looking for A320 jobs
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adverse-bump,
The link you posted appears to be broken
The link you posted appears to be broken
Naturally, you will have to pay for your line training, we are also please to report, that as of Jan '10, all of first officers will pay flight pay. IE you pay us £450 per flying hour. We are very excited about the coming months, and hope that you will join us to fill out our bottom line.
DISCLAIMER: DURING YOUR LINE TRAINING WE WILL ATTEMPT TO COVER ALL BASIC FLYING SKILLS, BUT AS YOU ARE PROBABLY NOT A VERY GOOD PILOT (which is why you paid for a TR) WE PROMISE NOTHING
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Agree
...and yes, soon everybody has to pay for TR and LT, like it or not! The companies will not hire pilots that will kill them financially, (low time, low pay) common sense? So, all you who did it the "right" way, get a life! Times are not as they used to be!
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If a company is likely to go bust unless you pay for your type rating and line training then I would suggest it would be foolish to pump money into them for fear that you will lose your cash and worse still come out of the mix part qualified. There is little demand for low houred type rated f/o's in anycase. But a low houred partly line trained f/o is no better than a basic CPL/IR holder.
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Look guys I'm fed up with hearing all this crap and useless insults. I'm a 14000hr Capt on Airbus and seen the ups and downs once or twice before in this industry so let me try and tell you the way it is - Supply & Demand -It's as simple as that! It always has been! This time is a little different though because of reckless lending (and borrowing) that in times before wasn't so easy and the leeches are out there to grab your money & take avantage of you, whether they are the training schools, agencies or airlines.
When I started flying training (the self improver route, paying as and when I could afford it) they were all telling me the same story i.e. you'll never get a job. Things suddenly changed though (as they SURELY will again) and I got straight in a jet job with CPL/IR and only 700 hrs TT, meanwhile a friend of mine was put on the payroll whilst he finished his CPL revision sitting on the beach!! After about 3 mnths he was flying a jet. Simples - more seats than arses at the time. At the moment there are more arses than seats and you guys arn't being patient and the airlines are only too quick to make their move and dress it up to make it look advantageous to YOU.
You all think by throwing money at it you will be the "One" who gets the job and jump the queue. Yes, there will always be one on here saying it worked for him, but there are loads with same hours etc that wern't as lucky - get it? how luck do you feel?
Trouble is you're all paying through the nose and it is becoming the NORM, so no advantage to you. Back to square one then but £30000 lighter. So now the airlines are using the situation well to their advantage (and the agencies too.) This is why the insults are coming from fellow pilots because at the moment you are all ruining Terms and Conditions not only for us that are already established but also for yourselves in the future, and us old farts know that even in the good times it's bloody hard work trying to even up the balance again in "the good times" and get back what they've taken off us.
Yes, I would have got a job a couple of years earlier if I had thrown loadsamoney at it in order to jump the queue but I joined free of debt - sweet. Look, all of you, STOP and WAIT and don't let these airlines take advantage of you, they will never hire you when there are more suckers to pay for the coveted seat after your £30000 'training' has run out.
Shake hands with the new "F/O" as you get off the airplane on your last training,he has just added to your woes by depriving you of a decent paid job just like you did to someone else when you started your 'training'. Just WAIT and be PATIENT and start your career as debt free as possible for the sake of yourselves and the whole messy industry.
If the airlines shake the pilot tree and no more fall out they will be DESPERATE to hire ANYONE, as seats need arses and it's as simple as that. Stick two fingers up to the terms and conditions these leeches are offering you and just be PATIENT otherwise you will be paying a loan equivalent to most people's mortgage and for as long! What life-style is that? You will regret it soon enough once you're doing 4 sector days and permantly fatigued whilst buckling under the debt you put yourself in just to turn up for work.
Why should you be the one to stand aside? - well,when you walk into a job during the next upturn and your mate in the crew room bemoans the fact his extra debt he is paying off in order to have got him there a year earlier is screwing up his life now and for the next 20yrs then you might enjoy your 4 sector day a little better and the money you earn is yours to enjoy. Argue with the facts and the moral of the story if you like it's YOU who's paying and the airlines are luvvin it.
