Let's stand up AGAINST P2F. Sign the petition.

[newb1112]

We're not all cut out to be trolly dollies for several years either (pride, cost of living <> salary or whatever the reason might be)

So you think that there is more pride in paying to get into the RHS, a job 90% of people have to work incredibly hard to get, than in working for an airline as cabin crew?

Unbelievable. Please don't answer, it's rhetorical.

[P40Warhawk]

Cmon. P2F programs, you sign up for program. Do some funny assessment and start ''training''.

After you got your 500 hours , you get kicked out for the next who is willing to pay.

[J74]

P40Warhawk

I agree with you against the P2f scheme but I'd like just to discuss some of your points with some of my ideas.
Besides that is if I understood correctly, you are from Lithuania, ironically where present the BAA, the biggest hungry system looking people to come and pay TR and LT, one of the bigger aviation cancer centred there!

Yes some recruiters dont give a damn about how you obtained your experience, but I heard also more and more recruiters from respectable airlines who seriously not even consider boys and girls who have done P2F. And that comes finally MORE and MORE.

I don't think so, even if I would like to dream that,but if you know , please let me know and write here the names of these companies at least peoples know fact and start to be "afraid" to get involved in these programs.

How do you like it when you got a job with your experience already under your belt, and then you company decides to change course and says,, hey what the hell?

In my experience and what i saw around, believe me your point is valid just for very few companies...believe me, no company fire a valid experience pilot to be replaced with an incompetent pilot. These seats are pre-allocated..
Not all P2f are incompetent....mostly have to pass some real screenings process, and if not you'll be kicked out after a bit if your performance is bad in the simulator or during first flights check!
Look, I don't think Captains like to do the double job and be vigilant all the the time!

And maybe have to work in some country somewhere in the world, where the conditions to live and work are horrible.

Why you are so discriminant versus some countries? anyway I would like to know which are these countries you referred to...
And remember in your point of view, I'm sure i'm working in a " country" but this country believe me give me a respectful contract and they respect pilot position.

Because obtaining your F ATPL is not super hard. Just asks some studying. Also learning to fly is not super hard. As long as you are not retarted and have a bit of hand eye coordination you can obtain your licenses.

Again I disagree with you...
-Atpl subject of course you can memorize the questions, bt then you will do the double work if you land in a job.
-is not some study, oh well depends on how you interpret the verb "to study"
is 14 subject, full of stuff!
Fly is hard...if it wasn't every one could make it, in real just few make it!
and I'm not speaking about medical req. ect....but still lot of pilot, experienced not passing the SIM....so please be more respectful with your words to our and your future profession if you want to do it.
We don't have to degrade everything!
Flying is a skill and require lot of skills!

[J74]

I like your effort and your position againdt P2f but nothing will change i think!
prices are 5 times more than years back, this is a clear chime to understand why that!

And I'm just afraid you'll laughing to yourself and forget your own goal!
Your route and determination are good and hope you get soon the job you desire...but sometimes the same route, close to pilots, is the route bring you far away from the internal position career change!
If I can suggest you, as you mentioned, better ramp agent, dispacher than cabin crew job if you want to make contacts and have more chances to get the flight deck!

[P40Warhawk]

There are some countries in the world where you not wish to be.
And what I meant with country I meant also the bad Terms and Conditions.

I did my training in BAA. The Ab Initio training was all pretty good as far as I have experienced. But yes they also offer P2F programs. Heard about 70K for TR plus LT. I dont like that too about BAA. My training was not even over and one lady at reception was asking me which TR I would choose to do after ab initio training. I said to her. I do that one which my employer chooses me to do and pays for my training.
They offered me also 2 P2F programs after graduation. I said NO to it.

Yes of course you need to have skills, but flying itself is not the only part of being a pilot. Its also about how is your mental capacity. Also in emergency situation. How can you deal with the workload? Can you make decisions in difficult situations?

Recruiters from airlines in EU I am talking about. I cannot tell which ones. But I know something is moving a bit.

