Worth Doing an Instructor Rating during Credit Crunch???
You would be mad to do a FIC now. Window licking mad.
No jobs. No prospect of jobs. No decent pay even if there were.
Forget it.
Total waste of time.
WWW
No jobs. No prospect of jobs. No decent pay even if there were.
Forget it.
Total waste of time.
WWW
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Flying Squid just got your response ,You say you dont know what school ive been to lately and that most flight schools are reasonably busy . then you say your friends are struggling to make ends meat .
Am I missing something .
Take some advice from WWW he was right about the recession and people didn't listen .
Am I missing something .
Take some advice from WWW he was right about the recession and people didn't listen .
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If I was supposed to be one of your students, what would I think?
(Is this person really going to teach me or is he just using my time and money to keep him/her current)
No Offence
n.dave
(Is this person really going to teach me or is he just using my time and money to keep him/her current)
No Offence
n.dave
n.dave - I've taught HUNDREDS of people how to fly aeroplanes. Some of them wanted and did become commercial pilots.
My advice to you now is to stop at Private and enjoy that aspect.
Experienced Airbus/Boeing Captains will be flipping burgers by Christmas.
WWW
My advice to you now is to stop at Private and enjoy that aspect.
Experienced Airbus/Boeing Captains will be flipping burgers by Christmas.
WWW
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Pessimists (they would call themselves realists) - Tunnelvision
Optmists - Tunnelvision
The ones in between have it about right
WWW, that's why any responsible pilot plans his or her career and has the contacts to fall back onto a different flying job should the one directly affected by our 'little money problem' goes balls up.
The ones who only have eyes only for 20+ tonnes of jet perhaps deserve what comes their way... there's aviators and there's aviators.
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Optmists - Tunnelvision
The ones in between have it about right
WWW, that's why any responsible pilot plans his or her career and has the contacts to fall back onto a different flying job should the one directly affected by our 'little money problem' goes balls up.
The ones who only have eyes only for 20+ tonnes of jet perhaps deserve what comes their way... there's aviators and there's aviators.
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Bull****. There are no jobs. There won't be for years.
Its not complicated.
WWW
Its not complicated.
WWW
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Andy, I appreciate everything you say on here - yes, people are blinded, and ambitions cloud the judgment of the otherwise rational person.
However, I am also aware that your experience has remained purely within the boundaries of so called 'professional' aviation. In your world of aviation the skies are darkening and hope diminishes as the sea of unemployed pilots grows by the day, ever fuelled through a continuous influx of inexperienced pilots. Indeed, times are going to get very tough.
But out there exists another world of flying - it takes an expeditious pilot to discover it and a harder one to enter it. And it can't be found on this little island, Europe, the States, or Jerez for that matter.
We both know to where I refer - I talk from experience and have been out there a few times in the past - in many parts of the world, flying is a luxury. Out there it's a necessity.
Open your eyes, you'd be amazed what there is out there.
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However, I am also aware that your experience has remained purely within the boundaries of so called 'professional' aviation. In your world of aviation the skies are darkening and hope diminishes as the sea of unemployed pilots grows by the day, ever fuelled through a continuous influx of inexperienced pilots. Indeed, times are going to get very tough.
But out there exists another world of flying - it takes an expeditious pilot to discover it and a harder one to enter it. And it can't be found on this little island, Europe, the States, or Jerez for that matter.
We both know to where I refer - I talk from experience and have been out there a few times in the past - in many parts of the world, flying is a luxury. Out there it's a necessity.
Open your eyes, you'd be amazed what there is out there.
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Once again appreciate all your thoughts
WWW
I have to disagree with '' there are no jobs out there for Instructors''.
A friend of mine has just finished her FI rating and got a job instructing so there are jobs out there. The busy season is not so far away hence flight schools are going to be busier and will probably require more instructors.
I agree the pay is crap that's why I'd rather work part time to start with. Its not ideal but sometimes you have suffer little evil, for the greater good.
Not doing anything during these times will not do people like me any favours. It could take ages, as you say yourself, for things to get better and when it does we'll all still be in the same boat as we are now.
Imagine this for a second - If in five years time you are a recruitment manager for a major airline and are looking to recruit FO's, how would i appeal to you if i spent all this time working in my current security job (just to pay bills) and still have the same 250 hours TT or would I be more appealing as a Flight Instructor with 2000 hours (who has at least made a bit of an effort)
Reluctant737 - where is this place where flying is a necessity? am i missing something
I've got about a month to make a decision whether to start the FI course so all thought's are appreciated. At the moment i'm leaning more towards ''FI Rating is the wisest move to make''
regards
MHN
WWW
I have to disagree with '' there are no jobs out there for Instructors''.