P.S. to "justcantwait" your handle says it all and your post as well. If you justcantwait, then pay-up (borrow) and be damned and take everyone else down with you - be assured the airlines will love you - for only 60 sectors!
When I started flying training (the self improver route, paying as and when I could afford it) they were all telling me the same story i.e. you'll never get a job. Things suddenly changed though (as they SURELY will again) and I got straight in a jet job with CPL/IR and only 700 hrs TT, meanwhile a friend of mine was put on the payroll whilst he finished his CPL revision sitting on the beach!! After about 3 mnths he was flying a jet. Simples - more seats than arses at the time. At the moment there are more arses than seats and you guys arn't being patient and the airlines are only too quick to make their move and dress it up to make it look advantageous to YOU.
You all think by throwing money at it you will be the "One" who gets the job and jump the queue. Yes, there will always be one on here saying it worked for him, but there are loads with same hours etc that wern't as lucky - get it? how luck do you feel?
Trouble is you're all paying through the nose and it is becoming the NORM, so no advantage to you. Back to square one then but £30000 lighter. So now the airlines are using the situation well to their advantage (and the agencies too.) This is why the insults are coming from fellow pilots because at the moment you are all ruining Terms and Conditions not only for us that are already established but also for yourselves in the future, and us old farts know that even in the good times it's bloody hard work trying to even up the balance again in "the good times" and get back what they've taken off us.
Yes, I would have got a job a couple of years earlier if I had thrown loadsamoney at it in order to jump the queue but I joined free of debt - sweet. Look, all of you, STOP and WAIT and don't let these airlines take advantage of you, they will never hire you when there are more suckers to pay for the coveted seat after your £30000 'training' has run out.
Shake hands with the new "F/O" as you get off the airplane on your last training,he has just added to your woes by depriving you of a decent paid job just like you did to someone else when you started your 'training'. Just WAIT and be PATIENT and start your career as debt free as possible for the sake of yourselves and the whole messy industry.
If the airlines shake the pilot tree and no more fall out they will be DESPERATE to hire ANYONE, as seats need arses and it's as simple as that. Stick two fingers up to the terms and conditions these leeches are offering you and just be PATIENT otherwise you will be paying a loan equivalent to most people's mortgage and for as long! What life-style is that? You will regret it soon enough once you're doing 4 sector days and permantly fatigued whilst buckling under the debt you put yourself in just to turn up for work.
Why should you be the one to stand aside? - well,when you walk into a job during the next upturn and your mate in the crew room bemoans the fact his extra debt he is paying off in order to have got him there a year earlier is screwing up his life now and for the next 20yrs then you might enjoy your 4 sector day a little better and the money you earn is yours to enjoy. Argue with the facts and the moral of the story if you like it's YOU who's paying and the airlines are luvvin it.
P.S. to "justcantwait" your handle says it all and your post as well. If you justcantwait, then pay-up (borrow) and be damned and take everyone else down with you - be assured the airlines will love you - for only 60 sectors!
Last edited by MrBenip; 4th Feb 2010 at 19:12.
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Hear hear.
When I started looking for work in the mid nineties I was also advised to bide my time and don't work for free - some of the best advice I ever had. It wasn't easy financially but in the long term it meant I was saddled with much less debt (was a self improver). Take the long term view, help us more established blokes fight to improve T's and C's without you giving the airlines the opportunity to ignore us because they have a huge pool of "willing to pay" recruits. With time we will be able to recover from the mess we're in at the moment - but we need the collaboration of the freshly qualified guys in order to do so.
As an aside, the experience you will gain and the laughs you will have working your way up through the instructing, para dropping, air taxi etc route will be worth it's weight in gold and will make you far more valuable a recruit to the decent outfits out there. Just my humble opinion.