In the Airline I work for it happens quit regularly. Upgrades from FA to FO. So I bet on that. I give it some time. It is a good airline to work for with good terms and conditions for its pilots, so its worth the waiting. The future will tell if that was the right gamble.Maybe it pays off or Maybe it never will, but at least I have tried it. But I wont gamble with money in the hope I get better job after P2F. 500 hours on Type is nice, but then you are still competing with many with same TR with 1000's of hours. Why would they take you with 500 hours instead of that HIGHLY experienced other FO with 1000's hours. Only reason which they might take in consideration is MAYBE the pay scale . So again JOBLESS with another 70K minus , plus the debt you already had from initial training.

I am not from Lithuania. I am from the Netherlands.

I keep fighting against it, and will NOT give in to it.
You can say I am naive , or stupid, but its my choice. I also think about my career. Treat others how you would like to get treated yourself.

[J74]

yes understand....
just want to clear more in deep the " country", understand what you mean but I repeat to you, I'm far away from Europe when I work, in a third word country, but they pay my tickets to commute, they give me a house,Sim and medical payed... and give me a decend salary, almost the Captain salary range here in Europe(not counting the biggest national companies)...so as I said before they maybe still a " country" like you said, but I have eveything better than staying in Europe in some companies like SPA, WIZZAIR,RYAN, NAS, and so on....
anyway I hope your effort will be payed back soon or later...
but let me ask something, sound me strange as I see you determined !
why you didn't tried to make some contact on the net and then tried to go outside of Europe and boost your chance to find a job???

I tell you that cause i saw lot of people find their first job like that, and like i did years before.
Of course someone had TR before but others payed at later stage after they secure a job contract.

[P40Warhawk]

Well working in country but good T&C's is then alright.
I meant living and working in ****ty country with even more ****ty Salaries.

I dont need to work particularly in EU. I am willing to work anywhere in the world. Tried many ways of approach to airlines. Different tactics, but just not only sending copy paste CV, but made it specifically for those airlines I applied for.

Nothing worked out. Also offered to work first ground ops in that airline to learn more about that company and showed my willingness of being loyal. Nothing worked so far. But as said. Giving up aint an option for me.

No such thing as impossible.

The Sky ain't my limit. It is my home.

[Tango Romeo A320]

I think that passengers from several European companies should think to use trains or cars instead of planes as these well known companies have p2f guys on the RHS for already several years!
I don't think they are bad pilots... As mentioned earlier they all passed exams, skill tests and assessments plus sim check LPC/OPC.

The scheme itself is not very nice for the pilot community but people having enough funds to do it just do it in order to get the minima.

There are only few companies taking cadets low hours and no jet experience.
And even if you are called by such company and pay for the assessment the job is not even guaranted.

The only possibility is to be at the right place at the right moment and meet the good person!

[Superpilot]

Very respectful to your colleagues in the Cabin. Nice mentality. Would not like to work with people who think like that about their crew. We are all a team. Everyone is as important as the other one. Its Called CRM.

Stop being a chump, the term "Trolly Dolly" isn't that bad and proves nothing about my mentality towards colleagues in the cabin. I was simply making the point that not every one wants to do or can do that job. That's not what we educated ourselves for and that's not what we paid for. The alternatives as you put it:

...there are other jobs which might get you closer to RHS position.
Dispatcher, Ramp Agent. Just a few examples.

You really do live in some kind of fantasy world, for every dispatcher or ramp agent job there are many many more pilot jobs and it's a very poor method of getting "closer to a RHS job" as every tom, dick and harry would do it, if it truly worked.

Yes some recruiters dont give a damn about how you obtained your experience, but I heard also more and more recruiters from respectable airlines who seriously not even consider boys and girls who have done P2F. And that comes finally MORE and MORE.

I provided you real world examples of my job and interview experiences which cannot be unique. All you can throw at me is "I heard this and I heard this".

The rest of your rant is pure BS, I'm not going to respond because you're a little upset. I do however, wish to comment on the below:

...NOT the best pilots sit in RHS but the ones with the biggest wallet

...you can see, with money you can advance.

