2011 recruitment

[Wrightflyer1]

Thanks for the posts on this guys... there are a lot of mixed reviews... I guess I'll just have to get stuck in, finish my frozen atpl, hope for the best like everyone else and consider paying for TR.

767200ER - I've heard mixed reports on paying for your own TR... you'd obviously recommend it then? Were you accepted for a job for Ryanair before you started it? And where did you complete it?

[Pilot Positive]

hope for the best like everyone else and consider paying for TR.

You're obviously committed to the aviation industry then.
There's a saying: A fool and his money is easily parted.
This kind of attitude really annoys the hell out of me and my colleagues.

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...petitions.html


A lot of cadets coming out of CTC, OAA, Cabair etc... believe that their FTO owe them a job because they are integrated students. THEY DONT. You have paid just for training - nothing more and nothing less.

Do not be easily led to think that its simply a matter of money to get a job in aviation either or that the industry owes you a job just because you have money to spend. IT DOESN'T.

Did you ever think about earning the right, in terms of experience, to get to your glorious goal (perceived) of looking good on an 80T mid range jet? Or did you want to just pay to fly because you think its easy to do so and it'll impress your mates down the pub? Its not a bl&*dey fair ground...Shocking as it might seem you might just have to earn your right to a multi-crew role.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

If you're a Brookfield contract FO what is to stop Ryanair from putting your hours, and therefore your earnings, down to 200hrs a year in a couple of years time when you're on the expensive hourly rate and replacing you with another FO on the low intro rate whose just handed over a bug type rating cheque?

Oh, Nothing.


The Ryanair renumeration isn't bad. Its nothing special when you deduct all the deductions, count the missing benefits and pay your taxes. Talk of making £50k as a new FO are barking.

And remember. You have no permanent contract, very little notice, no minimum hours/wages and no fixed base.

You're O Leary's bitch. Watching some of you dance a jig at the fact veers between curious and sickening. It is a job though, which if you're £70k+ in and watching your ratings expire is the best option in the rock/hard place calculations..


WWW

[alphaadrian]

Pilot positive

I agree with your comments 100% but let me tell you something...guys who are even considering p2f or buying their own type rating aint gonna listen to you. You can argue with them till ur blue in the face. Its like the "green" issue...some are concerned with protecting the planet for future generations..others couldnt really care less...they are gonna be dead so y should it concern them.The P2F issue annoys me lke hell but while ppl are prepared to do it..then it will exist.
Im sick of trying to convert people and have given up trying.

Each time you read about someone doing it do what I do...picture them £30000 in debt with no job offer..it helps!!

Alpha

[theWings]

Each time you read about someone doing it do what I do...picture them £30000 in debt with no job offer..it helps!!

alphaadrian, a bit unkind, no?

I think they'll feel sick enough every time they get chatting with someone who got the same job, has no £30k debt and got the job on merit.

theWings

[alphaadrian]

The Wings

"A bit unkind..no?"

Not in my opinion im afraid. Sorry!



Alpha

[VNA Lotus]

Do not be easily led to think that its simply a matter of money to get a job in aviation either or that the industry owes you a job just because you have money to spend. IT DOESN'T.

sorry but I don't agree...

first of all english's my second language. I got the CPL/IR/MCC/FI, 800 hours. (piston only). Finished my training 3 years ago and not a job... except flying in a flying club as FI (sometimes) cause it's a volunteer job here.

And honestly I did not know that it would be so difficult. Ok I knew it of course but not in this way.
Well, simply because, when I look all around me, all my friends that I knew during my training, most of them, I should say 90% of them, got a job as a FO 200hours, only because they paid a type rating!!
And I can tell you, some of them they are not necessary good pilot, or have good skills. Just because their parent have a high income they became pilot just to wear raybans and tie.
So please, pretty please, don't tell it is not a matter of money. It is only about that...

really I did not want to pay for any TR unless I have a job at the end (contract). But I am thinking about to pay a TR this year. It is not complicated they three type of aircraft anyway in this world: 320/737/ATR.

You know Facebook of course ?? ok so when you see all your friends getting a job one after one, just after a type rating and 200 hours. Your mind starts changing.

In the same time you hate them to kill this industry, you are jealous not having a lot of money like them. In the same time you think : ok if I don't do it, another person wil do and will take the right seat so....

sorry to be negative, but when you see people that you know getting the job and not you just because of lack of money, you really are not happy... I'm disappointed, because it is not my thoughts to pay for working but it seems to be the only way today.

Really I prefer the USA system, at least everybody starts in the same way. Beech/Focker/Airbus boeing... (impossible to have 200h and start in a 320 or else)

In europe this system is crap!! you can have 200h and being in a shiny jet (money money money). and you can have 1000 or 2000 hours (piston and hard working) and being unemployed!! tsss one word: unfair!

