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Looking for a honest opinion

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Looking for a honest opinion

Old 3rd Oct 2019, 11:03
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Jun 2019
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Looking for a honest opinion

Good morning folks !

I would like to ask a personal opinion to people.
I don't want to write 100 pages about my history, but now I have to take a decision, that I don't know if it is worthy or not.
My heart says to "go" but I'm not sure if I'm taking the right "path".

Because the market now is not really good for what concerning new fresh pilots, and I sent thousands of application, maybe in the wrong period, when RYR was leaving people at home, and when other airlines were taking pilots from companies went bankrupt, etc. etc, now I'm looking for a programme that "offers" A320 TR and line training.
You might be thinking "look another guy going to P2F", my real question is can it be considered a P2F scheme, when they provide the line training ?
The reason why I'm asking this question is because, I'm not really paying to fly, because during the line training I'm still a "student", there is an instructor with me and a safety pilot, so the company has a high cost on that flight.
Different story could be told in case I'm conducting an airplane in normal operation, being a "full" first officer.
I know that should be the hiring company to provide the TR and the line training, but unfortunally we are facing a weird period.

I've seen loads of MPLs programs, with exorbitant prices, in CAE / CTC, much much more than conventional modular/integrated courses, so are those courses inclusive of a P2F in disguise ?
I'm my opinion yes.
I know, they guarantee the job at the end, so there is a valid reason to spend that amount of money, but again what I'm doing out in the open, MPLs cadets are doing secretly.
I've noticed by flipping through the forums, that P2F is considerend the problem of aviation, and people paying for these schemes are like the aviation "demons" that destroy the market.
Ok, but in my very personal opinion, airlines that open their own academies, looking for 150k to get the job, is the same dish.
For this reason now people doing their own journey, by choosing the school, sending applications, and looking for interviews themselves are screwed in this market.
So it looks like that I'm making my own MPL, without anything guarantee of course, but it's still my choice to take this risk.

What do you think ?
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 13:18
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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Originally Posted by Hogos View Post
.You might be thinking "look another guy going to P2F", my real question is can it be considered a P2F scheme, when they provide the line training ?
Yes. And to be honest it's quite the definition of P2F.

Originally Posted by Hogos View Post
I've seen loads of MPLs programs, with exorbitant prices, in CAE / CTC, much much more than conventional modular/integrated courses, so are those courses inclusive of a P2F in disguise ?
Officially no. If the HB is done on a MEP no, otherwise I'd consider them as P2F even if they DON'T have a guaranteed job.

Originally Posted by Hogos View Post
making my own MPL
This is pure BS. You'd be P2F, not "your own MPL".
As of today MPLs are company specific, so "your own MPL" makes no sense at all.
P2F is a legitimate choice, but at least be honest and call it for what it is...otherwise I could say:"I have 1500 hours in this company, all paid by myself, but that's not P2F because I'm training to become an airline captain".
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 14:42
  #3 (permalink)  

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G'day Hogos,
That "offer", does it come with paid employment at the end of your training? If no, it's definitely P2F. No question.
An MPL candidate is definitely paying over the odds, but once they are flying for an airline, they should be being paid.
Don't confuse with paying to train for a license versus paying to sit in the RHS of an airline. That position should only be filled by someone earning an income.
You've got the license, respect it.
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Old 4th Oct 2019, 10:35
  #4 (permalink)  
 
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Tagged schemes at CAE & L3 are expensive, but they come with job offers. Youíre still paying for your initial licence, and perhaps a type rating. But, you have a guaranteed job afterwards. Definitely not P2F.

Even paying for a type rating comes with a job offer. Youíre not paying to fly. Youíve paid for a type rating, but the airline is paying you to fly.

Paying for a type rating, line training, and 1500 hours (or whatever it is), with no job offer at the end is definitely P2F. Youíre not ďmaking your own MPLĒ. Youíre paying for the privilege of sitting in the right hand seat, when the airline should be paying you. Youíre practically free of charge, easy, and willing. When youíve got the hours you paid for, theyíll get rid of you and bring in the next customer. Itís a horribly abusive system.

