Bankruptcy - Does it affect employment?
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Anyone know who watches out for PPRUNE regarding legal ramifications to the posts on here? Perhaps they should be made aware of the 'advice' from one of their own moderators?
Calm down dear, its just bankruptcy.
Whether or not I think its a good idea or not I see no reason not to talk about it amongst Wannabes. It is happening. It was predicted to happen. It does work. It is a Wannabe issue. Wannabes who are unaware risk being out-spent in the war of training expenditure.
I paid for all my training bar a bit that the dear old RAF funded. I borrowed money. I paid it back. I've had several mortgages and paid them back. I'm law abiding, I give to charity, I'm slightly to the right of Norman Tebbit. But I have every sympathy for a Wannabe who now finds that it costs a CPL/IR Frzn ATPL MCC + Boing/Bus Type Rating + temporary contract to get a foot on the ladder. I have every sympathy for the Wannabe who found the banks and the schools falling over themselves to arrange £80k+ to be loaned to them based on an assumption of employment that was recklessly optimisitic.
For a bankruptcy court judge his easiest part of the day is extending protection to the 23yr old who owes £80k to HSBC and has nought to his name other than a crappy blue plastic license from the CAA. So much more clear cut and simple than the usual court appearance where some dozy bint ran up £40k on her 5 credit cards and fell behind with the Northern Rock mortgage and the payments on her Mini/iPhone/Store Card.
Thanks for the concerns about legal issues but there are none.
Wannabes are going bankrupt at an ever increasing pace. Some have planned to from the beginning. It is illegal but it is quite logical, practical and it gains them massive advantage.
Telling people that is something I think is right. Clearly you don't.
WWW
Whether or not I think its a good idea or not I see no reason not to talk about it amongst Wannabes. It is happening. It was predicted to happen. It does work. It is a Wannabe issue. Wannabes who are unaware risk being out-spent in the war of training expenditure.
I paid for all my training bar a bit that the dear old RAF funded. I borrowed money. I paid it back. I've had several mortgages and paid them back. I'm law abiding, I give to charity, I'm slightly to the right of Norman Tebbit. But I have every sympathy for a Wannabe who now finds that it costs a CPL/IR Frzn ATPL MCC + Boing/Bus Type Rating + temporary contract to get a foot on the ladder. I have every sympathy for the Wannabe who found the banks and the schools falling over themselves to arrange £80k+ to be loaned to them based on an assumption of employment that was recklessly optimisitic.
For a bankruptcy court judge his easiest part of the day is extending protection to the 23yr old who owes £80k to HSBC and has nought to his name other than a crappy blue plastic license from the CAA. So much more clear cut and simple than the usual court appearance where some dozy bint ran up £40k on her 5 credit cards and fell behind with the Northern Rock mortgage and the payments on her Mini/iPhone/Store Card.
Thanks for the concerns about legal issues but there are none.
Wannabes are going bankrupt at an ever increasing pace. Some have planned to from the beginning. It is illegal but it is quite logical, practical and it gains them massive advantage.
Telling people that is something I think is right. Clearly you don't.
WWW
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I think personal bankruptcy is admirable and logical.
It means nothing these days and the consequences are slight compared to the slog of repaying the debt plus interest.
Those who don't used planned bankruptcy are mugs.
Its easy.
There are very few snags.
Its therefore logical.
and it gains them massive advantage.
It is illegal but it is quite logical.
Calm down dear, its just bankruptcy.
It means nothing these days and the consequences are slight compared to the slog of repaying the debt plus interest.
Those who don't used planned bankruptcy are mugs.
Its easy.
There are very few snags.
Its therefore logical.
and it gains them massive advantage.
It is illegal but it is quite logical.
Calm down dear, its just bankruptcy.
Its easily boggled then.
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Is there any way we can get a poll on here asking how many pilots have declared themselves bankrupt? Would be interesting to see.