When I started looking for work in the mid nineties I was also advised to bide my time and don't work for free - some of the best advice I ever had. It wasn't easy financially but in the long term it meant I was saddled with much less debt (was a self improver). Take the long term view, help us more established blokes fight to improve T's and C's without you giving the airlines the opportunity to ignore us because they have a huge pool of "willing to pay" recruits. With time we will be able to recover from the mess we're in at the moment - but we need the collaboration of the freshly qualified guys in order to do so.
As an aside, the experience you will gain and the laughs you will have working your way up through the instructing, para dropping, air taxi etc route will be worth it's weight in gold and will make you far more valuable a recruit to the decent outfits out there. Just my humble opinion.
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Absolutely. Don't get more in to debt by buying a TR without a job attached and certainly don't ever pay for line training. As others have said, line training is only around 80-90 sectors at most and even then you know very very little. It's normal line ops that give you the experience and obviously you're not going to get it.
Times are terrible now so save your money. IF you're lucky at the next upturn you MIGHT get a job but be very aware that the odds are stacked against you unless there is a major turnaround.
I had to wait 13 years to get the money and experience by part-time instructing. After qualifying I had to wait another 2 years to get a job and my God was I lucky because I only got in 7 months before Sep 11. If I hadn't then I really don't think I ever would have got one as I was 34 by then.
Since then my luck has held and I even joined Ryanair (which i'm very happy with) 3 years ago and THEY PAID for the TR even though I'd never been near a 737 before. Timing, supply/Demand, persistence and a great big dollop of luck. Pure and simple.
Times are terrible now so save your money. IF you're lucky at the next upturn you MIGHT get a job but be very aware that the odds are stacked against you unless there is a major turnaround.
I had to wait 13 years to get the money and experience by part-time instructing. After qualifying I had to wait another 2 years to get a job and my God was I lucky because I only got in 7 months before Sep 11. If I hadn't then I really don't think I ever would have got one as I was 34 by then.
Since then my luck has held and I even joined Ryanair (which i'm very happy with) 3 years ago and THEY PAID for the TR even though I'd never been near a 737 before. Timing, supply/Demand, persistence and a great big dollop of luck. Pure and simple.
This makes no difference.
The vast, sprawling Wannabe Zombie Army are handing over big fat cheques for overpriced type rating every day by the dozen.
Then working on whatever terms dictated.
Claiming the rock of bankruptcy as a defence.
Ignoring that they put themselves in that rock/hardplace in the first place REGARDLESS of when they signed up - the burden of risk was always on you and your banks shoulders..
There are presently more jobs for Wannabes than for experienced pilots. Thats new.
It is solely because the wannabe pilots are profit centres rather than operational costs.
They are professional cancer and one day will kill somebody.
WWW
The vast, sprawling Wannabe Zombie Army are handing over big fat cheques for overpriced type rating every day by the dozen.
Then working on whatever terms dictated.
Claiming the rock of bankruptcy as a defence.
Ignoring that they put themselves in that rock/hardplace in the first place REGARDLESS of when they signed up - the burden of risk was always on you and your banks shoulders..
There are presently more jobs for Wannabes than for experienced pilots. Thats new.
It is solely because the wannabe pilots are profit centres rather than operational costs.
They are professional cancer and one day will kill somebody.
WWW
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yeah, wanabes worth nothing...after graduation, they feel they have to by rating +line traning.because they suck!
their CPL license worth nothing, just good to pay another 30k and be out of job...
if momy and dady were not here, they wouldn't do their license...they are just lazy.
all these idiots in integrated are just dady & momy sucker who don't want work and want stay at home, saying " booouuuhhhh, nobody want me, I have to pay for 500h, boouuuuh, please dady, give me 30 grant so I can go fly, bouhhhh".
and momy and dady are even more idiots, they give their house to get a loan, knowing their little bastard of called "pilot" will eventually never get a job...
go to uni, get a proper job, and go work!
when there will be a crash in london, who this stupid government is going to blame???? wanabe, airline, CAA, bank, or dady and momy?
their CPL license worth nothing, just good to pay another 30k and be out of job...
if momy and dady were not here, they wouldn't do their license...they are just lazy.
all these idiots in integrated are just dady & momy sucker who don't want work and want stay at home, saying " booouuuhhhh, nobody want me, I have to pay for 500h, boouuuuh, please dady, give me 30 grant so I can go fly, bouhhhh".
and momy and dady are even more idiots, they give their house to get a loan, knowing their little bastard of called "pilot" will eventually never get a job...
go to uni, get a proper job, and go work!
when there will be a crash in london, who this stupid government is going to blame???? wanabe, airline, CAA, bank, or dady and momy?