Itís not an extension of your training either, as you put it. Youíre flying a commercial aircraft, at a profit to your master. Youíre not in training, youíre working. Youíre paying to work. As soon as you sit in the RHS on your first day of line training, youíre working. They pay you to do that. Like itís been said, you have the licence. Respect it.

It sounds to me like youíre trying to justify your decision to go P2F. I completely understand that options for newly-qualified pilots may be a bit dry as of late. Especially with Ryanair closing itís recruitment doors, and the thousand or so experienced Thomas Cook, XL, Aigle Azur, and Adria pilots now on the market. Please keep your head held high, see the reality, and stop telling yourself what you want to hear.
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Old 4th Oct 2019, 11:14
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Originally Posted by Rottweiler22 View Post
Tagged schemes at CAE & L3 are expensive, but they come with job offers. Youíre still paying for your initial licence, and perhaps a type rating. But, you have a guaranteed job afterwards. Definitely not P2F.
I disagree. 120.000Ä for a CPL is not justifiable unless you use a MEP for the HB.
"Tagged" schemes DON'T guarantee a job, but "the opportunity to fly for the airline if they'll need pilots by the end of your training". There's NO and I repeat NOT A SINGLE cadet scheme which guarantees a job from the start of your training (felt on my own skin unfortunately).

So if the HB is on a SEP, you'll be paying 120+25(TR) thousands euros for your training plus "the opportunity" to fly for that airline. Well, that's pretty near P2F to my eyes, especially considering there are pure P2F schemes less expensive than that...
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Old 4th Oct 2019, 12:20
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I completely agree the MPLs are painfully expensive. Personally, I think that over the last 15 years cadets have set their stall that they are willing to pay over the odds to get into the RHS of an Airbus. You canít blame the schools for charging it. £38,500 for an A320 type rating is extortionate. CAE & L3 must be laughing all the way to the bank. You could argue that paying for ridiculously overpriced training is P2F. Personally, I look at them as ďpremiumĒ courses, where the size of your wallet is the selection process.

I look at P2F as paying for a type rating, line training, and X amount of hours with no job offer at the end. Purely for the purpose of improving your employability.

I agree there are no guarantees in aviation. Iíve also felt that myself, losing my job as a cadet. So my correct wording should have been ďa conditional job offer, providing training is completed to a satisfactory standard, and there is a demandĒ.
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Old 4th Oct 2019, 15:17
  #7 (permalink)  
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I partially agree with the reply of Rottweiler22 , but bulldog89 has nailed the focus of my question.
Lets call what I'm gonna do P2F.
What I'm trying to say is that, if, for some reasons, P2F has been pointed as unethical (not by you, but people in generals), why should an MPL be ?
In my opinion there are a lot of P2F in disguise ! (bear in mind, I've nothing again MPLs).
I've seen airlines with self sponsored TR, where at the end of it they will take you in consideration for a job. Yes, but they want the money immediately.

Let's say for instance that the company will hire you after the TR. They ask for 38K for something that could be made with 25k. I'm doing the TR and line training elsewhere with 35k.
It's the same thing under another name.
The company is only making the gesture to pay you during the line training, but you have already paid 10k/15k more that the real course price !!
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Old 4th Oct 2019, 15:54
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thanks people for not crucifying the OP as in any other thread when p2f is slightly mentioned.

I can understand OP's side of the story, however I think by doing these we just increase how much money management can suck from us and the industry taking advantage of how much we all love flying.
But I agree with Hogos in that these big academies are just p2f . if you are deciding between going to l3 or the like.. to end up with 170 h/200h? in their integrated or going modular, getting 500h In a jet for the same price as the expensive school (700 hours total) . It makes more sense the later and gives you better experience.