This is true. Money rules. But guess what, it was MY money, earned with MY own blood, sweat and tears working outside aviation for nearly 10 years. I could've spent that time as a FA but I was wise enough to realise what works. You clearly have your views on what is right and wrong. I'm not saying P2F is right, am simply pointing out that is a viable alternative to what your doing. The idea that we are all spoilt and getting the money from rich daddies because we have no talent is a fantasy of those who cannot afford what it takes.

[Officer Kite]

This thread has rapidly turned into a childish spat from which there will be no clear winner to a neutral observer.

As far as I'm concerned it should end here, if you disagree with P2F and feel that you want to do something (however minor) then sign the petition. If not, then don't sign it. End of.

[P40Warhawk]

All I wanted to do here is promoting Stop Pay to Fly Facebook page and promoting the petition. It is a pitty that we cannot talk to eachother in a normal way.

I am also maybe the blame, but I just say what I think. I am to honest maybe. Straight to the point. Exactly what we are known for > Dutchies.

[lansen]

@P40

I generally support your case. And I respect you for stating out things in your honest way. Though, I have a feeling about you just being too proud about yourself. Also it feels like you are having problems admitting that there actually are quite A LOT of success stories regarding people who chose the p2f way.
In general I believe that everybody eventually will find a flying job. If it is as an FI on Cessnas or on a triple seven in an airline. The point is, how long is one willing to wait for that. I myself am 27, turning 28 this year. If I **** up the Ryanair assessment on thursday, I am actually considering P2F. Why? Because I've seen the success stories first hand. These are not friends friends. These are my friends. People I went to flight school with or people I met on the way through my flight training. One of them, flying a 777 for Qatar Airways, after spending 40k€ for 500 hours on a 73CL in Morocco. Another guy spent 30k€ for 500 hours on an ATR is now flying for LGW on a Dash. Full-time of course, with a very attractive salaries.

So why shouldn't I?

Are really the pilots to blame? All those persons who spend money for p2f?

In my opinion no. It's pax, who are only out for the cheapest tickets. Not caring about what this in the end will do to the business. All those average Joes, flying for 25€ from Stockholm to Milan.
This leaves us, the pilots, with no other choice. Either gambling on getting a wildcard for some hiring airline or actually to continue investing in ourselves and making us more attractive, then the rest who are sitting on their 200-250tt after finishing flight school.

You will never change this trend if you blame the wrong folks. There will always be somebody who pays for this stuff. Not because they do it for fun, but because there is no other choice!

[4Screwaircrew]

I have signed this petition, as a TRE I have had the chance to see the products from a number of these schemes, they have worked hard; but some have no concept of what was required of a line pilot. This is my main objection to these schemes, at some of the airlines no effective training takes place beyond the TR, they sit in a seat for 500 hours and are still not an effective F.O. at the end; yet I have flown with properly trained F.O.s with less than 100 hours on type who were. The properly trained guys and girls will continue to develop and build knowledge, the products of the substandard training regimes will continue to be ballast, struggling to overcome the disadvantage they were put in by going P2F in a system where they flew but were not trained.

Not all schemes are the same and some do provide proper training, however it is my opinion that the industry would be a better place without them.

[P40Warhawk]

Lansen,

I also know of few guys who are now flying proper airlines after doing P2F. Wizz A320, TAP A320 soon A330. One flying in other airline in EU on 777. So yes of course there are many succes stories

And yes of course those people who pay 9 eu for trip London to Girona are also the blame. Somewhere a company has to make money. Or Save money. I completely understand it.

Im really sorry to read that you did not make it with FR . Although you had to pay for Own TR, I dont call that P2F, and in general the conditions are quit ok. Not the best, but with them you can make in quit a short time many flight hours and then you can move on to another company or you stay and make upgrade to CDR.

I really hope you will find something soon.

About myself and my pride. Yes I am someone who does not give up his ideals. And MAYBE it brings me respect and because that a job in the RHS, or maybe it never will bring me anything. But giving up aint an option for me.

Earlier I mentioned that what 4Screw is mentioning again. Some programs maybe very good, but there is also a lot of crap in that market. Its up to you if you consider such path to find a good one. One thing for sure, if you want to go that path, NEVER go via MSD.

Best of the worst are I think Germania or via Eagle Jet some deals. But of course I am not supportive to that as everyone obviously can see from me.

