The Truth with Ryanair and SSTRs
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The Truth with Ryanair and SSTRs
I've read six or seven threads in the last few months that have said that getting a job at Ryanair is now simply a case of showing that you have the ability to fly to a safe and reasonable level and more importantly that you have the ability to pay for the type rating. Is this true? I'm going to be finishing my CPL/IR in June and to my complete suprise I found out on Wednesday that a relative that I have never met has just died and very generously left me enough money to pay for a type rating (with a little left over for a few other bits and bobs). I really would prefer to go to someone like FR and start flying straight away and gaining the experience I need as opposed to firing off CVs. However I'm also thinking maybe going to GECAT or CAE for a SSTR might be a good idea as everyone I have known that has gone to either of these TRTOs has ended up with a job with six months.
If Ryanair is a reality, I'll do it, but I just want peoples honest opinion on it. How easy is it to get an interview and how long will I wait to be invited to one? I am considering the Ryanair approved MCC if it proves to be a more efficient way of getting a job?
If Ryanair is a reality, I'll do it, but I just want peoples honest opinion on it. How easy is it to get an interview and how long will I wait to be invited to one? I am considering the Ryanair approved MCC if it proves to be a more efficient way of getting a job?
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FirstofficerYonder,
If you read the newspapers I would think twice about blowing your inheritence on a SSTR with Ryanair. It's looking very likely that the UK is heading for recession. What Ryanair are offering is not employment but self-employment through a contracting agency. This may look ok to some but experience shows that in a downturn contractors are the first to go. A cynical person would say that Ryanair are aware of this and that's why they are only offering contracts through Brookfield, it limits their moral, legal and financial responsibilites if redundancies occur.
I am aware that Ryanair have tonnes of cash and that they can fly for 2 years without any customers and still remain solvent, as quoted on a open day. However, do you really think that they'll hand over this cash to contractors for free? I think not. It wouldn't make sense when you don't legally have to. Remember RY didn't get to where it is today by being generous.
If I was you I'd put the money down on a nice 2 bedroom flat, preferably near a Uni town or FTO and rent the spare room out. At least you have a roof over your head, as long as you can pay the mortgage. You'd get a bargain at the moment with prices droping 10 to 17%.
If you really want to do a SSTR, do it through GECAT or CAE at least you'd be employed, covered by a union and if it does go tits up you'd have some legal rights which you wouldn't get at Ryanair.
Anyway, Like I've said before it's upto you but in this economic climate I'd be very weary of blowing £30,000 and not being employed as an employee but a contractor.
best wishes and good luck
Orvil
If you read the newspapers I would think twice about blowing your inheritence on a SSTR with Ryanair. It's looking very likely that the UK is heading for recession. What Ryanair are offering is not employment but self-employment through a contracting agency. This may look ok to some but experience shows that in a downturn contractors are the first to go. A cynical person would say that Ryanair are aware of this and that's why they are only offering contracts through Brookfield, it limits their moral, legal and financial responsibilites if redundancies occur.
I am aware that Ryanair have tonnes of cash and that they can fly for 2 years without any customers and still remain solvent, as quoted on a open day. However, do you really think that they'll hand over this cash to contractors for free? I think not. It wouldn't make sense when you don't legally have to. Remember RY didn't get to where it is today by being generous.
If I was you I'd put the money down on a nice 2 bedroom flat, preferably near a Uni town or FTO and rent the spare room out. At least you have a roof over your head, as long as you can pay the mortgage. You'd get a bargain at the moment with prices droping 10 to 17%.
If you really want to do a SSTR, do it through GECAT or CAE at least you'd be employed, covered by a union and if it does go tits up you'd have some legal rights which you wouldn't get at Ryanair.
Anyway, Like I've said before it's upto you but in this economic climate I'd be very weary of blowing £30,000 and not being employed as an employee but a contractor.
best wishes and good luck
Orvil
What a great idea lets go and spend money at CAE or GECAT without a job offer and be guaranteed what exactly? 
Christ do you actually work for Ryanair? If the market takes a turn for the worst we will be much like anyone else, we'll all be worried about our jobs! What do you suppose he should do? Suddenly stop all training now because there is a chance of a downturn and effectively blow all the money he's spent up to now? Or buy a house and see his investment loose value as the housing market contracts like its doing now as you pointed out? Or even better join a proper airline as you mention and then get fired because you were last in so you are first out much like Virgin and SAS have done in the past. Cracking idea I wish you were my accountant!