​​​​​​ if there is p2f scheeme where you can choose rosters, bases etc.. basically when to work thus being able to work in another job while building experience in these schemes. It might even be a good idea for some people who make a lot of money in their not flying job, but of course one cannot forget point 1, managent and the executives will gain from our dream and this we shouldnt tolerate.




Last edited by turbopropmike; 4th Oct 2019 at 22:02.
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Old 4th Oct 2019, 16:59
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Originally Posted by Hogos View Post
I partially agree with the reply of Rottweiler22 , but bulldog89 has nailed the focus of my question.
Lets call what I'm gonna do P2F.
What I'm trying to say is that, if, for some reasons, P2F has been pointed as unethical (not by you, but people in generals), why should an MPL be ?
In my opinion there are a lot of P2F in disguise ! (bear in mind, I've nothing again MPLs).
I've seen airlines with self sponsored TR, where at the end of it they will take you in consideration for a job. Yes, but they want the money immediately.

Let's say for instance that the company will hire you after the TR. They ask for 38K for something that could be made with 25k. I'm doing the TR and line training elsewhere with 35k.
It's the same thing under another name.
The company is only making the gesture to pay you during the line training, but you have already paid 10k/15k more that the real course price !!
It i unethethical and not right because you are sitting in somebody's place that used to be there and was paid to be there. You are putting someone out of work because you're willing to pay instead of being pay. It's not an aeroclub.
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Old 4th Oct 2019, 18:11
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
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In reality its all Pay To Fly unless someone pays for you from PPL-ATPL. Its life in general the more money you have the easier it is (not always), if the option you have is the only one and you can afford it, go for it!

Your NOT guaranteed a job, after TCX NO ONE is safe, your only as good as your notice period and in the case of TCX this does not apply.

My advice get a niche skill so that you can start your own business, be your own boss and earn what YOU need WHEN you need it....easier said than done!
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Old 4th Oct 2019, 23:07
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Originally Posted by Bryan_Air View Post
In reality its all Pay To Fly unless someone pays for you from PPL-ATPL. Its life in general the more money you have the easier it is (not always), if the option you have is the only one and you can afford it, go for it!
Your NOT guaranteed a job, after TCX NO ONE is safe, your only as good as your notice period and in the case of TCX this does not apply.
What does TCX mean? (sorry I don't know this)

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Old 4th Oct 2019, 23:23
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I don't know if it is mentioned by any one else but line training is normally 4 sectors with a safety pilot, after that it's just you and the training Captain with an aircraft full of passengers who are paying to fly somewhere. Part of their ticket price SHOULD be paying your salary. The company are operating that flight to provide a service and make a profit, it is not like your previous training where the flight was operated entirely for your benefit.

If the original poster has really sent thousands of CV's and applications without response or success have they considered they might be doing something wrong as hiring as been good over the last few years. Is it worth considering attending an Airline application/interview preparation course to see if you can make your applications stand out, this will cost you just a few hundred €. I have never personally been on one as I got a job within three months but a friend of mine did and found it very helpful in getting in to DHL.

Lap800, TCX refers to Thomas Cook airlines who went bankrupt the other week.
​​​​​​

Last edited by Council Van; 4th Oct 2019 at 23:45.
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Old 5th Oct 2019, 02:06
  #13 (permalink)  
 
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@Hogos: I believe the best option would be to try to find some more easy to access flying job if it is not easy to get an airline job as the first flying job. If you do not wish for example to get an FI rating to teach as an instructor then there are different advertisements about jobs for different turboprops used for business I even saw one advertisement for a commercial Cessna 172/182 pilot flying at the German coast. I believe the point is to keep flying instead of sitting idle.

As for P2F well if people pay 100 000 Euro ++ only for 0-ATPL in some place with a fancy name then its totally understandable that someone else rather pay for example 80 000 Euro for modular 0-ATPL + TR and hours on jet aircraft. The point is that its hopefully possible to stop at paying 40 000 Euro (+possible type rating) and instead become for example FI or try to get some of the different other flying jobs to improve the CV.... but if someone want it quickly (and miss out on flying different aircraft and enjoying different kinds of flights) then its their choice. But at least someone should try first the "front door" to all airlines in the whole Europe before being sure that it is really necessary to pay for line training.