You have to treat all these loopholes as all part of the game. Everyone is in on it from the heads of banks, large companies (look at the rover bosses..), to the weasels that run this broken bankrupt rock in the middle of the atlantic. Everyone is on the take.
Its just all part of the game.
You have to treat all these loopholes as all part of the game. Everyone is in on it from the heads of banks, large companies (look at the rover bosses..), to the weasels that run this broken bankrupt rock in the middle of the atlantic. Everyone is on the take.
Its just all part of the game.
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I have two views on this.
If someone, of any age, has been stupid enough to secure their flight training debt against their families homes then the risk is all theirs. Bankruptcy is not and should not be an option. It can not be. These chancers will get what they deserve ultimately. I know that I certainly wouldn't have put my parents home up as security for flight training so that is my justification.
If someone is offered unsecured debt to carry out flight training, the risk is all the banks, they have employed highly paid risk analysts and number crunchers to weigh up the risk. If you want to be a pilot, you'd be a fool not to take it given the chance. If you can't pay it off or it is strangling your life then the sensible thing to do is relieve yourself of it. That risk has been bulit in to the loan. Taking into account the fact that WWW very correctly pointed out that the money never actually existed, just makes the whole process feel that little bit better, fair and even.
In the second, unsecured case it is perhaps exploitation of someones 'weakness' but then again so is what the likes of Ryanair do and people seem more than happy with that don't they?
Everyone needs to do what they need to do and 18-25 year olds that have tapped their parents up with a huge relatively short term debt are going to need to grow up and wise up pretty quickly.
If someone, of any age, has been stupid enough to secure their flight training debt against their families homes then the risk is all theirs. Bankruptcy is not and should not be an option. It can not be. These chancers will get what they deserve ultimately. I know that I certainly wouldn't have put my parents home up as security for flight training so that is my justification.
If someone is offered unsecured debt to carry out flight training, the risk is all the banks, they have employed highly paid risk analysts and number crunchers to weigh up the risk. If you want to be a pilot, you'd be a fool not to take it given the chance. If you can't pay it off or it is strangling your life then the sensible thing to do is relieve yourself of it. That risk has been bulit in to the loan. Taking into account the fact that WWW very correctly pointed out that the money never actually existed, just makes the whole process feel that little bit better, fair and even.
In the second, unsecured case it is perhaps exploitation of someones 'weakness' but then again so is what the likes of Ryanair do and people seem more than happy with that don't they?
Everyone needs to do what they need to do and 18-25 year olds that have tapped their parents up with a huge relatively short term debt are going to need to grow up and wise up pretty quickly.
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so if I have my life savings on deposit with the bank and it goes under because of people failing to pay back the obligations they have signed up for on the other side of the balance sheet.... but it doesn't matter because the money I earnt busting my balls didn't exist anyway.... oh well that alright then.... better tell the folks who had their money with ice-save it didn't exisit anyway.... I am sure they won't give a s**t....
saving money.... borrow as much moooolar as you can then just tell the bank to f'off..... I'm alright jack.... sooo remind me how we got into this mess.... hmmm....
(p.s. I am fully aware of how a fractional reserve banking system works.... I just think you guys sometimes have a very very very twisted view of the world of banking and what is the correct direction for a moral compass to point).
saving money.... borrow as much moooolar as you can then just tell the bank to f'off..... I'm alright jack.... sooo remind me how we got into this mess.... hmmm.... (p.s. I am fully aware of how a fractional reserve banking system works.... I just think you guys sometimes have a very very very twisted view of the world of banking and what is the correct direction for a moral compass to point).
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But the banks for the last 15 years have been lending out more money than they have had on deposits from your hard work anyway?!
Look at northen rock, they were giving out loans 125% value of an over inflated property - a am sure a school child can see that is a bad idea.
Like the beak said, if you can get an unsecured loan, and you have no assets that can be seized (will the bank want my r reg mondeo with 135k on the clock..?) it is the banks problem to worry about.