Its up to anyone which path to choose. But I hope somehow that this Cancer will extinguish like it did in for example France. There its Illegal. Same in Australia. In Germany ''only'' 1 does these kind of practices. As mentioned Germania. But hopefully here in Germany it will also be banned.

Because paying 60K for RHS? WTF. That is serious a lot of money. That is even more then what I spend on my initial Ab Initio integrated course.

[P40Warhawk]

Then I missunderstood what you said. Well I really cross my fingers for you Lansen. Because that is one of the better opportunities to get useful flight hours in your logbook, and opening doors for you in the future by prestige airlines.

And your training will be of high quality in CAE.

I also applied in FR, but of course never got an invitation. Though I am still in system. But did not do my training in CTC or OX. So will most probably never happen to receive invitation. But who knows.

[BAe 146-100]

If P40 had the cash for it, he would be doing it, and herein lies why this argument is pointless. All the people I have met and also on here who are against this successful and proven method of advancing yourself up the ladder are in the main the ones who can't afford it, and realistically would snap at the chance to do it if they had that spare 50K lying there, I don't think P40 could look himself with a straight face and say anything but.

But of course he will deny it, and go on another one of his rants, repeating the same stuff about slavery like he seems to do on every post. I guess those ''slaves'' are pretty happy at Qatar and Emirates.

[P40Warhawk]

No I would not lie if I would even then say no to it.

If I would have the money I would still NOT do it. I have strong principles. If you know me, then you would believe me. But this is a forum where you cannot really get to know each other.

If I was just owning lot of money I would buy a plane for myself. Something with pressurized cabin. I have no shiny jet syndrome. I love flying. And in what kind of aircraft that would be I really dont care.

I have a strong character , and I will not snap when I would have had the money.

So dont accuse me on that if you dont know me BAE.

[Will Swinburn]

Hi P40.

To give you some background. I fly for an airline and have a business in the flight training industry. I started the business because I'm very passionate about strengthening the bridge between flight training and commercial aviation. If you have a deep passion for something, it's very easy to channel the resultant energy in the wrong direction. In my opinion, that's what you've done.

I agree with you, on a very basic level. P2F isn't good. But you tend to come across as a bit of an extremist or live wire. If you really are as passionate as you claim to be, convert that energy to something positive. Think about how anybody could realistically stop this practice? You speak of illegalities in Australia, well investigate that, properly, be analytical and try to utilise what you learn.

Consider who is motivated to stop such practices and why? Seek their assistance. You mentioned airlines who pro-actively discriminate against students who have gone through the P2F route. Whilst I question the reality of this, I urge you to contact those recruiters and see if they have any motivation to help you in your quest.

Channeling your energy on here probably isn't that smart. Are you trying to capture those going into training? Look at the advertising section of pprune, is this the demographic you're hoping to appeal to?

I have to get back to helping graduates get jobs now. I applaud your cause and wish you success but if you continue ranting, you risk coming across as bitter, not someone who is actually trying to make serious headway on a worthwhile cause.

[sunside]

One piece of advice, after reading your petition: You should get the facts straight, and point out why the general public need such a law. When it sounds like a frustrated aspiring pilot is venting his anger, that does no good to convince the public or politicians.

Especially this part is just not true, if you look at it from a global perspective:

In the meantime, thousands of qualified and unemployed European professional pilots are unable to find a job partly because, out of corporate greed, those airlines choose to use pilots who pay to work.

The fact is, the total number of pilot jobs is not altered by the existence of P2F. If at all, it will increase the number of jobs because flying becomes cheaper, so more passengers will choose the plane over other means of transport, thus creating more demand for pilots.

Another fact is, you cannot blame the passengers for choosing the lowest airfare, because even if an airline was charging higher prices, that would just increase their profit, they would not give the money to their pilots if they don't have to.

The only way this can be stopped is by labour laws, which are unfortunately not harmonized in the EU, but a matter of each national state. Thus enabling the airlines to do "forum shopping" for the lowest possible standards. The other way is by way of labour relations, i.e. existing pilots of an airline solidarising with their weakest colleagues, and taking action to create collective labour agreements which prohibit P2F.

[J74]