letter detailing my situation and they called me to arrange the booking.
Anyway, big thank you to Shunter and Telboy for their very helpful advice, really appreciated it. Best of luck to anyone thinking of doing the same thing!
It's finally happened-through the post today, I got my new medical and licence-unrestricted! After a lot of stress and money spent, I am now apparently safe to fly at night(!)
The short story is that after failing the lanterns at Gatwick, I went to Spiez, Switzerland and took the Spectrolux test, passed this and faxed the CAA my results. They have now issued me with a new medical and I can continue with ATPL.
Ok, now the long story(for anyone who wants the gory details)! While doing my PPL, I went to Gatwick with the aim of getting a class 1. I had failed the Ishara test at my local optician, so I took the lantern test at Gatwick. I was shocked when I was told that I'd failed. I had apparently made mistakes seeing the difference between green and white at a distance. I was pretty devastated and was convinced that I would not be able to pursue a career as a pilot.
After trying to get over it and spurred on by the fact that I was enjoying my PPL so much, I started researching on the internet and found this fantastic forum. I read about people in similar situations who had tried the Spectrolux and Nagel tests. I called Dubendorf-only to find they no longer did the Spectrolux test and they referred me to Spiez. I booked myself in to do it in Spiez, after trawling the forums on any info on the Spectrolux test. I stayed overnight in London in a travelodge just next to London city airport-then flew out the next morning with Swiss to Basel. If anyone's thinking of doing the same thing, beware that Basel's train station is not at the airport, it is a 20 minute bus journey to the centre. I got a train that went to Spiez via Berne. Got to Spiez at 13:00-my appointment was at 13:30! It was pouring down with rain and I had no idea where the optician was located. Thankfully, I had typed in the address into google maps and actually printed out-I asked some passersby-a word of warning, nobody there spoke english! Maybe I was just very unlucky, but they looked at me blankly when I started in English. Fortunately, I am a fluent French speaker and this really helped! German is the main language used in this region-the streets don't seem to have signs, so I had to ask people. I eventually found it-a small opticians place located on the first floor of an apartment. I was 10 minutes late, but it was pretty busy so that wasn't a problem. The receptionists spoke no English, so again, be prepared. After some eye tests with Dr Kopp(who does speak English), he informed me that out of the people who failed the lantern tests at Gatwick, only 1 in 10 passed the Spectrolux test! This was not good news.
The test itself consists of sitting at one end of a room and looking at a box with two lights, one on top of the other. They can be red, green or white combinations and you have to say what colour you think they are. They appear for about a second, then disappear-which is when you name the colours. There are no mistakes allowed. The colours can be different hues-so you can have a very light green, or a very light red, for example. I was really nervous, but was amazed when I was told that I'd passed!
After the test, we did a Nagel test to see what my problem had been at Gatwick. I have a mild green defeciency which is why I had problems with the light greens and whites. But as I had passed the Spectrolux, this was no problem! I payed 150 swiss francs for the tests and was told they would write to me with my results which I could then send to the CAA. I wanted to take photos of the outside of the opticians to help others recognise it-but was in a huge rush to get my train and flight back home. Sorry! Anyway, I sent the CAA my results and now have my licence and medical unrestricted, so job done! Here are the details of the optician:
· Dr. med. B. Kopp
Augenarzt FMH
Oberexperte BAZL
Thunstrasse 2
3700 Spiez
Tel: +41 33/654 70 20
Fax: +41 33/654 70 79
Please only contact them to book an appointement and not for queries or questions, they are really busy and I would hate to see them turning people away due to a tidal wave of questions about the Spectrolux. I faxed them a polite letter detailing my situation and they called me to arrange the booking.
Anyway, big thank you to Shunter and Telboy for their very helpful advice, really appreciated it. Best of luck to anyone thinking of doing the same thing!
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Collective Colour Vision Thread 3
Hi there,
sorry if this is a repost but I've run searches in forum and found nothing.
Does anyone know if there's anyplace in portugal to run
holmes-wright lantern
spectrolux
anomaloscope
exams?
I've failed beynes lantern
thanks in advance
regards and best luck to all
sorry if this is a repost but I've run searches in forum and found nothing.
Does anyone know if there's anyplace in portugal to run
holmes-wright lantern
spectrolux
anomaloscope
exams?