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Benip, nice contribution.
Strong arguments and facts as they are.
I interrupted flight training at the right moment and I'm debt free, pursuing other careers in aviation.
I will refuse to ever pay for a type-rating, line-training or Pay to Fly. Not only because it is unethical, but also because it would be financial suicide. I have several friends who share this view, many others who don' t and committed financial suicide.
I recommend my fellows here do the same.
I will never fly for Ryanair. My purpose is not to land on just any jet.
I' ll wait for the right opportunity and if it never comes, so be it.
We should all stop behaving like prostitutes and focus on getting this bottleneck problem solved.
(prostitutes can claim more honour, they get paid for what they do)
The main priority for us all is to inform adequately people who are considering signing up for flight training .
There are thousands of pilots jobless in Europe.
If your flight school is telling you that you have chances of catching employment before 2015, understand that they are only trying to push you into committing financial suicide for their own financial well-being.
Your flight school' s boss will drive around in a Porsche while you will work at McDonald' s to repay your loans!
Before you realise it, your dream could become your worst nightmare.
Some of my friends who went the expensive, risky, reckless route are starting to panic when they look at the huge pile of debts they are sitting on.
Try proposing to your girlfriend when your account balance is 100 000 euro in the red. You can already guess her answer.
Only you can do something about it, do not get sucked into it just because others are doing it too!
Strong arguments and facts as they are.
I interrupted flight training at the right moment and I'm debt free, pursuing other careers in aviation.
I will refuse to ever pay for a type-rating, line-training or Pay to Fly. Not only because it is unethical, but also because it would be financial suicide. I have several friends who share this view, many others who don' t and committed financial suicide.
I recommend my fellows here do the same.
I will never fly for Ryanair. My purpose is not to land on just any jet.
I' ll wait for the right opportunity and if it never comes, so be it.
We should all stop behaving like prostitutes and focus on getting this bottleneck problem solved.
(prostitutes can claim more honour, they get paid for what they do)
The main priority for us all is to inform adequately people who are considering signing up for flight training .
There are thousands of pilots jobless in Europe.
If your flight school is telling you that you have chances of catching employment before 2015, understand that they are only trying to push you into committing financial suicide for their own financial well-being.
Your flight school' s boss will drive around in a Porsche while you will work at McDonald' s to repay your loans!
Before you realise it, your dream could become your worst nightmare.
Some of my friends who went the expensive, risky, reckless route are starting to panic when they look at the huge pile of debts they are sitting on.
Try proposing to your girlfriend when your account balance is 100 000 euro in the red. You can already guess her answer.
Only you can do something about it, do not get sucked into it just because others are doing it too!
Last edited by fly_antonov; 9th Feb 2010 at 00:36.
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Sad times indeed. I never fails to amaze me, the idea that in this 'modern world' we are mean't to be protecting individuals with human rights, yet here we have a clear breach of morals.
On the one side we have cadets, eager for training and desperate for experience (because if they don't get it quick, their rating/licence will expire) and the chances are they're riddled with debt.
On the other we have the training companies who are struggling to make the turnover they're used to and finding new ways to keep the meat grinder turning. Unfortunately, they seem to have found an endless supply and not only this, the airlines are loving it. Mr Training has his cut, Mr Airline gets his cut and the cadet pays for the lot. As WWW said, strange territory indeed. And very worrying.
When we get to a situation like this, with no moral responsibility from either training providers or airlines and a lack of common voice for those desperate for jobs, is a mediator not required? How can cadets be expected to understand how this industry operates when so much information and opinion is flung at them from day one of training and from so many different directions?
