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Virtual Aviation & Titan Airways Cadet Scheme.

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Virtual Aviation & Titan Airways Cadet Scheme.

Old 23rd Aug 2017, 07:48
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: FLSomething
Posts: 35
My apologies, I misunderstood. I thought you were suggesting that we arbitrarily strip the flying privileges of thousands of licence holders away and restrict them to flying washing machines for three years because it would enhance safety through gaining experience. You are in fact suggesting we do this not for safety but purely to leverage higher salaries from airline bosses. Whilst we're it at, bus drivers must spend three years driving taxis and doctors must spend three years working as porters as well right? Do you really, honestly think this is something the CAA would do or should even consider???

I take it you're currently over 1500 hours and job seeking? I can't see any other possibly motivation for this arguement.
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 11:11
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Somerset
Posts: 411
At the risk of getting back on topic.

Sounds like an interesting scheme.

What happens if someone has already completed the VA MCC and JOC, are they expected to pay for another course if they pass through the Phase 1 selection process?

Are all graduates of the VA MCC and JOC course in full time flying employment?

If not why donít VA simply recommend some of their better graduates of the MCC and JOC course to Titan, who could review their training records and assess them maybe with a basic sim test and interview before offering them the type rating?

A more cynical person might suggest that the above course of action would mean that VA make no money out of the selection process and subsequent MCC and JOC courses.

If you do not already have an MCC or JOC and you were going to do the VA course anyway then itís a no brainer, go for it. If you already have MCC and JOC then thereís the risk of stumping up for a qualification that you already have and not making the grade required during training.

Good luck to those that choose to go ahead and apply.
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 11:56
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Over the rainbow
Posts: 36
some very good points here! maybe VA could answer some of the questions above?
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 12:50
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 377
Nonsense what you suggest. VP.

How should one get 1500 hrs? There is a huge difference in Aviation Business in Europe comparing to USA.

In USA is the General Aviation business a lot bigger. Crop Dusting, Aireal , Observation Flying, Biz Jet Aviation, Instructor jobs. Air Taxi. Not much of that is existing in EU.
If we do the same here, then it would take a painstaking 5-10 yrs to obtain those 1500 hrs.
Do not forget about the loan we have to pay back. That is impossible with wages in these kind of businesses.

Even for many skydive dropping jobs you need like 500 hrs TT.

I understand your point of creating leverage, but I think it wont work.

Also in one blow no more CTC, CAE? Awesome, less FI jobs then. You are creating a bigger problem there.
In USA many students become CFI in the ATO where they did their training. But if you blow away the flight schools then no more jobs he .
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 13:00
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: FLSomething
Posts: 35
Exactly, that's the exact point I made
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 13:04
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Somerset
Posts: 411
Hi P40

With respect, I disagree. At the moment the supply of low hours pilots far exceeds the demand, this keeps T and C low as desperate candidates work for peanuts.

As demand is not going to increase enough to rebalance supply, the only way to rebalance supply and demand is to reduce the supply and that means fewer training schools, it might seem ruthless but that's how it is.

The simple solution to the loan subject is to save hard before starting training and maybe work during training to keep some money coming in.
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 13:07
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 27
So you're suggesting saving up Ä100,000.- before starting your training?
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 13:23
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Somerset
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Flying training does not have to cost that much, personally I did not even start training until I was certain that I had enough saved to pay for all training and support myself during training plus a 15% contingency. That meant being patient, getting off my backside and denying myself luxuries.

Perhaps saving 50% of the cost of training and keeping at least part time employment during training would be prudent and show a degree of due diligence.

I suppose in an ideal world there would be loans available that would not be repaid until the candidate is working and earning over £25k pa (like UK university education loans), unfortunately the real world is not an ideal place.

The ready loans available to people in the past have no doubt help fuel the imbalance between supply and demand, perhaps if loans were less readily available then a better balance could be struck.
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 13:42
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 27
May I ask what you think it has to cost?
I did an integrated course, which might not be the cheapest, but is probably the most efficient.
I guess you did a modular course if you paid a lot less than what i did, but as I have seen so far modular courses are not accepted at a lot of airlines and I'd think they would take more time to complete.

