Let's stand up AGAINST P2F. Sign the petition.
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Let's stand up AGAINST P2F. Sign the petition.
Dear fellow pilots,
I have been posting quiet some comments here and there. And I was hard on some people here who justify P2F. I could say I am sorry, but to be honest , I am not sorry.
We should all say NO against P2F. Don't think that it all has no influence, because if I say no, someone else would say YES anyway.
Every person who says NO against P2F ''Job Offers'' count. Slowly more and more airlines disqualify people who participated in P2F. That is good.
So lets sign the petition against P2F. See the link below and also watch the other links.
https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition...?dIHwWib&pv=65
https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-t...yt-cl=84503534
PAY to FLY documentary from Switzerland.
and not to forget the Facebook pagina STOP PAY TO FLY:
https://www.facebook.com/stop.paytofly?fref=ts
Think about your future. How much is your well being worth and that of your fellow pilots with and without jobs and not to forget general safety in the sky and on the ground.
I have been posting quiet some comments here and there. And I was hard on some people here who justify P2F. I could say I am sorry, but to be honest , I am not sorry.
We should all say NO against P2F. Don't think that it all has no influence, because if I say no, someone else would say YES anyway.
Every person who says NO against P2F ''Job Offers'' count. Slowly more and more airlines disqualify people who participated in P2F. That is good.
So lets sign the petition against P2F. See the link below and also watch the other links.
https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition...?dIHwWib&pv=65
https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-t...yt-cl=84503534
PAY to FLY documentary from Switzerland.
and not to forget the Facebook pagina STOP PAY TO FLY:
https://www.facebook.com/stop.paytofly?fref=ts
Think about your future. How much is your well being worth and that of your fellow pilots with and without jobs and not to forget general safety in the sky and on the ground.
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I think the guys in Emirates are doing okay who did the p2f in Lion Air, some of them are flying 777s now. 
Enjoy taking the noble route into aviation, im sure there might be at least one guy out there who thinks your helping everybody's terms and conditions by being a cabin crew when your a qualified pilot.
Enjoy taking the noble route into aviation, im sure there might be at least one guy out there who thinks your helping everybody's terms and conditions by being a cabin crew when your a qualified pilot.
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p40 warhawk i admire your ambition and fully agree pay2fly is a disgrace. However I think your efforts are in vain, the "must be a pilot at all costs" mentality as someone else said on here in a different thread has ruined and is still ruining this once highly noble profession.
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Good luck then with you Pay Cut BAE in future or losing your job because some idiot who is willing to pay to sit in your seat.
Id rather be now Cabin Crew then that I pay to sit in RHS.
I respect my fellow pilots career and that of mine. But it seems that you dont care about your future.
Yes many guys went from Lion to EK and other ME airlines. But now more and more airlines start to disqualify people who had gone that way.
All in all it is dangerous. People working for nothing. Financial stress. Because no salary, they have to fund also their living expenses. But since they dont want to waste to much money on living, the quality of food is also not great, which will also worsen their physical condition / concentration, which has effect on flight safety.
Talking about the Lion Air boys and girls. The old contracts were not that bad actually. Atleast proper salaries. But still yes P2F. Which makes me and many other people sick.
Even slaves had it better in the old days. They had at least not to pay to work for their master.
I also know people who gone the P2F route and now fly for good Airlines in Europe. 777, A320's, 737's, A330. But it is the principle and the thought behind all this what is disgraceful.
Again. I am happy with being an FA instead of sitting jobless at home or pay to work. And I am not to arrogant to do this job. In meanwhile I am hoping for my chance to become FO in this airline I work for. Now few FA's and Ramp Agents are in training and soon to be launched on the line. And that WITHOUT paying for their TR. And having a good Salary.
Id rather be now Cabin Crew then that I pay to sit in RHS.
I respect my fellow pilots career and that of mine. But it seems that you dont care about your future.
