CTC McAlpine/easyJet/JMC Sponsorship Selection
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mooney, the gist was i am classified along with the middle 40% of european pilots, I have a certain affinity for multitasking but with a few weaknesses that could be covered with practice. in other words, average.
i'm not being bitter, if ctc is looking for the best, fair enough, but thing is i really cant afford paying for a license at the moment. by the time i make enough to earn my fATPL and actually have enough hours to land a job at an airline i'll be old enough not be considered viable as a f/o by a number of airlines, so the way i see it, ctc was my best bet at becoming a pilot. i know things may change and that this is far from universal, but it is my 2 cents.
on a lighter note, getting your ppl/cpl in new zealand is very economic. i might try getting down there. i'm definetily not giving up but my options are few
i'm not being bitter, if ctc is looking for the best, fair enough, but thing is i really cant afford paying for a license at the moment. by the time i make enough to earn my fATPL and actually have enough hours to land a job at an airline i'll be old enough not be considered viable as a f/o by a number of airlines, so the way i see it, ctc was my best bet at becoming a pilot. i know things may change and that this is far from universal, but it is my 2 cents.
on a lighter note, getting your ppl/cpl in new zealand is very economic. i might try getting down there. i'm definetily not giving up but my options are few
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V1R
I understand this however I was under the impression that ctc cadets had to undergo this course as well! May be wrong and again sorry to change the subject a bit.
Cheers
This thread is geared toward CTC's ab-initio cadet scheme - I think you're talking about the ATP scheme for those already with a licence?
Cheers
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Louis, you're absolutely right. Once finished with the basic training (up to CPL/IR issue) the cadets go to CTC for exactly the same MCC/AQC course as the ATP scheme people.
This is probably all on CTCs website but basically the first week is a classroom based CRM course, the 2nd week is the MCC course (5 x 4 hours in the sim - Boeing 737NG at the moment) mainly using the automatics and putting into practice what you learnt in week 1 and the 3rd week is the 'advanced handling' (4 x 4 hours in the sim) + a day's groundschool, where you do similar stuff to week 2 but without any automatics.
This is probably all on CTCs website but basically the first week is a classroom based CRM course, the 2nd week is the MCC course (5 x 4 hours in the sim - Boeing 737NG at the moment) mainly using the automatics and putting into practice what you learnt in week 1 and the 3rd week is the 'advanced handling' (4 x 4 hours in the sim) + a day's groundschool, where you do similar stuff to week 2 but without any automatics.
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Out in NZ
Is there anyone out in NZ at the moment that reads this? I'm waiting to go out and amongst the excitement trying to figure out a few things like should my partner come out with me? I heard that some people out there have other halves with them and wondered if it's a good idea or not. Anyone able to let me know what it's like??
Thanks
rtj
Thanks
rtj
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Hello again,
Well, despite Rusty's dire predictions, I did make it through to stage two, but have not got any further, sadly. I haven't had any feedback yet, but I pretty much know where I went wrong: the parts of the aptitude tests that involved using the joystick. Nerves affected me in the first test and I kept moving it all over the place, even in the wrong direction at times, and I had only just got used to how sensitive it was by the last attempt.
I was always going to self-sponsor, but I will wait until I get any feedback before I press onto the ATPLs under my own steam. If it turns out that I am way below the standard, I guess that this would be a good opportunity to review my options once more.
I am going to post my own description of what was involved here when I've had a chance to calm down a bit, because I think it really does help to know what you're in for. Thanks to everyone who gave me advice!
Well, despite Rusty's dire predictions, I did make it through to stage two, but have not got any further, sadly. I haven't had any feedback yet, but I pretty much know where I went wrong: the parts of the aptitude tests that involved using the joystick. Nerves affected me in the first test and I kept moving it all over the place, even in the wrong direction at times, and I had only just got used to how sensitive it was by the last attempt.
I was always going to self-sponsor, but I will wait until I get any feedback before I press onto the ATPLs under my own steam. If it turns out that I am way below the standard, I guess that this would be a good opportunity to review my options once more.
I am going to post my own description of what was involved here when I've had a chance to calm down a bit, because I think it really does help to know what you're in for. Thanks to everyone who gave me advice!
Sorry to hear you didnt. Better luck if you can re-apply in 6months.