Also if you want to save up the total cost before starting that means you need another education, in The Netherlands this would normally be around 4 years for a Bachelor. If you're quick I'd guess your 22 or 23 when completing that. Then saving up for flight training and doing the flight training itself meaning somewhere in your late twenties/around thirties before starting to apply somewhere. I would still prefer the integrated/financed route...
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 13:55
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 377
In my opinion everyone who wants to do pilot training should do before starting that a study which might function as a backup.

So from 18/19 till 22/23 you go to college or uni. If only from then when getting a job you start to save for 5-10 years you are almost even a bit late with starting aviation career. Then around 30 finished. Then fly 5-10 years this well paid GA stuff and gather slowly hrs means you are around 40 when having 1500 hrs. Let alone the fact that AGAIN there are almost no SEP MEP Biz Jet jobs or FI jobs to gather those hours. As mentioned before. Even for skydive dropping here in Germany they require 500hrs TT.

It took me like 4 years to finally land a skydive dropping job where I am very happy with. This job I do next to my daily job because you cannot life from that money.

My question remains then, HOW TO GET EXPERIENCED WHEN NOT GETTING A CHANCE TO OBTAIN EXPERIENCE?

I do agree that going straight from school to 320 or 737 is not the best transition. Better first some small Aviation, working up to small TP, bigger TP then to Jet, but as said before. Those jobs are extremely rare here in EU.

I also agree that trainings in for instance CAE or a CTC are heavily overpriced. Especially those MCC JOC's.

Back when I started I did Integrated training for 45K euros. TR 737 300-900 plus base and NG Difference Course plus hotel for 16K euros. ( I chose to do TR because the MCC JOC's offered by Kura, CTC are also around 10K. You can say there, that there is a good chance you will get a job at Easy, BACF etc. But still it is a lot of money. Keeping my rating current costs almost same as keeping MEP IR current, but MEP is pretty much useless here in EU because again read above not many jobs like that existent ). But if it was on me, I would have loved to do the road from SEP/MEP, TP to Jet, but investing in a TP rating wasnt much a plan here. ONLY when there would be a job.
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 14:01
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
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I suppose my total training cost was about 50% to 60% of the integrated course, if an individual chooses to do the full time big bucks integrated route then that's their choice and if they get well paid employment with an airline before they have to start paying back the loan then the choice has paid off for them.

However there are plenty of people (integrated and modular) who do get a big loan to fund training and cannot find work after completing the course and the loan company want their money so they either have to find any job that pays enough to service the loan or they lose either their property or (even worse) their parents property that has been put up as security against defaulting on the loan.

My point is that self funding training is a massive gamble with your (or the loan company) money as the stake, and you should never gamble what you cannot afford to lose.

At least if you're spending your own money you know that a loan company is not going to come after you when you qualify and your credit rating is not going to get hammered if you cannot pay back the loan. Personally I cannot imagine the stress of committing to a huge loan and not knowing whether or not I would be able to find work and pay off the loan on completion of the course.

The paradox is that pilots are supposed to be risk adverse but in order to get qualified, many are taking the biggest and riskiest gamble of their lives.
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 14:05
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by P40Warhawk View Post
In my opinion everyone who wants to do pilot training should do before starting that a study which might function as a backup.

So from 18/19 till 22/23 you go to college or uni. If only from then when getting a job you start to save for 5-10 years you are almost even a bit late with starting aviation career. Then around 30 finished. Then fly 5-10 years this well paid GA stuff and gather slowly hrs means you are around 40 when having 1500 hrs. Let alone the fact that AGAIN there are almost no SEP MEP Biz Jet jobs or FI jobs to gather those hours. As mentioned before. Even for skydive dropping here in Germany they require 500hrs TT.
Totally agree on this, I have not yet started my plan b, but I might next year or the year after. I'm pretty sure to be able to do something I like to do with a good salary, but I'm still hoping to live my dream.

I think if I started with this I might have never started flight training, I am happy that I did start with it as plan A.
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 23:14
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 22
Marketing Ploy?

Originally Posted by virtualaviation View Post
Thank you for your positive comments.