Yes many guys went from Lion to EK and other ME airlines. But now more and more airlines start to disqualify people who had gone that way.
All in all it is dangerous. People working for nothing. Financial stress. Because no salary, they have to fund also their living expenses. But since they dont want to waste to much money on living, the quality of food is also not great, which will also worsen their physical condition / concentration, which has effect on flight safety.
Talking about the Lion Air boys and girls. The old contracts were not that bad actually. Atleast proper salaries. But still yes P2F. Which makes me and many other people sick.
Even slaves had it better in the old days. They had at least not to pay to work for their master.
I also know people who gone the P2F route and now fly for good Airlines in Europe. 777, A320's, 737's, A330. But it is the principle and the thought behind all this what is disgraceful.
Again. I am happy with being an FA instead of sitting jobless at home or pay to work. And I am not to arrogant to do this job. In meanwhile I am hoping for my chance to become FO in this airline I work for. Now few FA's and Ramp Agents are in training and soon to be launched on the line. And that WITHOUT paying for their TR. And having a good Salary.
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And that Officer Kite,
And that is why every signature counts. So sign the petition. Doing nothing will for sure not change anything.
I said NO to 2 ''job offers'' where I had to pay. Someone else said yes to it. I know that. I could have had by now approx 400 hours B717 or 500 hrs B737CL if I said yes to those ''offers''.
But I dont care. I am not selfish. But I always think about the long run. Not just short run.
And that is why every signature counts. So sign the petition. Doing nothing will for sure not change anything.
I said NO to 2 ''job offers'' where I had to pay. Someone else said yes to it. I know that. I could have had by now approx 400 hours B717 or 500 hrs B737CL if I said yes to those ''offers''.
But I dont care. I am not selfish. But I always think about the long run. Not just short run.
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Just as a side note to anyone reading this and thinking of doing a p2f scheme, obviously in the hope that after 500 hours or whatever else you can apply to the big boys on a better contract. I would be very careful with that, this p2f nonsense has been going on a while and has not been very popular among the pilot community worldwide, these pilots who have despised it for so long now may be getting to the stage at which they're being offered management positions in their respective airlines. The managers who accepted p2f the past couple of years may very well not be in their positions in the future (people change positions all the time), with that position being taken by someone who had to struggle to get their foot on the aviation ladder because of p2f.
My point is that p2f is not popular among pilots, and those pilots when given management positions WILL think twice about employing you so I would be careful !
My point is that p2f is not popular among pilots, and those pilots when given management positions WILL think twice about employing you so I would be careful !
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Pay for TR with job after TR aint pay 2 fly. It is still not perfect, but Paying for LT is that freakin illness where I am against.
Ryan Air you pay for TR, but then you will fly without paying for your experience. Same with Wizz.
And what you say Kite. I speak with many pilots. And all of them hate people who did LT crap.
Ryan Air you pay for TR, but then you will fly without paying for your experience. Same with Wizz.
And what you say Kite. I speak with many pilots. And all of them hate people who did LT crap.
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P2F is against un-employed pilots.
Aviation is our passion, love, future and all P2F schemes would not prevent us from doing what is right to stop this unfair and dangerous game.
It is slowly slowly trying to kill potential, professional and valuable pilots who are trying to get their first job with an airline.
Our words will pass from pilot to pilot, mouth to mouth until this unfair P2F system dies forever and ever.
Now is the right time to act !!!
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The fact that I bring this under attention helps already a bit. And every bit counts.
But I have lot of respect for your choice. Must have been not easy for you.
But I have lot of respect for your choice. Must have been not easy for you.
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Paying twice the market value of a TR, not receiving a paycheck during training, being asked to pay all housing/moving/paperwork expenses out of your own pocket, being forced into a permanent contractor position, etc .. Ryanair is as close to P2F as one can get without actually crossing the line. But hey, shiny jet syndrome beats common sense every time.
Oh, did you read that they increased the flat fee for the TR by another 1000€? Must be the ever rising fuel and training cost ... oh wait ....