Where are the CAA? They don't seem to think there is a problem, despite the obvious safety implications. (some of these guys/gals are holding down two jobs, working in bars, cleaning, etc. Sharing beds, sleeping in cars, debt worries etc etc).
I find this whole situation stinks of corporate and government irresponsibility and something needs to be done. As has been mentioned time and time again (and in this thread already I think), does it take a genius to realise that this is going to cause an accident? Haven't we already been here anyway, with the Buffalo incident? Oh no, I forgot, that was on the other side of the world, so it doesn't apply here in the UK.
Who should take responsibility for this? My personal opinion is that a petition needs to be started, the unions need to get stuck in, a snowball needs to be rolled and it needs to be directed right into the doors of parliament and then out of there and into the doors of the press. I wonder what the public would think of airlines that took a 250hr pilot in place of an experienced pilot with over 1000hrs of on type experience, for financial gain?
TB.
On the one side we have cadets, eager for training and desperate for experience (because if they don't get it quick, their rating/licence will expire) and the chances are they're riddled with debt.
On the other we have the training companies who are struggling to make the turnover they're used to and finding new ways to keep the meat grinder turning. Unfortunately, they seem to have found an endless supply and not only this, the airlines are loving it. Mr Training has his cut, Mr Airline gets his cut and the cadet pays for the lot. As WWW said, strange territory indeed. And very worrying.
When we get to a situation like this, with no moral responsibility from either training providers or airlines and a lack of common voice for those desperate for jobs, is a mediator not required? How can cadets be expected to understand how this industry operates when so much information and opinion is flung at them from day one of training and from so many different directions?
Where are the CAA? They don't seem to think there is a problem, despite the obvious safety implications. (some of these guys/gals are holding down two jobs, working in bars, cleaning, etc. Sharing beds, sleeping in cars, debt worries etc etc).
I find this whole situation stinks of corporate and government irresponsibility and something needs to be done. As has been mentioned time and time again (and in this thread already I think), does it take a genius to realise that this is going to cause an accident? Haven't we already been here anyway, with the Buffalo incident? Oh no, I forgot, that was on the other side of the world, so it doesn't apply here in the UK.
Who should take responsibility for this? My personal opinion is that a petition needs to be started, the unions need to get stuck in, a snowball needs to be rolled and it needs to be directed right into the doors of parliament and then out of there and into the doors of the press. I wonder what the public would think of airlines that took a 250hr pilot in place of an experienced pilot with over 1000hrs of on type experience, for financial gain?
TB.
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adverse bump if a guy wants to but a type rating off his own back thats his decision, if you dont agree with it thats your decision, you just dont have to be an asshole about it... im sure you could gave the guy some advice with your experience instead of just slagging him off like that. its not even funny. and the next guy who is on here pondering about buying a tr will find absolutely no use of of your absolutely useless posts.
who are you trying to impress? all the other guys who were handed trs in the good times and never had to lift a finger for themselves.. tesco air/ absolutely hilarious you are..
who are you trying to impress? all the other guys who were handed trs in the good times and never had to lift a finger for themselves.. tesco air/ absolutely hilarious you are..
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Welshman obviously got sacked and is sour and just wants to take his anger and frustration out on anyone he can its not our fault ur unemployed and broke we just want advice from people who are not complete A$$HOLES if u have a problem with all this pay for TR mallarky dont get involved and dont post your rotten replies you are just a dic*head
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BUT AS YOU ARE PROBABLY NOT A VERY GOOD PILOT (which is why you paid for a TR)
- The old guard, wanting T & C's like the good old days
- Peeved off wannabes
- Spotters
cks.But that comment 'Adverse-Bump' is one of the most ridiculous generalizations I have heard for a long time. The two concepts of 'paying for a TR' and 'Being a good pilot' are in no way mutually exclusive. Many people I have met in the industry have at some point paid for a TR, will I tar them all with the same brush as being 'bad pilots'? No, because the two things are totally unrelated.
I will say we will more than likely never return to the days of sponsored TR's, accept it guys and get on with it. All you keyboard warriors, sat digging your your heels in at the first sign of change, moaning on an internet forum, shows how out of touch you all are with what is happening in the world.