A friend of mine has just finished her FI rating and got a job instructing so there are jobs out there. The busy season is not so far away hence flight schools are going to be busier and will probably require more instructors.
I agree the pay is crap that's why I'd rather work part time to start with. Its not ideal but sometimes you have suffer little evil, for the greater good.
Not doing anything during these times will not do people like me any favours. It could take ages, as you say yourself, for things to get better and when it does we'll all still be in the same boat as we are now.
Imagine this for a second - If in five years time you are a recruitment manager for a major airline and are looking to recruit FO's, how would i appeal to you if i spent all this time working in my current security job (just to pay bills) and still have the same 250 hours TT or would I be more appealing as a Flight Instructor with 2000 hours (who has at least made a bit of an effort)
Reluctant737 - where is this place where flying is a necessity? am i missing something
I've got about a month to make a decision whether to start the FI course so all thought's are appreciated. At the moment i'm leaning more towards ''FI Rating is the wisest move to make''
regards
MHN
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Bull****. There are no jobs. There won't be for years.
Its not complicated.
WWW
Its not complicated.
WWW
You will have to look away from the populated areas and consider the more remote parts of the UK where the number of FIs looking for work will be less. I am not saying that there will be jobs at the far flung Schools and Clubs in the UK but this is where your best chance will be. Do your research and network and do not expect miracles. FI jobs will be as scarce as airline jobs and the same amount of perseverance will be required to hunt down any elusive vacancies that may exist.
However it might not be as easy as that since many would have to move if they were to exploit such an opportunity and to do so at the moment might be viewed as a gamble. Also, unless you have got a full time position then moving for a FI job will probably not be worth it.
My golden nugget of advice for a FI course has always been the following:
Do not embark on a FI course unless you have a instructional position guaranteed at the end of it.
That applies even more so at the moment...
Good luck to all
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Mile High Nutcase -
There are certain regions of Africa (a little place called Maun is very popular with prospective pilots) where aeroplanes are as common as cars here - I have it on reliable authority that the job market there is in fact busier now than it was one year ago, and tends not to move with the standard economical phugoid. There are many parts of the continent, stricken and isolated from the world, with no 'beaten track' accessibility so to speak. Flying is therefore a necessity, and I know of no less than three mission work (there are many more) companies operating in that region, always looking for pilots due the high turnover rate - experience helps, but there are many courses available specific to the kind of flying you would encounter there. It's mainly medical - the company I flew with in the past involved me flying to various local strips accompanied by a UK nurse, treating those with disease and having suffered various accidents. Unfortunately three weeks from finishing my time there, I suffered a fuel leak over dense jungle and the aeroplane was written off - my companion suffered a broken back, myself a dislocated shoulder and two broken fingers. We then spent 4 hours there before somebody picked us up. So there is an element of danger in this work, and the pressure on you as a pilot is immense. Which is perhaps why so many people steer clear of this path - although judging by the level of selfishness in so many pilots I see on here, perhaps that's a good thing.
Mister Geezer -
You are correct regarding those with the means to train towards a PPL - somebody who makes the plain statement 'people don't have money so they can't afford to fly, go figure' is being incredibly ignorant. The reason is, there are an infinite number of biases not accounted for - everybody's situation is different, and yes, as a statistic, there are less people who learn to fly during a recession, that's a fact. But it's not doomsday - some people are not affected by the economy, some people even gain from it. Here's an example - probably 15-20% of people I met whilst learning to fly were retired. Those people will continue to learn because they have allocated a certain amount of savings into achieving their licence, no matter what. They also tend to take a little longer in learning, and over a longer period, which is good for the school. Another 10-20% were of the 'money no longer matters to me because I am immensely rich and no longer part of the output economy' type, therefore unaffected.
The bottom line, in my opinion - people will ALWAYS want to learn to fly, yes, noticeably less during an economical recession, but we certainly won't be seeing any of the 'doomsday' effects some people tend to me mentioning. The problem with armchair economists is they are just that - too much time to allocate to 'thinking' about every little variable in the world's financial position, and in doing so create their own thought streams which vary massively from what's happening in the real world. If you hit a golfball 1 degree in the wrong direction, after 800 yards the error is considerable.
Get your FI - but only if you are expeditious enough and have the means and 'tie-breaking' allowances to move to the edge of the world in pursuit of work. As I've always said, the problem is not that there is a lack of jobs. It's finding them.