I have signed the petition, with the vain hope that it perhaps might change something. Regardless of its futility, I feel we should always continue the debate and hear from both sides. Anyone reading these comments should feel like they learnt something and perhaps make a better, more informed choice in the long run. I believe that should be the main goal, as we can't rely on anyone but the current and next generation of entry level pilots to change our attitude towards employment & slavery.
Moral of any aviation story - Lads & lasses, go to uni first, get an education, and don't put all eggs in the aviation basket; You can beat mr O'leary off at any point in your life should you feel so inclined.
Oh, did you read that they increased the flat fee for the TR by another 1000€? Must be the ever rising fuel and training cost ... oh wait ....
I have signed the petition, with the vain hope that it perhaps might change something. Regardless of its futility, I feel we should always continue the debate and hear from both sides. Anyone reading these comments should feel like they learnt something and perhaps make a better, more informed choice in the long run. I believe that should be the main goal, as we can't rely on anyone but the current and next generation of entry level pilots to change our attitude towards employment & slavery.
Moral of any aviation story - Lads & lasses, go to uni first, get an education, and don't put all eggs in the aviation basket; You can beat mr O'leary off at any point in your life should you feel so inclined.
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Say NO to P2F
I've signed the petition too!Flydubai's scheme in association with CAE is also type of P2F....never expected an ME airline to do that.I 'd rather fly a Cessna in africa for peanuts and progress accordingly than P2F!
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Say NO to P2F!
In the past two years since I got my CPL/IR I've been seeing so many pilots paying to fly just only in my country. I have to say that I will never board a plane as a passenger if I knew the pilot is paying to fly (I was colleague with some of them). The major risk the managers of this companies undertake is that if the passengers find out who is flying their plane, they will definetely avoid that air carrier and in this manner they lose PAX (and they don't want that). SO, that's why I spread the word about this practice and why is dangerous for their safety.
We, pilots, cannot change the mentality of our fellow colleagues for not paying to fly
. They are to greedy 
, to close-minded to even consider the others. It's an education aspect.
Only a legislative document to enforce the interdiction of this practice can help us. So that's why I signed the petition! Did you? In Australia is forbidden! Why can't be the same in Europe also?
We, pilots, cannot change the mentality of our fellow colleagues for not paying to fly
. They are to greedy , to close-minded to even consider the others. It's an education aspect.Only a legislative document to enforce the interdiction of this practice can help us. So that's why I signed the petition! Did you? In Australia is forbidden! Why can't be the same in Europe also?
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Madness
I have spoken to some P2F 'pilots' and they justify their actions thus: we already pay for our training, so P2F is an extension of this.
This is wrong.
Paying for your own training is just about acceptable, and remember, there are many professions where you get your training paid for you.
Once trained - circa 18 months and £80k later (£130k integrated) - should YOU really pay a company to fly.
This is so degrading to our profession, but as the writer above has already said, without legislation, we'll have to rely on training captains and recruiters in reputable airlines to BLACKLIST pilots who have used P2F.
This is wrong.
Paying for your own training is just about acceptable, and remember, there are many professions where you get your training paid for you.
Once trained - circa 18 months and £80k later (£130k integrated) - should YOU really pay a company to fly.
This is so degrading to our profession, but as the writer above has already said, without legislation, we'll have to rely on training captains and recruiters in reputable airlines to BLACKLIST pilots who have used P2F.
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Guys, When HR recruit pilots they only look at how many hours you have and put you up for selection.
When you are getting interviewed they have no idea what your previous TC's were. All one has to do is say they were lucky enough to be on a paid contract if asked.
The only way this will stop, is if pilot unions, state authorities and the tax man gets involved. I suggest a letter to the tax man will shake it up a lot quicker.
When you are getting interviewed they have no idea what your previous TC's were. All one has to do is say they were lucky enough to be on a paid contract if asked.