Any flying lawyers out there to help me on my budding idea?
Look at northen rock, they were giving out loans 125% value of an over inflated property - a am sure a school child can see that is a bad idea.
Like the beak said, if you can get an unsecured loan, and you have no assets that can be seized (will the bank want my r reg mondeo with 135k on the clock..?) it is the banks problem to worry about.
Any flying lawyers out there to help me on my budding idea?
My moral compass would lead me to gassing bankers. To quote a man whom I admire most greatly:
Obviously planned bankruptcy is illegal and can result in your being prosecuted and imprisoned. So its not something to be treated lightly.
However. It is a strategy,i t does work, and Wannabes need to know that they are in a race where other competitors ARE planning to use this strategy.
Almost all Wannabe will be heavily in debt, asset poor and unemployed at the end of their training. Personal bankruptcy is therefore uniquely painless for them. With training debts removed it becomes far easier to fund a type rating and accept casual employment or contracting work wherever it might be.
Wannabes are up against those armed with plans for bankruptcy.
Its a fact.
WWW
I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
Thomas Jefferson,
3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)
Thomas Jefferson,
3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)
Obviously planned bankruptcy is illegal and can result in your being prosecuted and imprisoned. So its not something to be treated lightly.
However. It is a strategy,i t does work, and Wannabes need to know that they are in a race where other competitors ARE planning to use this strategy.
Almost all Wannabe will be heavily in debt, asset poor and unemployed at the end of their training. Personal bankruptcy is therefore uniquely painless for them. With training debts removed it becomes far easier to fund a type rating and accept casual employment or contracting work wherever it might be.
Wannabes are up against those armed with plans for bankruptcy.
Its a fact.
WWW
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It is not just the banks problem but it is the banks calculated risk. UAV, I hear what you are saying and it all sounds good, but, sure as anything there will be latent consequences to bankruptcy that you could never have predicted, certainly going about it the way you are considering. It would appear openly reckless. And you know and I know that it isn't necessary to hurry through it right now. Spread it a bit, make some attempts to repay it, see how you go, and then, if it all becomes too much, bankruptcy is there for you. Transfer 20K to your wife, sign the house over to her and spunk 30K on credit cards all within 2-6 months and you might receive a spell in the slammer!
Anybody would be silly setting out bankruptcy intended. It is like preparing to fail. BUT, it is a tool that is there, for those with unsecured debts and a huge amount of strain which NEEDS to be relieved. It has been calculated as an acceptable risk by the banks. You know, not everyone can win at everything all of the time - and that includes the banks. They would have self perpetuating money otherwise. It is a gamble for the banks that wont always pay off.
The fact of the matter is, you should not allow an unsecured debt to monopolise your life - that's not what life is about. You also should not let it monopolise someone elses though if you have secured the debt - then bankruptcy is not an option.
As for the type of bankruptcy that prat Grant Bovey and Anthea Turner have toyed with several times, that is disgraceful, appauling and deplorable. A hard working trainee pilot who has taken up the banks offer at a chance on their life to achieve their dream, with no security, is not in the same league. It's not in the same multiverse.
Anybody would be silly setting out bankruptcy intended. It is like preparing to fail. BUT, it is a tool that is there, for those with unsecured debts and a huge amount of strain which NEEDS to be relieved. It has been calculated as an acceptable risk by the banks. You know, not everyone can win at everything all of the time - and that includes the banks. They would have self perpetuating money otherwise. It is a gamble for the banks that wont always pay off.
The fact of the matter is, you should not allow an unsecured debt to monopolise your life - that's not what life is about. You also should not let it monopolise someone elses though if you have secured the debt - then bankruptcy is not an option.
As for the type of bankruptcy that prat Grant Bovey and Anthea Turner have toyed with several times, that is disgraceful, appauling and deplorable. A hard working trainee pilot who has taken up the banks offer at a chance on their life to achieve their dream, with no security, is not in the same league. It's not in the same multiverse.