Just my opinion, but still food for thought.
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There are certain regions of Africa (a little place called Maun is very popular with prospective pilots) where aeroplanes are as common as cars here - I have it on reliable authority that the job market there is in fact busier now than it was one year ago, and tends not to move with the standard economical phugoid. There are many parts of the continent, stricken and isolated from the world, with no 'beaten track' accessibility so to speak. Flying is therefore a necessity, and I know of no less than three mission work (there are many more) companies operating in that region, always looking for pilots due the high turnover rate - experience helps, but there are many courses available specific to the kind of flying you would encounter there. It's mainly medical - the company I flew with in the past involved me flying to various local strips accompanied by a UK nurse, treating those with disease and having suffered various accidents. Unfortunately three weeks from finishing my time there, I suffered a fuel leak over dense jungle and the aeroplane was written off - my companion suffered a broken back, myself a dislocated shoulder and two broken fingers. We then spent 4 hours there before somebody picked us up. So there is an element of danger in this work, and the pressure on you as a pilot is immense. Which is perhaps why so many people steer clear of this path - although judging by the level of selfishness in so many pilots I see on here, perhaps that's a good thing.
Mister Geezer -
You are correct regarding those with the means to train towards a PPL - somebody who makes the plain statement 'people don't have money so they can't afford to fly, go figure' is being incredibly ignorant. The reason is, there are an infinite number of biases not accounted for - everybody's situation is different, and yes, as a statistic, there are less people who learn to fly during a recession, that's a fact. But it's not doomsday - some people are not affected by the economy, some people even gain from it. Here's an example - probably 15-20% of people I met whilst learning to fly were retired. Those people will continue to learn because they have allocated a certain amount of savings into achieving their licence, no matter what. They also tend to take a little longer in learning, and over a longer period, which is good for the school. Another 10-20% were of the 'money no longer matters to me because I am immensely rich and no longer part of the output economy' type, therefore unaffected.
The bottom line, in my opinion - people will ALWAYS want to learn to fly, yes, noticeably less during an economical recession, but we certainly won't be seeing any of the 'doomsday' effects some people tend to me mentioning. The problem with armchair economists is they are just that - too much time to allocate to 'thinking' about every little variable in the world's financial position, and in doing so create their own thought streams which vary massively from what's happening in the real world. If you hit a golfball 1 degree in the wrong direction, after 800 yards the error is considerable.
Get your FI - but only if you are expeditious enough and have the means and 'tie-breaking' allowances to move to the edge of the world in pursuit of work. As I've always said, the problem is not that there is a lack of jobs. It's finding them.
Just my opinion, but still food for thought.
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More people are doing the FIC because there aren't the airline jobs available.
At the same time the economy is slowing faster than in the last recession.
Whilst there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that some school remain busy these have to be balanced by the schools that don't shout about the fact they are not opening on Wednesdays or have dropped the instructor pay rate. Flying schools are amongst the ultimate discretionary spend. In the last recession many went bust. They are not very profitable even in the good times..
Once the mass airline redundancies kick in you'll have a flood of ex-instructors returning to the market inbetween van driving.
WWW
At the same time the economy is slowing faster than in the last recession.
Whilst there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that some school remain busy these have to be balanced by the schools that don't shout about the fact they are not opening on Wednesdays or have dropped the instructor pay rate. Flying schools are amongst the ultimate discretionary spend. In the last recession many went bust. They are not very profitable even in the good times..
Once the mass airline redundancies kick in you'll have a flood of ex-instructors returning to the market inbetween van driving.
WWW
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Factor in also that with the credit crunch, not too many banks are going to be giving out large loans especially for flight training, thus the pool of students is going to dry up.
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It won't dry up - it won't remain the same - it will still increase, albeit at a reduced rate.
However, that can only be a good thing either way, and it's a good point
However, that can only be a good thing either way, and it's a good point
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Honestly, flying instruction is poorly paid as it is without everyone flooding the market further while they wait out the poor airline market. With FI jobs getting harder to come by, the next step will be for schools to reduce wages further = no one can afford to instruct. If you don't have any instructional background then you are going into it for the wrong reasons. Having said that, can't blame people for wanting to stay in the game having spent much time and effort on the CPL/IR, must think about the wider implications and weather you really want to teach people.
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TheGlide......
Most school's are still busy. Sorry it's Monday so I may be a bit slow but where did I mention having friends struggling to make ends meet???