The exact number will be confirmed next month but we understand there will be around 6-8 cadet positions in this first intake.

There may well be a lot of applications, but the strength of your application is what will make the difference. Good luck!
Can you please confirm then how many candidates you will accept onto phase 2 of the course knowing that you have roughly 6-8 cadet positions?

I'm absolutely not being critical, just curious, but I expect some will be a little nervous in that you could pass everyone through phase 1 that applied, just for 100's of pilots to cough up for the MCC-JOC and only 6-8 coming away with a job. Could be a good marketing strategy for VA in my opinion and "selling" you an MCC-JOC with the prospect of a practically non-existent job. Surely if a candidate makes it to phase 2 there should be some security of employment after forking out for the MCC-JOC?

Last edited by ghandou; 24th Aug 2017 at 06:11.
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Old 24th Aug 2017, 05:02
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Belgium
Posts: 158
I am interested by the reply as it does scares me too. Budget is short !
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Old 24th Aug 2017, 21:07
  #35 (permalink)  
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Apologies for the thread drift but I have a few responses to give.

P40, no one suggested the hours requirement should be set as high as 1500, as said in the UK CAA pre-JAA days self improvers (the equivalent of modular had to obtain 700 hours to obtain a full CPL), so somewhere between 700 -1500. Secondly P40 I see your location is Germany, apologies I know little of the German GA scene, but I would say while the GA scene in the UK is not as big as the US, I would say there is still moderate enough GA scene here in the UK to support an hours build requirement. There is in-fact quite a demand for instructors at the moment. Secondly if OAA and CTC went under the subsequent demand for modular training would soak up the instructor work force. OAA and CTC are not the only employers of instructors, there multitude of small flying schools across the country (in the UK) are probably where I would the majority of instructors work anyway. CTC and OAA wouldn't go under they would revise the business model. You are right we will never see such a thing in Europe because the large ATOs have too much influence and money talks.


So none of your counter arguments hold as far as the UK is concerned. No I am not suggesting this from self interest, airline flying doesn't interest me it is repetitious and exhausting.

Variable Pitch: Actually there is a lot of benefit in all industries of experiencing the working field from a lower stand point, so yes a trainee Doctor who has spent some time as a porter would have a better understanding of the workings of the Health service. Look at Train drivers, the unions have artificially protected the conditions hence Train Driver salaries have remained high. So while the FAA 1500 rule was introduced in the interest of safety

Mlambin, Ghandou, it is a gamble if you can't afford to lose 7k then don't do it. 7k would be better spent on something that you know will gain you something useful.

Sorry but if the scheme really had the candidates interest at core intent, the price of the JOC and MCC should have been enveloped into the subsequent training bond.

So while it may represent a good opportunity the underlying tone is revenue generation for a third party.
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Old 25th Aug 2017, 12:08
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,909
So while the FAA 1500 rule was introduced in the interest of safety
It wasn't! It was a knee-jerk reaction by a bunch of politicians so that they (US Sentate/Congress) would appear to the general public to seem to be doing something after the Colgan crash - despite both pilots involved having well in excess of 1500 hours.
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Old 25th Aug 2017, 19:44
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 22
Posts: 70
Originally Posted by ghandou View Post
Can you please confirm then how many candidates you will accept onto phase 2 of the course knowing that you have roughly 6-8 cadet positions?

I'm absolutely not being critical, just curious, but I expect some will be a little nervous in that you could pass everyone through phase 1 that applied, just for 100's of pilots to cough up for the MCC-JOC and only 6-8 coming away with a job. Could be a good marketing strategy for VA in my opinion and "selling" you an MCC-JOC with the prospect of a practically non-existent job. Surely if a candidate makes it to phase 2 there should be some security of employment after forking out for the MCC-JOC?
I think it might be worth having another read of the terms.

There's also a Q&A video on our Facebook page, with a member of Titan management answering viewers questions.

Nobody will need to speculatively book an MCC/JOC.

The 6-8 cadets selected in this intake will know they have been chosen, and will have a job offer from Titan BEFORE undertaking MCC/JOC and then TR.