Don't attack me... I know I am right. Ok you will tell me some people find a job well paid with a type rating paid by the company. But it is just an insignificant number...

[Pilot Positive]

sorry to be negative, but when you see people that you know getting the job and not you just because of lack of money, you really are not happy.

This is the other side of P2F. Its tough on those who cant afford it and have merit to see those with money and no merit get jobs. It creates a culture of resentment.

VNA lotus, I do feel for you and I would say that you will probably be a better pilot and more experienced than some of your friends will be. I cant advocate P2F because the inherent industry change its likely to cause long term is one I dont relish. You're 24 so you are relatively young in this industry...which means you have plenty of time to see a variety of flying and to have some fun. That can only be a good thing.

And when you get to the flight deck of a shiney 80T mid tange jet (if thats what you want to do) you will have a respectable background of experience, earned your position and have some great stories to share. The kind of people I like to fly with.


PS alphaadrian. Yeah perhaps you're right mate. I have never had to pay for my training so I guess I'm a lucky one....however if I can just get through to 1 wannabee out of the 1000's out there then thats 1 wannabee less who is adding to the P2F culture. Still hurts me head tho

[VNA Lotus]

PIlot positive.
thanks very much for your reply!
you I was quite depressed but now I am better. Up and down, that is normal....
I need to have positive thoughts and attitude. Quite tough nowadays but I need it.

you know I am so stressed sometimes, I try to find so many ways :

how much money for that ? a backgroup carreer, as a flight dispatcher ? how much ? where ? when ? or maybe as a cabin crew ? but how to justify with my Cv (pilot) ? or maybe I go back to the university ? a degree ? but for what ? which subject ?
or maybe a type rating ? which one ? jet or turboprop ? and if it does not work ? No I can't....
which country ? maybe I take my bags and go another country ? Canada ? But I need to do the CAA course.... or USA ? no I can't, I do not have the Green card for working....

well so many questions.... that sometimes I get depressed and have headaches...really. Very tired and tensed too.

sometime I want to change right away a job and forget about aviation. But the passion comes back....

negative thoughts. We need to avoid it.

tomorrow's sunday, I'll see my family. I'll forget about aviation for at least one day to breath. Keep going guys. It is not easy but life is a long struggle. And as Pilot Positive said, we will have a lot of stories to share, with a smile of course...

[flyhelico]

Vna,

you know, it takes only 2 months to complete a type rating.
you don't really need to have a type rating to get a job.

It would be better to wait, and if you know someone who need a pilot like you with a type rating, go for it.

I have myself a rating on the 320. Did it in 2007, I got no job offer.No interview at all, nothing!I think 2007 was the beginning of the crisis, it was in the air, nobody saw it.

If I did it in 2005, yes, I would have got a job already, but I would have certainly lost my job in 2009, and now with experience, airline don't want you anymore! good for me and the industry, I have no experience , I am cheap, and I will be the next one to be hired (then fired... yes they will fire me once I pass the mark of 1000h on the bus)!

My rating is now expired, and I will renew it only if I have a chance to be hired.

Now it doesn't worth, cost too much.

If you want get an idea when to start a training, look at the major airlines.
look at the USA, ad look at BA and other national carriers. If they hire, it' s good sign.

Look around you, don't focus on Airbus or Boeing only.

[Pilot Positive]

I need to have positive thoughts and attitude.

Bang on the glide slope!

You're in a good position now: 800 hours, you're an FI, speak 2+ languages and by the sounds of it you have the right attitude. Thats a lot more than some guys aged 24 entering the industry have. Its easy to look at someone better off than yourself and ask "Why isnt that me?" Its trickier to spot what you have in terms of positives and realise that theres a lot more people worse off than yourself! Think of those guys coming out of integrated courses now with 200 hours!

Fast tracking through P2F is not all its cracked up to be and there are other ways to achieve what you want to achieve...

If you have no committments go and explore, try different things in different countries in aviation. You'll build experience, meet new people, make new friends and have some amazing fun enroute - in a few years time when things start to pick up you'll have some useful life experience to share over and above others your age.

Wish I was 24 again.

[Finals19]

VNA....

We have a saying in English - "keep the faith" and its really what you (we) all need to do right now, without succombing to the gamble that is P2F. As Pilot Positive said, at 24 and with 800hrs, you're not in a bad place at all.

We all get the days just as you describe - flying "the desk job", agonising over how on earth we get ourselves out of this awful mess and yes its stressful, depressing and can have a negative effect on both you and your family. Its soul destroying to have spent thousands on training and then just be waiting around, trying to keep current and sending out cv's / researching companies, but without even a response or a "no thanks".