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As promised, here's a summary of my experience:
Aptitude tests:
*Keeping two lines moving independently in horizontal and vertical planes centred on a cross while they attempt to move.
This is done with a joystick (something I'd never used before). I would simply say on the basis of how I found it that it's as well to keep calm if possible and also, if you spend a lot of time using a mouse as I do, bear in mind that moving the hand back to go up and forward to go down may feel a bit counter-intuitive at first.
*Three pictures of a man in the same pose but four different orientations - facing you, facing away and the same two but upside down. In one hand is a square, the other a circle. This leaves 2 options for each of three variables - left hand/right hand (from his point of view), square/circle, and literally 'is' or 'isn't'. So a statement like 'positive left square' means there IS a SQUARE in his LEFT hand. You then have a period of time to decide how many of the images this combination of statements is true for. In each of the three rounds, this period of time gets shorter.
Once I'd established a system, this was more straightforward. I always worked out what should be in the right hand then concentrated at the right hand. So if it said 'positive left square', I'd look for the ones that had a circle in the right hand. You have a few seconds after hearing the statement before you see the image, during which time you can sort out in your head what you're looking for. I also found it helped to put myself in the man's position in my brain and 'feel' which hand the shape was in if I got confused. But finding a system that works for you is the key, I think.
*Looking for a shape in an image composed of lines. A shape is shown to you and there are two sqaures divided into patterns by straight lines. You have to say whether the shape can be found amongst the shapes that these lines form (same size and orientation) in neither of them, one of them, the other, or both.
I found that this got easier as my eye got tuned into it. The thing that made it easier was realising that I could look at the bit of the shape that is not perpendicular, study the angle of the slope and length of the line, and then transfer my eye into the images above. Much easier to pick out a shape or say for sure that it isn't there if a slope of the same depth is sought. I think most people realised you need to identify a distictive bit to narrow your search.
*Guiding an 'aeroplane' through a series of boxes (like an ILS apparently - not that I've ever flown an ILS!).
The only thing I would say here is they really mean that the joystick is sensitive - they emphasise it lots of times. The first time I did it, I overreacted and it went all over the place, totally out of control. You are not given a chance to try out the response of the joystick beforehand on this one. The aim is to improve each time. I have never used a joystick before (deprived childhood!
) and I think this is where I really fell down. I got the hang of it subsequently, but my score was still low. While these are natural abilities, etc, etc, maybe an hour or two in an arcade might just help you get the feel for this sort of thing, I don't know! 
(Others mentioned rudder pedals on this thread, but they seem to have done away with these.)
*Identifying shapes within a grid that are identical to the shape shown at the beginning of the row and the colour at the head of the column in which they appear.
I didn't find this too bad, but I did accidentally click where I didn't mean to once or twice; a daft, avoidable mistake! I found it easiest to scan the images and look at the colours first: keep scanning, keep checking that they don't match. When a colour does match, you can then check the shape. Seemed to work OK for me, apart from the daft moments... but then, I didn't get through! (
)
*Finally, back to centering the two lines again. However, this time, you are given other tasks to do simultaneously. The first is hearing a sequence of numbers, counting backwards, and you identify moments when the sequence changes. The second is to hear a shape and colour read out and key into the pad the colour and number superimposed on it if you see it appear.
With the number counting, it seems to help to hear the next in the sequence in your head before it comes, then if it's anything different you can hit the button before working out what the new sequence is.
With the shapes, I tried to keep an eye out for the colour in my peripheral vision and look properly when the colour came up. Actually keying it in means taking your eyes of the two lines, which is hard (there was usually an accompanying wobble when I did it!
).
Finally, you are asked to do all three at the same time. This is just overload really and, for the first time, most people's 'misses' seemed to outnumber their 'hits' (judging from chats afterwards). I decided to concentrate primarily on centering the two lines and just do my best with the other two and I think it could have been worse. Might turn out I'm wrong when I get the feedback, but it helped me not get fixated on one thing to do it that way.
This was my experience of the tests. I didn't get through and suspect did quite badly on some, but nonetheless I hope it is an interesting read for people that have not yet taken them.