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I honestly dont actually think it is something I will do and have only being playing devil's advocate on this thread for the last 2 days. I would certainly never risk going to jail, for with my looks and cute rear I would get a lot of un-wanted attention, certainly that kind of attention may cause lasting damage that would inhibit the ability to be able to sit down in a first officers seat for an 8 hour flight 
I do however stand by my comments on integrity and about banks lending money they dont have.
people that have seen my previous posts on other threads will have seen that I am all for hard work and earning your right to something. However if I was funding training through loans (which I am not) I certainly wouldnt be worrying myself all the way to beachy head as WWW puts it, and would look at envoking the enterprise act. I believe after all one of the aims of it was to help people setting up buisnesses have some protection when it fails, and enbarking on pilot training could be looked upon as a buisness of your future earnings.
I would still love to know how many pilots have done it, sadly with the unjustified stigma that is still attached to bankruptcy i dont think people 'fess up on here.
I do however stand by my comments on integrity and about banks lending money they dont have.
people that have seen my previous posts on other threads will have seen that I am all for hard work and earning your right to something. However if I was funding training through loans (which I am not) I certainly wouldnt be worrying myself all the way to beachy head as WWW puts it, and would look at envoking the enterprise act. I believe after all one of the aims of it was to help people setting up buisnesses have some protection when it fails, and enbarking on pilot training could be looked upon as a buisness of your future earnings.
I would still love to know how many pilots have done it, sadly with the unjustified stigma that is still attached to bankruptcy i dont think people 'fess up on here.
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There was plenty of money made today on the markets, as my trading account testifies!
Bankruptcy will only serve to blacklist the profession, and no-one will lend to anyone who wants to train.
From my perspective, this is an excellent outcome, and perhaps I will become a sought after skilled employee with a decent salary good conditions and a pay-rise.
Bankruptcy will only serve to blacklist the profession, and no-one will lend to anyone who wants to train.
From my perspective, this is an excellent outcome, and perhaps I will become a sought after skilled employee with a decent salary good conditions and a pay-rise.
Quite so. A lack of credit for flight training would be a godsend for all but the airline beancounters.
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Oh and not forgetting the Flying instructors, and their families and the others whose business is tied to flight training, and the businesses that are afilliated to flight training and their employees and their families.
I wonder if some people sing the national anthem whilst substituting every word with "ME?" Maybe not such a Godsend after all?
I wonder if some people sing the national anthem whilst substituting every word with "ME?" Maybe not such a Godsend after all?
They are all parasites who exist to separate Wannabes from their money.
I have been deep deep deep into the flying training business at all levels. I know that all they care about is the next sucker with a cheque book. Sure, they like it when students get jobs. But they don't care when they don't and they sure as hell don't put anyone off spending their money.
I don't think they are evil. But they deserve no special compassion.
For every school trying to do their best there are two others who are utter sharks.
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I have been deep deep deep into the flying training business at all levels. I know that all they care about is the next sucker with a cheque book. Sure, they like it when students get jobs. But they don't care when they don't and they sure as hell don't put anyone off spending their money.
I don't think they are evil. But they deserve no special compassion.
For every school trying to do their best there are two others who are utter sharks.
WWW
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Most businesses exist to seperate "wannabes" from their money. Your employer exists to seperate passengers from theirs. Your stockbroker, swimming pool supplier and estate agent all exist to separate you from yours.
They don't much care how you raise the money either, only that you can pay for what they are selling.
There are plenty of businesses that take customers money and disappear under the blanket of bankruptcy as well. Do you advocate this practice as well? I am guessing not if it is your swimming pool that is at stake!
They don't much care how you raise the money either, only that you can pay for what they are selling.
There are plenty of businesses that take customers money and disappear under the blanket of bankruptcy as well. Do you advocate this practice as well? I am guessing not if it is your swimming pool that is at stake!