I've failed beynes lantern
thanks in advance
regards and best luck to all
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You will only find spectrolux in Switzerland at Spiez as post above. They also have an anomalascope. As for HW I do not know in Portugal, but the UK CAA do have it.Hope this helps
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question
ST-EX:
"The short story is that after failing the lanterns at Gatwick, I went to Spiez, Switzerland and took the Spectrolux test, passed this and faxed the CAA my results. They have now issued me with a new medical and I can continue with ATPL."
which lantern tests did you fail?
Had CAA already issued an certificate with color unsafe or was the process in stand by? They accepted without restrictions swiss exams?
thanks, I'm going to city uni in london next week to make all the exams (except spectrolux, but I think it's alike holmes-wright). I failed ishihara and beynes lanern...
thanks for your post
regards
"The short story is that after failing the lanterns at Gatwick, I went to Spiez, Switzerland and took the Spectrolux test, passed this and faxed the CAA my results. They have now issued me with a new medical and I can continue with ATPL."
which lantern tests did you fail?
Had CAA already issued an certificate with color unsafe or was the process in stand by? They accepted without restrictions swiss exams?
thanks, I'm going to city uni in london next week to make all the exams (except spectrolux, but I think it's alike holmes-wright). I failed ishihara and beynes lanern...
thanks for your post
regards
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:)
hi ST-EX
I've heard that holmes-wright was much alike spectrolux.
In this case, what you are saying might not confirm that.
Did you notice any difference?
Holmes wright has 2 lamps displayed at the same time each instance for about 1-2 secs.
Beynes has only one.
Can you confirm you (probalby) did also holmes-wright at gatwick?
regards and thanks for your report
I've heard that holmes-wright was much alike spectrolux.
In this case, what you are saying might not confirm that.
Did you notice any difference?
Holmes wright has 2 lamps displayed at the same time each instance for about 1-2 secs.
Beynes has only one.
Can you confirm you (probalby) did also holmes-wright at gatwick?
regards and thanks for your report
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As Shunter said, did the two lanterns at Gatwick-Holmes and Beynes. Was it like the Spectrolux? Er.. well, it's a lantern, so the principle is the same and the aim is to answer what colours you see, so in those respects I guess it's pretty similar. I have no idea what the technical differences are between the two lanterns though!
Colour perception varies between individuals, so I cannot answer whether the test is 'easier' or 'harder'. For me, personally, it was easier as I passed it! Other people may find it harder. Bottom line is, if you have failed at Gatwick and you're determined enough, you have an option to try Spiez where you may (or may not) pass the Spectrolux.
Colour perception varies between individuals, so I cannot answer whether the test is 'easier' or 'harder'. For me, personally, it was easier as I passed it! Other people may find it harder. Bottom line is, if you have failed at Gatwick and you're determined enough, you have an option to try Spiez where you may (or may not) pass the Spectrolux.
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Holmes-Wright and Spectrolux are very similar. They both display lights in pairs. The both use red, green and white. They both change the hue (shade) of the colour as the test progresses.
I did the same as ST-EX, failed both at Gatwick then passed the Spectrolux in Switzerland. Personally I feel that it was the knowledge of how the lantern worked which helped me pass the test. If you don't realise the colours change in hue, it's twice as difficult. Without trying them one after another it's difficult to say for sure if one is easier than the other.
I did the same as ST-EX, failed both at Gatwick then passed the Spectrolux in Switzerland. Personally I feel that it was the knowledge of how the lantern worked which helped me pass the test. If you don't realise the colours change in hue, it's twice as difficult. Without trying them one after another it's difficult to say for sure if one is easier than the other.
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Renewal
Hello. Just a good question mainly for all CVD´s that have managed to get the so wanted JAA land First Class Medical Certificate passing one lantern after failing some other lantern at some other place.
Imagine that you have to renew your medical but you are in a different JAA country from the one of your initial exam and it has a different colour vision test. What will happen? For example, this Dr. (AME) can test you on CVD with Ishihara´s if he wants to, right? Then you will not pass and then? What would you do? Has anybody gone already over a situation like this?
I know that as per JAR colour vision is tested at initial only but a Dr. might test you at any time, right?
Hope to hear good answers.
Regards,
SL
Imagine that you have to renew your medical but you are in a different JAA country from the one of your initial exam and it has a different colour vision test. What will happen? For example, this Dr. (AME) can test you on CVD with Ishihara´s if he wants to, right? Then you will not pass and then? What would you do? Has anybody gone already over a situation like this?
I know that as per JAR colour vision is tested at initial only but a Dr. might test you at any time, right?
Hope to hear good answers.
Regards,
SL