The maths questions, 15 in 15 minutes, were fine for a numerate grown-up (again, pending feedback!). I practised this and I think that helped. Long division, long multiplication and proportions/conversions are particularly handy.
Group discussion was a little frustrating because people were focussed on appearing to be impressive interactors and not actually too concerned with the nature of the discussion itself. On a couple of occasions it felt to me that things I said were not really picked up on, because people were trying to jump in with reasoned argument! And as we HAD to reach a consensus, of course, it became a muddy compromise!
Good luck to 1pudding1 in the next stage (I was in the red group btw) and to everyone else.
Aptitude tests:
*Keeping two lines moving independently in horizontal and vertical planes centred on a cross while they attempt to move.
This is done with a joystick (something I'd never used before). I would simply say on the basis of how I found it that it's as well to keep calm if possible and also, if you spend a lot of time using a mouse as I do, bear in mind that moving the hand back to go up and forward to go down may feel a bit counter-intuitive at first.
*Three pictures of a man in the same pose but four different orientations - facing you, facing away and the same two but upside down. In one hand is a square, the other a circle. This leaves 2 options for each of three variables - left hand/right hand (from his point of view), square/circle, and literally 'is' or 'isn't'. So a statement like 'positive left square' means there IS a SQUARE in his LEFT hand. You then have a period of time to decide how many of the images this combination of statements is true for. In each of the three rounds, this period of time gets shorter.
Once I'd established a system, this was more straightforward. I always worked out what should be in the right hand then concentrated at the right hand. So if it said 'positive left square', I'd look for the ones that had a circle in the right hand. You have a few seconds after hearing the statement before you see the image, during which time you can sort out in your head what you're looking for. I also found it helped to put myself in the man's position in my brain and 'feel' which hand the shape was in if I got confused. But finding a system that works for you is the key, I think.
*Looking for a shape in an image composed of lines. A shape is shown to you and there are two sqaures divided into patterns by straight lines. You have to say whether the shape can be found amongst the shapes that these lines form (same size and orientation) in neither of them, one of them, the other, or both.
I found that this got easier as my eye got tuned into it. The thing that made it easier was realising that I could look at the bit of the shape that is not perpendicular, study the angle of the slope and length of the line, and then transfer my eye into the images above. Much easier to pick out a shape or say for sure that it isn't there if a slope of the same depth is sought. I think most people realised you need to identify a distictive bit to narrow your search.
*Guiding an 'aeroplane' through a series of boxes (like an ILS apparently - not that I've ever flown an ILS!).
The only thing I would say here is they really mean that the joystick is sensitive - they emphasise it lots of times. The first time I did it, I overreacted and it went all over the place, totally out of control. You are not given a chance to try out the response of the joystick beforehand on this one. The aim is to improve each time. I have never used a joystick before (deprived childhood!
) and I think this is where I really fell down. I got the hang of it subsequently, but my score was still low. While these are natural abilities, etc, etc, maybe an hour or two in an arcade might just help you get the feel for this sort of thing, I don't know! (Others mentioned rudder pedals on this thread, but they seem to have done away with these.)
*Identifying shapes within a grid that are identical to the shape shown at the beginning of the row and the colour at the head of the column in which they appear.
I didn't find this too bad, but I did accidentally click where I didn't mean to once or twice; a daft, avoidable mistake! I found it easiest to scan the images and look at the colours first: keep scanning, keep checking that they don't match. When a colour does match, you can then check the shape. Seemed to work OK for me, apart from the daft moments... but then, I didn't get through! (
)*Finally, back to centering the two lines again. However, this time, you are given other tasks to do simultaneously. The first is hearing a sequence of numbers, counting backwards, and you identify moments when the sequence changes. The second is to hear a shape and colour read out and key into the pad the colour and number superimposed on it if you see it appear.
With the number counting, it seems to help to hear the next in the sequence in your head before it comes, then if it's anything different you can hit the button before working out what the new sequence is.
With the shapes, I tried to keep an eye out for the colour in my peripheral vision and look properly when the colour came up. Actually keying it in means taking your eyes of the two lines, which is hard (there was usually an accompanying wobble when I did it!