The only friends I have that are struggling to make ends meet are the one's instructing. However if this was about money then I wouldn't even consider it. I can earn more money stacking shelves! The whole point of instructing for me is to stay current and as fresh as possible for when the jobs market recovers whenever that maybe. If it means taking a second job to live off then so be it.
As for people not listeneing to WWW's predictions of the end of the world...... Well according to him there should be mass rioting and ararchy on the streets by now....is there....NO! We don't need WWW to tell us what's going on in the world believe it or not. So it's not about people not listening. We've got the wonderful media to pedal the doom and gloom quite enough as it is!!!
But lets not turn this thread into another Doom and Gloom page. It's an interesting point regarding the FI rating at the moment and one that I'm still considering.
Any more thoughts folks???
Most school's are still busy. Sorry it's Monday so I may be a bit slow but where did I mention having friends struggling to make ends meet???
The only friends I have that are struggling to make ends meet are the one's instructing. However if this was about money then I wouldn't even consider it. I can earn more money stacking shelves! The whole point of instructing for me is to stay current and as fresh as possible for when the jobs market recovers whenever that maybe. If it means taking a second job to live off then so be it.
As for people not listeneing to WWW's predictions of the end of the world...... Well according to him there should be mass rioting and ararchy on the streets by now....is there....NO! We don't need WWW to tell us what's going on in the world believe it or not. So it's not about people not listening. We've got the wonderful media to pedal the doom and gloom quite enough as it is!!!
But lets not turn this thread into another Doom and Gloom page. It's an interesting point regarding the FI rating at the moment and one that I'm still considering.
Any more thoughts folks???
You've seen the rioting in Paris & Athens I take it? The unemployment rate climbing to 14.4% in Spain this month, the secondary picketing of UK refineries which is spreading as we speak to power generating plants? The sharp rise in knife crime and the growing unrest for British jobs for British workers?
People said I was doom mongering in Sept 2007 when I was warning of a proper recession coming. You say I am doom mongering because I have been warning about civil unrest. It will happen because it always does happen when you have a deep recession and rising unemployment. I just hope we don't end up back in the situation seen in Liverpool, Birmingham and London where the rioting got so bad policemen had their heads hacked off in the street.
This is not ancient history you know - it was 1985.
Murder of Keith Blakelock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WWW
ps I think £6.5k on an FIC plus the time it takes is a heavy investment at a time of lowering pay and position in the world of basic flying instruction. First FI jobs are all about PPL's. I would strongly believe that in a time of recession there will be a falling number of people interested in obtaining a PPL. So I wouldn't do it.
People said I was doom mongering in Sept 2007 when I was warning of a proper recession coming. You say I am doom mongering because I have been warning about civil unrest. It will happen because it always does happen when you have a deep recession and rising unemployment. I just hope we don't end up back in the situation seen in Liverpool, Birmingham and London where the rioting got so bad policemen had their heads hacked off in the street.
This is not ancient history you know - it was 1985.
Murder of Keith Blakelock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WWW
ps I think £6.5k on an FIC plus the time it takes is a heavy investment at a time of lowering pay and position in the world of basic flying instruction. First FI jobs are all about PPL's. I would strongly believe that in a time of recession there will be a falling number of people interested in obtaining a PPL. So I wouldn't do it.
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People said I was doom mongering in Sept 2007 when I was warning of a proper recession coming.
Just messing, made me chuckle
Anyway guys, it cannae be that bad, it IS snowing after all!
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Yeah it took me 10 mins to get the car out of the gym car park this morning. Snow makes a nice change. Although taking my dog (a Dalmation) for a walk in a snow packed field made for interesting times......watching a random collection of spots running around 300 yards away is a new experience!
WWW - I hadn't seen the rioting abroad if I'm honest. But I doubt the crumbling economy is the sole cause of that. 9/10 people are pissed off at the moment, including me, but I don't feel particualry inclined to go and hack off a coppers head....although another speeding ticket and I may!!!! Just all seems a bit extreme to me. Alright so things are pants in the economy and people are losing their jobs by the day. But I would be amazed if we see scenes like 1985 any time soon. Mind you I suspect they didn't expect it back then either....best tool up then!
WWW - I hadn't seen the rioting abroad if I'm honest. But I doubt the crumbling economy is the sole cause of that. 9/10 people are pissed off at the moment, including me, but I don't feel particualry inclined to go and hack off a coppers head....although another speeding ticket and I may!!!! Just all seems a bit extreme to me. Alright so things are pants in the economy and people are losing their jobs by the day. But I would be amazed if we see scenes like 1985 any time soon. Mind you I suspect they didn't expect it back then either....best tool up then!