Welshman obviously got sacked and is sour and just wants to take his anger and frustration out on anyone he can
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Dappyduck heroic post somebody who doesn't have their head buried in the sand and is still living in the world of aviation 20-30 years ago, nice to see someone who claims to have a lot of experience actually in touch with the way things work now in 2010
fly prototype how do you think or how did you pass atpl theory with that horrible level of English. If you actually do have a cpl what makes somebodies license today worth nothing? Did you get a free license issued by a superior authority or something? Do tell?? Maybe I really am missing something.
Tubular I have read none of your posts but I would bet my house on the fact you've lost your first officers job and you are on here to vent your anger. When you do contact the papers don't forget to mention that the 250 hour pilot has all the same licenses as you do and more than likely more ratings than you, as the Meir needs to be current. Also mention that they ate more than likely younger and also have the same type rating endorsed on their license.
fly prototype how do you think or how did you pass atpl theory with that horrible level of English. If you actually do have a cpl what makes somebodies license today worth nothing? Did you get a free license issued by a superior authority or something? Do tell?? Maybe I really am missing something.
Tubular I have read none of your posts but I would bet my house on the fact you've lost your first officers job and you are on here to vent your anger. When you do contact the papers don't forget to mention that the 250 hour pilot has all the same licenses as you do and more than likely more ratings than you, as the Meir needs to be current. Also mention that they ate more than likely younger and also have the same type rating endorsed on their license.
Last edited by Airbusfreak; 10th Feb 2010 at 18:04.
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you just dont have to be an asshole about it...
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...JZ%2012-08.pdf
will i have to read before people realise that these 'cadet first officers' are putting lifes at risk. Its time a hard line is taken. in no other industry would unions allow there members t+cs to be continuously reduced because some idiot isnt willing to get a job by convention means.
What i do day to day is not like any other job, it takes commitment and large amounts of responsibility to be accepted, I always laugh when I hear cabin crew say "xxx air is committed to your safety." at the same time there is a 200 hour cadet fo sat at the front wondering how he is going to pay his bills next month, instead of what am I going to do when this plane trys to kill me. If airlines were truely committed to your safety, then the guys at the front would be 10000 hour boys. while the 200 hour cadet was still learning what a rudder does whilst instructing or flying air taxi.
i would love to go on, but at 5 o'clock tomorrow morning im going to be resposable for a few hundred peoples lifes, so im going to go to bed and rest in my hotel. I wonder how well rested these cadets will be sleeping in there cars in the airport car park...
Welshman obviously got sacked and is sour and just wants to take his anger and frustration out on anyone he can
That's a whole barrel-load of boasting and I'm embarrassed to do it, BUT, there's one too many idiots on this forum who think I'm sour, sacked, old, miserable, bitter, pessimistic or acting out of malice or self interest.
My motivation is always, has always been and always will be, to offer the truth to Wannabes in the face of a wall of spin from Vested Interests keen to separate Wannabes from their Money. If you want to be a pundit then you live and die on your track record. I'm comfortable with mine. My advice, over a decade on here, has proved bang on. Even if I say so myself.
I am the Anthony Bolton of Wannabeism. I just wish it were as lucrative!
WWW
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Tubular I have read none of your posts but I would bet my house on the fact you've lost your first officers job and you are on here to vent your anger. When you do contact the papers don't forget to mention that the 250 hour pilot has all the same licenses as you do and more than likely more ratings than you, as the Meir needs to be current. Also mention that they ate more than likely younger and also have the same type rating endorsed on their license
Unlike so many other very unfortunates, I am employed at the moment and have been for the past 4 years for a large airline. I have no anger to vent and no axe to grind, unlike so many others, I am actually enjoying my job and feel pretty secure. I consider myself to be VERY fortunate. I was simply entering a post discussing my views on what I believe, is a very sad development in our industry at the moment.
What's the point in taking personal pot shots to try and discredit someone's post? Take from it what you think you should and then move on.
Geez...