I do actually believe part of the people paying for the first airline pilot experience pay before they try everything possible. Or maybe they believe that they will fail before even trying. Since I saw a lot of people right after getting their CPL(A) with IR/ME/PBN + MCC/JOC, getting an airline job immediately (last persons got jobs at LOT) plus I heard about one instructor who could get a job at Regional Jet but did not want to actually (instructor salary is probably higher, but still it was a job on a jet aircraft where the airline is paying the pilot + paying for type rating). So the amount of people who pay themselves instead of being paid (even if its not a great salary) would suggest that people are really not trying all their options before they believe its necessary to pay.
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Old 5th Oct 2019, 13:44
  #14 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
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Originally Posted by Council Van View Post
I don't know if it is mentioned by any one else but line training is normally 4 sectors with a safety pilot, after that it's just you and the training Captain with an aircraft full of passengers who are paying to fly somewhere. Part of their ticket price SHOULD be paying your salary. The company are operating that flight to provide a service and make a profit, it is not like your previous training where the flight was operated entirely for your benefit.
​​​​​​
Council Van Is entirely right in saying you as a junior FO are earning your crust in the RHS with a training Captain; you are entitled to be paid a salary.

The Regulators need to introduce the banning of (blatant) P2F schemes. The beancounters needs to be involved to ensure that new anti avoidance legislation is being complied with.
Appropriate penalties for organisations / airlines ďat itĒ.

Like tax planning schemes requiring approval by HMRC (UK), any payments made by pilots to airlines for training need to be approved by the Regulator. Paying a sensible amount up front for the type rating ~YES. Reasonable salary reduction where the company pays for the type rating ~YES.
BUT ideally an old style bonding scheme for type & line training.
Once line training commences, a salary with no P2F impact is only fair and equitable.
​​
The number of sectors, with a covering FO (safety pilot) does vary with airlines. 4 sectors may well be the minimum number required.
Emirates (for new fATPL students) required sixty sectors with a safety pilot, with a minimum of 120 sectors prior to the line check or did so until a few years ago.
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Old 5th Oct 2019, 13:52
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I find it difficult to believe that people have genuinely been trying for 6 years to get a job and still havenít got one.

When you are trying to get your first job you should be applying for absolutely anything, anywhere in the world; even if it means flying a washing machine in the back end of Asia - you need the experience! If you are going to be a job snob then accept your unemployed fate.

If that doesnít suit you and you need to be closer to home for whatever reason; then go get an instructors rating. You can keep the day job, be at home with the boss & kids and instruct in your spare time putting meaningful hours in the log book and staying current. Within a couple of years you have enough hours to instruct at an integrated school and can afford to quit the day job. By this stage, if you havenít already got an airline job through your experience and networking, you soon will.

Folks you'll be glad to know I'm not charging anything for this advice unlike these interview courses that treat you like cash cows just like a lot of the flying schools.
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Old 6th Oct 2019, 20:18
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Originally Posted by bulldog89 View Post


I disagree. 120.000Ä for a CPL is not justifiable unless you use a MEP for the HB.
"Tagged" schemes DON'T guarantee a job, but "the opportunity to fly for the airline if they'll need pilots by the end of your training". There's NO and I repeat NOT A SINGLE cadet scheme which guarantees a job from the start of your training (felt on my own skin unfortunately).

So if the HB is on a SEP, you'll be paying 120+25(TR) thousands euros for your training plus "the opportunity" to fly for that airline. Well, that's pretty near P2F to my eyes, especially considering there are pure P2F schemes less expensive than that...
What do you mean by "felt on your own skin" what happened? please share with us
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Old 7th Oct 2019, 08:52
  #17 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
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Originally Posted by bulldog89 View Post


I disagree. 120.000€ for a CPL is not justifiable unless you use a MEP for the HB.
"Tagged" schemes DON'T guarantee a job, but "the opportunity to fly for the airline if they'll need pilots by the end of your training". There's NO and I repeat NOT A SINGLE cadet scheme which guarantees a job from the start of your training (felt on my own skin unfortunately).