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FI Employment Prospects
I hate to be the bearer of doom and gloom but I'll share my experiences with you and you can make your own mind up.
I finished my fATPL and MCC last May and spent 6 fruitless months seeking employment, had a few 'nibbles' but nothing came of them. So I started to investigate the FIC route, I downloaded a standards document from the CAA website which detailed every flight school in the UK authorised to teach PPL. As a married family man living in Somerset I wanted to teach at a school where I could at least stand half a chance of getting home weekends to see the family. So I drew a line across the country at Birmingham and emailed every scholl South of that line to see what the employment situation was.
About 40 or 50 schools bothered to reply and they all said pretty much the same things:
They have enough instructors (several were looking to lay off instructors).
None of their instructors have their notice in and if they did put their notice in they would be allowed to leave and would not be replaced.
The CFI has a huge pile of CVs from qualified FIs looking for work and that my CV would just go to the bottom of the pile.
All the FI schools have their courses booked up so loads of FIs are qualifying and looking for jobs.
Many airline pilots being laid off have instructor tickets and are snapping up FI jobs.
Basically the message was that unless I get a job lined up before commencing the FIC then I would spend 6 weeks and £7000 on the course and still not be in employment, I'd just be £7000 poorer.
Obviously faced with this information I scrapped the idea of the FIC, I would definitely recommend that anyone considering signing up for an FIC should do their research and go into the course with their eyes open, it really is a case of 'buyer beware'
Again I'm sorry for being the bearer of doom and gloom but this was the situation that I faced. If any of you do decide to go ahead with the course then I sincerely wish you every success in the course and in finding gainfull employment after the course. Perhaps if you do find employment you could come onto this thread and rub my nose in it for having no guts and commitment.
Cheers
MM
I finished my fATPL and MCC last May and spent 6 fruitless months seeking employment, had a few 'nibbles' but nothing came of them. So I started to investigate the FIC route, I downloaded a standards document from the CAA website which detailed every flight school in the UK authorised to teach PPL. As a married family man living in Somerset I wanted to teach at a school where I could at least stand half a chance of getting home weekends to see the family. So I drew a line across the country at Birmingham and emailed every scholl South of that line to see what the employment situation was.
About 40 or 50 schools bothered to reply and they all said pretty much the same things:
They have enough instructors (several were looking to lay off instructors).
None of their instructors have their notice in and if they did put their notice in they would be allowed to leave and would not be replaced.
The CFI has a huge pile of CVs from qualified FIs looking for work and that my CV would just go to the bottom of the pile.
All the FI schools have their courses booked up so loads of FIs are qualifying and looking for jobs.
Many airline pilots being laid off have instructor tickets and are snapping up FI jobs.
Basically the message was that unless I get a job lined up before commencing the FIC then I would spend 6 weeks and £7000 on the course and still not be in employment, I'd just be £7000 poorer.
Obviously faced with this information I scrapped the idea of the FIC, I would definitely recommend that anyone considering signing up for an FIC should do their research and go into the course with their eyes open, it really is a case of 'buyer beware'
Again I'm sorry for being the bearer of doom and gloom but this was the situation that I faced. If any of you do decide to go ahead with the course then I sincerely wish you every success in the course and in finding gainfull employment after the course. Perhaps if you do find employment you could come onto this thread and rub my nose in it for having no guts and commitment.
Cheers
MM
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magicmick.....
Great post. Cheers for that. I'm still a little undecided but your post has put another nail in the coffin of the FI rating for me unless I was offered a job prior to embarking on the additional training. As you said, I too am not really willing to go and spunk another £7k on training without knowing it'll pay off.
I've said above that me looking at instructing isnt about the money and is very much about staying current and fresh. However, it would become all about the money if I did the FI and couldn't get an instructing job. Fine line between having some invaluable experience and something beneficial on the CV and having another rating but no hours instructing and another £7k to pay back. hmmmmmmmm......
FS
(Off to find a big wall to bang my head against!!!)
Great post. Cheers for that. I'm still a little undecided but your post has put another nail in the coffin of the FI rating for me unless I was offered a job prior to embarking on the additional training. As you said, I too am not really willing to go and spunk another £7k on training without knowing it'll pay off.
I've said above that me looking at instructing isnt about the money and is very much about staying current and fresh. However, it would become all about the money if I did the FI and couldn't get an instructing job. Fine line between having some invaluable experience and something beneficial on the CV and having another rating but no hours instructing and another £7k to pay back. hmmmmmmmm......
FS
(Off to find a big wall to bang my head against!!!)