The only way this will stop, is if pilot unions, state authorities and the tax man gets involved. I suggest a letter to the tax man will shake it up a lot quicker.
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I am a P2Fer from 2011 back when it cost a fraction of the price of today. I'm not overly proud of it but only bit the cherry after the trend had already been set by hundreds of others. In fact, at my previous airline there were 10 guys P2Fing having paid 3 x what I did 3 years ago. What does this tell you? It's getting worse, not better!
I've had 4 positions as a pilot since 2011 and more recently 3 job offers (based at my airport of choice) more or less in the same month. During the interviews I was asked how I got my experience on type. The interviewers were as old school as they come and didn't raise a single eyebrow. The trend has been set, they know the reality of the situation and they expect nothing else from new pilots. As one chief pilot put it, "well it's either that or pay horrendous amounts of money to be a cadet, right?" of course he's right!
I used to despise P2F but given the monopoly that exists regarding recruitment of new pilots (CTC / Oxford and other big schools), P2F becomes the only mechanism to get ahead for most of us. We're not all cut out to be trolly dollies for several years either (pride, cost of living <> salary or whatever the reason might be)
I've had 4 positions as a pilot since 2011 and more recently 3 job offers (based at my airport of choice) more or less in the same month. During the interviews I was asked how I got my experience on type. The interviewers were as old school as they come and didn't raise a single eyebrow. The trend has been set, they know the reality of the situation and they expect nothing else from new pilots. As one chief pilot put it, "well it's either that or pay horrendous amounts of money to be a cadet, right?" of course he's right!
I used to despise P2F but given the monopoly that exists regarding recruitment of new pilots (CTC / Oxford and other big schools), P2F becomes the only mechanism to get ahead for most of us. We're not all cut out to be trolly dollies for several years either (pride, cost of living <> salary or whatever the reason might be)
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The truth is that who has money does that and afterwards gets good jobs too.
Im an experienced military pilot and companies prefer young guys with p2f experience and all the proper paperwork done instead of good experience.
Its all about you were born: rich or nothing
Im an experienced military pilot and companies prefer young guys with p2f experience and all the proper paperwork done instead of good experience.
Its all about you were born: rich or nothing
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Ow is this how you think about Flight Attendants? Superpilot : We're not all cut out to be trolly dollies for several years eitherr. Very respectful to your colleagues in the Cabin. Nice mentality. Would not like to work with people who think like that about their crew. We are all a team. Everyone is as important as the other one. Its Called CRM.
Yes some recruiters dont give a damn about how you obtained your experience, but I heard also more and more recruiters from respectable airlines who seriously not even consider boys and girls who have done P2F. And that comes finally MORE and MORE.
You can sit back and do nothing against it and just accept everything as it is, or you try to do something against it. And that is what I am telling. We have to stand up AGAINST these practices.
You are in your 4th company you mentioned. How do you like it when you got a job with your experience already under your belt, and then you company decides to change course and says,, hey what the hell? Why should I pay that Ace Superpilot to sit in that RHS if I could get there also someone in that RHS which I dont have to pay. Saves on Salary and training costs. So you get kicked out. Again you have to search for a new job. And maybe have to work in some country somewhere in the world, where the conditions to live and work are horrible.
Slaves at least did not have to pay their Master to work for them. These practices are even WORSE then Slavery.
Besides your respectable nickname you give to us Flight Attendants '' Trolly Dollies'' there are other jobs which might get you closer to RHS position.
Dispatcher, Ramp Agent. Just a few examples.
And also many programs in less civilized countries where CRM is not as good as in Western world, you as P2F guy are not even allowed to fly the plane. Just paper pusher or RT, with MAYBE a bit of luck the capt. let you be flap and gear operator.
And that after paying 45-90K eu. You still dont know how to fly that Shiny Jet.
So what PEC says is true. If we accept such programs, NOT the best pilots sit in RHS but the ones with the biggest wallet.