So if the HB is on a SEP, you'll be paying 120+25(TR) thousands euros for your training plus "the opportunity" to fly for that airline. Well, that's pretty near P2F to my eyes, especially considering there are pure P2F schemes less expensive than that...
Under 120,000€ for whitetail fATPL customers is about the going rate for an Integrated Course on an all inclusive deal lasting about 14 months. Included are the accommodation & food, everything you need for licence issue provided first time passes in everything is achieved. Even the soap powder for your washing.
Depending upon the benevolence of the airline, the type rating is an old fashioned bond style arrangement.

The Modular route is clearly cheaper, but gives you the option of full time or part time. Get the timing right under 20 months?
Probably under £50k, but training element only. Add accommodation & food.

As for the MPL route ( through an airline scheme ) similar price as fATPL up to but not including the type rating. Ideally the type rating is bonded, and a normal salary once line flying commences. No P2F bollocks.

If the UK trainees really want to improve matters, persuade the UK politicians to change the 20%VAT rate charged on training. Preferably 0% / exempt. Write to your MPs after the imminent election & ChEx.
Get BALPA interested.

Last edited by parkfell; 7th Oct 2019 at 09:55. Reason: Estimate of £50k modular route
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Old 7th Oct 2019, 12:07
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Originally Posted by MaverickPrime View Post
I find it difficult to believe that people have genuinely been trying for 6 years to get a job and still havenít got one.

When you are trying to get your first job you should be applying for absolutely anything, anywhere in the world; even if it means flying a washing machine in the back end of Asia - you need the experience! If you are going to be a job snob then accept your unemployed fate.

If that doesnít suit you and you need to be closer to home for whatever reason; then go get an instructors rating. You can keep the day job, be at home with the boss & kids and instruct in your spare time putting meaningful hours in the log book and staying current. Within a couple of years you have enough hours to instruct at an integrated school and can afford to quit the day job. By this stage, if you havenít already got an airline job through your experience and networking, you soon will.

Folks you'll be glad to know I'm not charging anything for this advice unlike these interview courses that treat you like cash cows just like a lot of the flying schools.

I agree with the first bit about any job anywhere. Problem today is if you screw up/ donít get a Ryanair or easyJet interview there ainít a whole bunch else to try.

I donít agree with the instructing idea. The course is expensive, the pay is poor , especially in winter. I did five years instructing and ultimately no one gave a toss about my hours in a Cessna/ piper.

instructing at a commercial school pays more, but it isnít an airline job, and Iíd imagine youíd soon get bitter about all the 18 year old superheroes you have to deal with who may well make it to RHS before you.

Ē Networking ď. Never seen that work at all, I think the days of meeting a management pilot on the golf course and getting a job offer may be over...
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Old 7th Oct 2019, 14:18
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If VAT was removed from commercial training, would the large integrated schools pass the savings on? There seems to be no limit to the number of youngsters with well-off parents who have "named their price" so to speak, many of them are presumably taken in by the marketing talk.

Ultimately, if P2F is to be ended and T&Cs restored, their needs to be a reduction in the number of new entrants to the job market. In the US, the 1500 hour rule has seemed to be effective, however there's not enough GA in the UK/Europe to necessarily make it work over here. Perhaps a requirement to pass a DLR-style aptitude test before sitting the ATPL exams would be more effective, with a waiver for ex-military folk or those with thousands of hours gained elsewhere.
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Old 7th Oct 2019, 15:31
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
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I donít really think P2F will ever end ... thereís either loads of newbies looking for a job .... or a recession ... or both to fuel it .

i remember 2 of my cohort paying for a 737 rating and that was ... 1995 !
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