I am 38, have 1250+ hours (with 800 in Air Taxi on Navajo's) am fluent in English and French - despite lots of people being supportive, I cannot find flying work right now either (and I am about to get married!) Its very very stressful, yet I cannot see the logic in rolling the dice with a P2F choice. I have tried to view it as a financial exercise, an investment which will pay itself off in a few years. However, as others on here have pointed out, there are NO guarantees - therefore you cannot project how quickly you will progress and pay that added debt off. You can only "guestimate" and if you have any commitments at all elsewhere in your life "guestimating" is not an option.

Hang in there - things will change and those who have current ratings and some experience will start getting hired again (maybe not onto a jet, but a nice TP which will give you some great further experience)

[fastidious bob]

"WWW, another one who should have listened to your well intended warnings!"

[fastidious bob]

WWW

What a vile little man you are

[pablo]

Hi fellas,

first of all, I don't mean to sound bitchy but this industry is a cruel mistress for pilots. And it's difficult to have a good overview/understanding of the pilot market until it's too late.

Now... about pay to fly... some guys had success, many others didn't. It's mostly a gamble.
Then even if you get the job and are unfortunate to be in a dodgy workplace, you'll be always pressed because basically you can't say no (you are very easy to replace, and you didn't cost a euro to the company). Even if something happens like the company downsizing, you loose your medical, etc... you are basically in a difficult position.
If the company pays for the training, they'll always be more supportive after the investment they made.
Not to mention the stress you give to yourself for the finnacial risk (unless you come from a rich family).

But... each one can do what he wants with his/her money.

IMHO I think the fairest solution for both parts is a reasonable training bond covering part of the investment the company is making.

Now... having covered that part... about those of you guys being somehow stressed about your situation, I used to be like that.
I had the burden also of comparing myself to others, being negative, etc...
If you accept a humble advice... never let that kind of thing to happen to you, and never beat yourself up.

You must be in peace with yourself and proud, since you are actually doing whatever is within your hands to find a job and move forward on your career.
Yes, indeed we could always do more, and maybe if... maybe if... but I do what I can do and that's all.

I have many colleagues some gained employment with XYZ airline, some paid for ratings, some travelled here and there, etc... they tell you you must do this or that. The part they usually forget to tell is that they have a family backing up finnacially, this or that contact, etc...

VNA Lotus, keep your faith as others said.
You'll see how tasteful it is to find a good job on your own merit and without paying. Might take a bit longer, but you'll be happier for sure.

Finally, I'm not a Human Resources or Economy guru, but... I think the events on the following weeks month might change a lot the prospects for 2011. Greece is bankrupt, and Spain and Portugal are in danger, thus endangering EU economy. We have to wait and see.
I think it's an excellent time to get a university degree and have it as a backup, or go that way and just fly for fun, without all the stresses of job hunting!

Cheers and good luck!

[xuejiesandi]

Hey Guys, all this adds up to very interesting reading...you all are quite right about not having any guarantee. As far as P2F goes, about an year back I used to be very jealous of those who could afford to pay for a rating, as I slogged 6 years to have enough money for my Commercial License. Got an instructor license & while instructing built network. Eventually, I found someone who funded me a turbine rating. But, it doesn't finish here...
Now, I'm waiting from last 3-4 months to get flying as the company I am associated with has no operation at the moment.

I think what if I paid for all this, I would have been in a very bad situation. At the moment at least I can reassure myself, but in case of self-sponsored type rating...man that would have been a disaster. And, to all those P2F wanna be's, if company pays; they have an obligation to get the return out of you, if you pay you're just a responsibility; which can be whisked away as & when required, citing insurance or economical reasons.....
I say do it, if someone is promising you a contract & you've money to forget, but if you pledging your house, man!!!! I will pray for you!!!!

[minimad]

I'm a soldier in the British army and am currently training for my
Ppl. By the nature of my job, having a possitive attitude is key to any
Problem or obstacle you may come across. It sounds like theres no chance of getting
Any job for new pilots. And it dosnt help when people have such negative attitudes.
I'm not saying don't be realistic but you need to have a can do attitude. If you can't
Go over the brick wall go through it, if you can't go through it go under it! If your not
Part of the solution your part of the problem. I dont wanna get to 70 and think "what if I gave it a go?" Chin up, crack on and don't give up! There are jobs out there but its how you go about finding them.

[A320rider]

well said minithing,

I see you are 20 and kow nothing about aviation.

easier to climb a wall than geting into aviaton

[Pilot Positive]

A320, be careful not to belittle minimad's comments. Attitude and behaviour counts for a lot in aviation and he's outlining the sort of mindset you need to have to achieve a goal generally.

Problem solving and a positive attitude can go a long way - there may not be an abundance of the desired mid range jets for wannabees but there are other flying opportunties if you look hard enough.

Becoming fixated with a "I'm going to climb this wall" may not be as productive as "I'm going to get round this wall one way or another" kind of attitude.


PS Minimad: About that wall you refer to. Yes you can go over it, under it, through it, around it. Alternatively you could always build your own wall

[Garba51]

What would Pink Floyd say about that?


Garba, out