).Finally, you are asked to do all three at the same time. This is just overload really and, for the first time, most people's 'misses' seemed to outnumber their 'hits' (judging from chats afterwards). I decided to concentrate primarily on centering the two lines and just do my best with the other two and I think it could have been worse. Might turn out I'm wrong when I get the feedback, but it helped me not get fixated on one thing to do it that way.
This was my experience of the tests. I didn't get through and suspect did quite badly on some, but nonetheless I hope it is an interesting read for people that have not yet taken them.
The maths questions, 15 in 15 minutes, were fine for a numerate grown-up (again, pending feedback!). I practised this and I think that helped. Long division, long multiplication and proportions/conversions are particularly handy.
Group discussion was a little frustrating because people were focussed on appearing to be impressive interactors and not actually too concerned with the nature of the discussion itself. On a couple of occasions it felt to me that things I said were not really picked up on, because people were trying to jump in with reasoned argument! And as we HAD to reach a consensus, of course, it became a muddy compromise!
Good luck to 1pudding1 in the next stage (I was in the red group btw) and to everyone else.
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Postscript to above essay!
Well! It would seem I was way out about my failings. I had really thought that I'm OK on multitasking and info processing and if anything let me down it would be my levels of physical capability.
Judging by the feedback I just received, it would appear that I'm an average handler and information processor and below-average at dealing with a high workload. They seem to think I would struggle with a busy cockpit. However, this really does disagree with my experiences, well, all my life really - including learning to fly, when combining flying, navigation and RT crossing a busy MATZ, for example, was less of a problem than getting to grips with the final stages of landing.
I suppose the test must look for something specific to the commercial flight deck, which, not having experienced, I don't know about. Or maybe it was simply that it was the last of the tests and, not having had time for breakfast (which I NEVER miss usually!), my blood sugar was getting low by then. Who knows!
I guess I should rethink my plans on the basis of this.
Judging by the feedback I just received, it would appear that I'm an average handler and information processor and below-average at dealing with a high workload. They seem to think I would struggle with a busy cockpit. However, this really does disagree with my experiences, well, all my life really - including learning to fly, when combining flying, navigation and RT crossing a busy MATZ, for example, was less of a problem than getting to grips with the final stages of landing.
I suppose the test must look for something specific to the commercial flight deck, which, not having experienced, I don't know about. Or maybe it was simply that it was the last of the tests and, not having had time for breakfast (which I NEVER miss usually!), my blood sugar was getting low by then. Who knows!
I guess I should rethink my plans on the basis of this.
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They are looking for people who pose the minimum risk to training - and they will set a very high standard based on their tests. They can't select everybody, so only a top % will get through. This doesn't mean you have to chuck it in, but it will serve as a test to your determination, since you might have to go down the more tricky route of self funded training.
Learn and move on.
Learn and move on.
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Please can someone who is attending phase 3 on Monday 16th August, please PM at [email protected].
Thanks in advance.
Thanks in advance.
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This is a link to a review of the Katana's CTC McAlpine use in NZ for basic training...for anyone like me who's only just at Stage 1a it's a great way to jinx the whole process by looking this far ahead... 
www.philip.greenspun.com/flying/diamond-katana
The review is on both the DA-20 and DA-40 (link at bottom of page) and is written by a student pilot in 2002 but I assume the aircraft at CTC will be similar.
It's very interesting to read about the aircraft, especially little things like when you go into a turn, you can neutralise the stick and you retain bank angle, as opposed to a Piper Arrow or C-172 etc where you need to keep the yoke angled throughout the turn.
Even from the very beginning CTC ensure you're trained on basic aircraft that mimic certain characteristics of airliners...good to know i suppose.
They also use the Beechcraft Duchess, as do a LOT of flying schools in the US. Regarded as a "hard to find" aircraft by one school, it's been around since the 70's but still has a reputation as a fantastic multi-engine trainer.
Also just found this interesting little snippet in regard to Ryanair sponshorship schemes:
"Once you have gained your Frozen ATPL (£45k-£60k_company offers facility to join and you pay for Type Rating (circa £20k) on a jet aircraft._ If they consider you suitable a job may be offered. Has some partnership/placement arrangements with training providers such as OAT, CTC, Global Training Solutions. _ " - source http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:P...&ie=UTF-8.</a>
Yet another sign they could be on the "soon to be announced" list of airlines joining the CTC McAlpine Cadetchip Scheme? Could just be in regard to the CTC ATP scheme though.