Most businesses exist to seperate "wannabes" from their money. Your employer exists to seperate passengers from theirs. Your stockbroker, swimming pool supplier and estate agent all exist to separate you from yours.
They don't much care how you raise the money either, only that you can pay for what they are selling.
They don't much care how you raise the money either, only that you can pay for what they are selling.
No - my employer, stockbroker (if I had such a thing) and swimming pool supplier deliver a service that I am happy to pay for. They don't peddle a dream that is unattainable under the current industry climate.
And FTO's do peddle lies. Lies of omission. And just plain lies. I've been there and seen them do it. Recently.
You just hate it when someone tells the truth. Therefore you are Satan.
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bealzebub - if all funding for flying training were to dry up, I dont think it would spell then end for all FIs and flying schools.
The airlines would still need aircrew, its just they would have to start paying for their training again.
The supply and demand curve.
HN1708 - all the best with the bankruptcy, I am sure it will be the wisest choice you will make.
If nothing else wannabe's should/could use bankruptcy as a 'training failure protection'. If you fail training and your not cut out for flying but have spent thousands, just press the ctrl alt del keys and reboot, you have lost nothing!
Over the last 2-3 years my black and white financial view on morality and honesty have to be honest been turned upside down. Especially with the expenses/bonus/bail outs that have happened.
The airlines would still need aircrew, its just they would have to start paying for their training again.
The supply and demand curve.
HN1708 - all the best with the bankruptcy, I am sure it will be the wisest choice you will make.
If nothing else wannabe's should/could use bankruptcy as a 'training failure protection'. If you fail training and your not cut out for flying but have spent thousands, just press the ctrl alt del keys and reboot, you have lost nothing!
Over the last 2-3 years my black and white financial view on morality and honesty have to be honest been turned upside down. Especially with the expenses/bonus/bail outs that have happened.
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Thanks UAV689.
My brother is a senior manager in one of the bailed out banks (one with the biggest corporate loss in UK history) and was furious that i was compromising basic living needs to repay his own employers! I literally sold everything i owned that was worth anything on eBay to repay the banks and i only wish i'd seen sense sooner.
Its nice going to sleep at night now not having to worry about to make the next repayment or how i will put petrol in my old car. Amazingly i am now an expert on how far you can go on a fuel light in a car, and trust me its far!
The restrictions and bad credit for becoming bankrupt are well worth not having to repay money i can't afford.
My brother is a senior manager in one of the bailed out banks (one with the biggest corporate loss in UK history) and was furious that i was compromising basic living needs to repay his own employers! I literally sold everything i owned that was worth anything on eBay to repay the banks and i only wish i'd seen sense sooner.
Its nice going to sleep at night now not having to worry about to make the next repayment or how i will put petrol in my old car. Amazingly i am now an expert on how far you can go on a fuel light in a car, and trust me its far!
The restrictions and bad credit for becoming bankrupt are well worth not having to repay money i can't afford.
That is interesting.
When discussions in the past have focussed on planned bankruptcy there has always been a fairly large amount of comment upon the morals of the issue.
I have a hunch that post-crisis the moral dimension will wane. The bail outs and the excesses make a moral argument about banks 'difficult'.
This then raises wider concerns about society. Are the people captured by the Matrix peeking outside their cocoons?
Who knows.
When you are free of debt you suddenly get to see what debt really is and how easily banks live. That's a quote from me, today.
WWW
When discussions in the past have focussed on planned bankruptcy there has always been a fairly large amount of comment upon the morals of the issue.
I have a hunch that post-crisis the moral dimension will wane. The bail outs and the excesses make a moral argument about banks 'difficult'.
This then raises wider concerns about society. Are the people captured by the Matrix peeking outside their cocoons?
Who knows.
When you are free of debt you suddenly get to see what debt really is and how easily banks live. That's a quote from me, today.
WWW