The whole purpose of this scheme is to start a move towards less upfront risk on the part of the individual.
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Old 25th Aug 2017, 21:16
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 22
Posts: 70
Originally Posted by magicmick View Post
At the risk of getting back on topic.

Sounds like an interesting scheme.

What happens if someone has already completed the VA MCC and JOC, are they expected to pay for another course if they pass through the Phase 1 selection process?

Are all graduates of the VA MCC and JOC course in full time flying employment?

If not why don’t VA simply recommend some of their better graduates of the MCC and JOC course to Titan, who could review their training records and assess them maybe with a basic sim test and interview before offering them the type rating?

A more cynical person might suggest that the above course of action would mean that VA make no money out of the selection process and subsequent MCC and JOC courses.

If you do not already have an MCC or JOC and you were going to do the VA course anyway then it’s a no brainer, go for it. If you already have MCC and JOC then there’s the risk of stumping up for a qualification that you already have and not making the grade required during training.

Good luck to those that choose to go ahead and apply.
Thanks for your comment - and for getting things back on topic

This programme is intended for pilots without an MCC qualification.

For now at least, a fair percentage of those applying will have an MCC qualification already. That’s because schemes like this are still the exception rather than the norm, so most pilots will still go straight from CPL/IR to an MCC/JOC course.

Unfortunately there’s no way around that until schemes like this - hopefully - become more commonplace.

When you ask why Titan don’t simply take graduates of our MCC/JOC course, this is actually how most airlines currently hire cadet pilots - and it’s exactly what we want to change.

Pilots currently invest their own money into an MCC/JOC course - with us or with any other provider - without any guarantee of job at the end. The best will secure a job quickly, but the vast majority of those will still have to cough up £30K+ for a type rating if they want to accept that job.

An obvious exception to this Jet2’s excellent Pilot Apprentice Programme.

For an airline to invest in paying upfront for a type rating and base training, just looking at an individual’s training record and conducting a sim assessment doesn’t give them much security.

In this case, the airline taking control of the selection process at an earlier earlier stage than normal and then overseeing the subsequent comprehensive MCC/JOC training gives them the certainty needed to assume the risk in funding the type rating and base training.

We are hopeful that more airlines will start hiring in this way, and believe it’s in the interest of both the airline and the individual. If this programme is successful, it’s our goal that airlines will start to fund the MCC/JOC training as well as the type rating.

If pilots who have already been through our MCC/JOC (or any other provider’s) want to apply, they are welcome, but they will still need to go through every stage, just a like an applicant without an MCC. Those are the rules of engagement. The airline overseeing this MCC/JOC and having final Skills Test sign-off is key to them funding the TR. This still offers a much lower ‘cost to right hand seat’ than paying £30K+ to an airline for their type rating.

Last edited by virtualaviation; 25th Aug 2017 at 21:59. Reason: typo
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Old 25th Aug 2017, 21:25
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 22
Posts: 70
Originally Posted by Shutdownatpl View Post
some very good points here! maybe VA could answer some of the questions above?
We've just been catching up with some responses.

If you have any specific questions please don't hesitate to ask - in this forum, or in a private message, or by email.

There's also a 30-min Q&A video on our Facebook page, with a member of Titan management answering questions put to him.
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Old 27th Aug 2017, 14:16
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 22
Originally Posted by virtualaviation View Post
I think it might be worth having another read of the terms.

There's also a Q&A video on our Facebook page, with a member of Titan management answering viewers questions.

Nobody will need to speculatively book an MCC/JOC.

The 6-8 cadets selected in this intake will know they have been chosen, and will have a job offer from Titan BEFORE undertaking MCC/JOC and then TR.

The whole purpose of this scheme is to start a move towards less upfront risk on the part of the individual.
Thanks for clearing this all up.

What stuck out was that it says it's a "conditional" job offer before the MCC-JOC. This set off an alarm bell because I was thinking you could offer 100's of candidates conditional offers and get them all to pay for the course. However I now see that the "conditional" part is if things go horribly wrong on the MCC-JOC then of course you would not be expected to give that candidate a job at the end.

I hope this is a success in changing how airlines recruit in the future and applaud you for doing things differently.
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