Anyway, hope this is of interest to you all.
Regards,
Simon.
www.philip.greenspun.com/flying/diamond-katana
The review is on both the DA-20 and DA-40 (link at bottom of page) and is written by a student pilot in 2002 but I assume the aircraft at CTC will be similar.
It's very interesting to read about the aircraft, especially little things like when you go into a turn, you can neutralise the stick and you retain bank angle, as opposed to a Piper Arrow or C-172 etc where you need to keep the yoke angled throughout the turn.
Even from the very beginning CTC ensure you're trained on basic aircraft that mimic certain characteristics of airliners...good to know i suppose.
They also use the Beechcraft Duchess, as do a LOT of flying schools in the US. Regarded as a "hard to find" aircraft by one school, it's been around since the 70's but still has a reputation as a fantastic multi-engine trainer.
Also just found this interesting little snippet in regard to Ryanair sponshorship schemes:
"Once you have gained your Frozen ATPL (£45k-£60k_company offers facility to join and you pay for Type Rating (circa £20k) on a jet aircraft._ If they consider you suitable a job may be offered. Has some partnership/placement arrangements with training providers such as OAT, CTC, Global Training Solutions. _ " - source http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:P...&ie=UTF-8.</a>
Yet another sign they could be on the "soon to be announced" list of airlines joining the CTC McAlpine Cadetchip Scheme? Could just be in regard to the CTC ATP scheme though.
Anyway, hope this is of interest to you all.
Regards,
Simon.
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Lol @ Mooney12, no love lost between you and MOL is there? I completely understand where you are coming from though. I feel the same way as you. Cp19 waits with baited breath.
Alex
Alex
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I just found it interesting to see "Ryanair" and "sponsorship" in the same sentence. It was on the BALPA site so that's what made me take notice.
It wouldn't be a huge surprise if they did join. They've committed to Boeing for 737-800's for the forseeable future, 100 on order since mid-2003, delivery already well underway, slowly gonna phase out the 15-200's they've had for years as well as the 6-300's they got when they took over Buzz. All about minimal maintenance etc.
Did you read that article in the UK Sunday Mirror about them not having seat pockets or reclining seats (I like that idea actually) to minimise cleaning (and thus turnaround time) and seat maintenance? Gonna charge for using the overhead bins as well if they get it approved.
(I'm sure this has been discussed in other forums, my apologies for mentioning it here again)
I think the most interesting aspect is the competitiveness between Ryanair and Easyjet. Ever look at the news section of Ryanair.com? Every month, they publish performance comparison reports and Ryanair come out on top each time. (If their figures are to be believed, and why shouldn't they?)
It'd be VERY interesting to see EZY's reaction if FR did join.
Still, if they offered me a job I'd take it, as long as the pay was in line with EZY and TCX.
Anyone else waiting to hear back on Stage 1a? Only sent mine last Friday (13/08/2004) so not expecting reply til mid-week, but like people on the earlier schemes, it'd be good to know where people are at.
Simon.
It wouldn't be a huge surprise if they did join. They've committed to Boeing for 737-800's for the forseeable future, 100 on order since mid-2003, delivery already well underway, slowly gonna phase out the 15-200's they've had for years as well as the 6-300's they got when they took over Buzz. All about minimal maintenance etc.
Did you read that article in the UK Sunday Mirror about them not having seat pockets or reclining seats (I like that idea actually) to minimise cleaning (and thus turnaround time) and seat maintenance? Gonna charge for using the overhead bins as well if they get it approved.
(I'm sure this has been discussed in other forums, my apologies for mentioning it here again)
I think the most interesting aspect is the competitiveness between Ryanair and Easyjet. Ever look at the news section of Ryanair.com? Every month, they publish performance comparison reports and Ryanair come out on top each time. (If their figures are to be believed, and why shouldn't they?)
It'd be VERY interesting to see EZY's reaction if FR did join.
Still, if they offered me a job I'd take it, as long as the pay was in line with EZY and TCX.
Anyone else waiting to hear back on Stage 1a? Only sent mine last Friday (13/08/2004) so not expecting reply til mid-week, but like people on the earlier schemes, it'd be good to know where people are at.
Simon.