Because obtaining your F ATPL is not super hard. Just asks some studying. Also learning to fly is not super hard. As long as you are not retarted and have a bit of hand eye coordination you can obtain your licenses.
Myself I worked my ass off to pass all exams first attempt. And not only by clicking through the QB, but also studied the books. Passed skill test first attempt. And all of that did not get me a job.
I know of a guy who was not taking theory very serious. Failed quit some exams. Had to retake them. But his dad has money and paid another 45K for his son on P2F program. I am not saying he is a bad pilot. I know he flies good, but you can see, with money you can advance. Without money. What I dont have, NOT, because someone is willing to pay instead. I will NOT CAPITULATE . I was barely able to finish my training because financial situation which was not that good. It came all from the last money of my parents and my sister. I worked hard as mentioned. Disciplined but I get no job because I dont have money. I dont say I am THE ACE, but I have huge passion for flying, and extremely ambitious, and willing to work hard and loyal to be a good employee, as long as the airline offers proper T&C's. But I just cannot advance in carreer. Though I am very happy to be Trolly Dolly. Here comes forward that Safety is not taken seriously by airlines, by taking on just people with money instead of knowledge and skills.
I am happy that more an more people start to understand what I mean. Instead of being Ignorant .
Yes some recruiters dont give a damn about how you obtained your experience, but I heard also more and more recruiters from respectable airlines who seriously not even consider boys and girls who have done P2F. And that comes finally MORE and MORE.
You can sit back and do nothing against it and just accept everything as it is, or you try to do something against it. And that is what I am telling. We have to stand up AGAINST these practices.
You are in your 4th company you mentioned. How do you like it when you got a job with your experience already under your belt, and then you company decides to change course and says,, hey what the hell? Why should I pay that Ace Superpilot to sit in that RHS if I could get there also someone in that RHS which I dont have to pay. Saves on Salary and training costs. So you get kicked out. Again you have to search for a new job. And maybe have to work in some
country somewhere in the world, where the conditions to live and work are horrible.Slaves at least did not have to pay their Master to work for them. These practices are even WORSE then Slavery.
Besides your respectable nickname you give to us Flight Attendants '' Trolly Dollies'' there are other jobs which might get you closer to RHS position.
Dispatcher, Ramp Agent. Just a few examples.
And also many programs in less civilized countries where CRM is not as good as in Western world, you as P2F guy are not even allowed to fly the plane. Just paper pusher or RT, with MAYBE a bit of luck the capt. let you be flap and gear operator.
And that after paying 45-90K eu. You still dont know how to fly that Shiny Jet.
So what PEC says is true. If we accept such programs, NOT the best pilots sit in RHS but the ones with the biggest wallet.
Because obtaining your F ATPL is not super hard. Just asks some studying. Also learning to fly is not super hard. As long as you are not retarted and have a bit of hand eye coordination you can obtain your licenses.
Myself I worked my ass off to pass all exams first attempt. And not only by clicking through the QB, but also studied the books. Passed skill test first attempt. And all of that did not get me a job.
I know of a guy who was not taking theory very serious. Failed quit some exams. Had to retake them. But his dad has money and paid another 45K for his son on P2F program. I am not saying he is a bad pilot. I know he flies good, but you can see, with money you can advance. Without money. What I dont have, NOT, because someone is willing to pay instead. I will NOT CAPITULATE . I was barely able to finish my training because financial situation which was not that good. It came all from the last money of my parents and my sister. I worked hard as mentioned. Disciplined but I get no job because I dont have money. I dont say I am THE ACE, but I have huge passion for flying, and extremely ambitious, and willing to work hard and loyal to be a good employee, as long as the airline offers proper T&C's. But I just cannot advance in carreer. Though I am very happy to be Trolly Dolly. Here comes forward that Safety is not taken seriously by airlines, by taking on just people with money instead of knowledge and skills.
I am happy that more an more people start to understand what I mean. Instead of being Ignorant .