If you want to get into RYR providing you are good enough and its not a given you will be given a job you will be in a much better off position than if you hadn't have done it.
Christ do you actually work for Ryanair? If the market takes a turn for the worst we will be much like anyone else, we'll all be worried about our jobs! What do you suppose he should do? Suddenly stop all training now because there is a chance of a downturn and effectively blow all the money he's spent up to now? Or buy a house and see his investment loose value as the housing market contracts like its doing now as you pointed out? Or even better join a proper airline as you mention and then get fired because you were last in so you are first out much like Virgin and SAS have done in the past. Cracking idea I wish you were my accountant!
If you want to get into RYR providing you are good enough and its not a given you will be given a job you will be in a much better off position than if you hadn't have done it.
Last edited by Rhodes13; 19th Jan 2008 at 19:07. Reason: Spelling
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Look at it this way, if Ryanair was the quickest to recover after sep11th I wouldnt really worry about loosing my job with them,
If people start spending less. they will stop goin on expensive flights!
If people start spending less. they will stop goin on expensive flights!
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Somebody's been smoking something.
Buy a house - with 30K and no job to support mortgage? Good luck. If a recession is to hit it would be better to have a job with the hope that you won't loose it than not having a job at all. Also this panic about recession . Who is to say how hard it will hit.
Go with Ryanair and then once you reach 500hrs apply to the more classy arlines, but don't hold back!
Buy a house - with 30K and no job to support mortgage? Good luck. If a recession is to hit it would be better to have a job with the hope that you won't loose it than not having a job at all. Also this panic about recession . Who is to say how hard it will hit.
Go with Ryanair and then once you reach 500hrs apply to the more classy arlines, but don't hold back!
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I think its you who has been smoking! It looks very much like the US is, or is about to enter a recession. 500hrs on type, more classy airline? Am I missing something here? So its that easy eh sexypilot? 
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At present from what stats I know Ryanair - yes definitely, and I never said it would be easy to move airlines once you've got the required hours. But why not have a go? BA hire from 500 hr mark if you haven't done integrated for example. There's so many people on this site who are going to get nowhere in this business, because they can't see where the Gaps are open and for opportunities to be taken up.
Also my point is it is very difficult to predict how anything will be effected if a recesion happens.
My point is very valid and I believe support should be given to sensible suggestions - not riduclous people who ave given up who assume a type rating costs the same as a flat!
As for paying for a TR. In an ideal world I wouldn't have such a system, but this world is unfair and run by a select few at the top who by the Help of banks like HSBC giving away loans have had a massive selection of pilots to choose from and realised they can also charge.
The only way sponsorship will return is just after a recesion where HSBC and alike have not been able to fund training and selection pool to choose from is at the point of vanishing. This could be quite a long wait and there will be imense competition for places when this happens. Don't let a good thing slip out of your hands when getting into an airline like Ryanair hasn't been easier!
Also my point is it is very difficult to predict how anything will be effected if a recesion happens.
My point is very valid and I believe support should be given to sensible suggestions - not riduclous people who ave given up who assume a type rating costs the same as a flat!
As for paying for a TR. In an ideal world I wouldn't have such a system, but this world is unfair and run by a select few at the top who by the Help of banks like HSBC giving away loans have had a massive selection of pilots to choose from and realised they can also charge.
The only way sponsorship will return is just after a recesion where HSBC and alike have not been able to fund training and selection pool to choose from is at the point of vanishing. This could be quite a long wait and there will be imense competition for places when this happens. Don't let a good thing slip out of your hands when getting into an airline like Ryanair hasn't been easier!
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Hi all,
Wow! I'm always constantly surprised by how many Pilots and Potential Pilots can't read a basic sentence.
Did I write anywhere that you can purchase a flat for £30000 ? No I didn't. Lets read that sentence again for those who are behind the curve.
"If I was you I'd put the money down on a nice 2 bedroom flat, preferably near a Uni town or FTO and rent the spare room out."
I think the key part of the sentence is this, "I'd put money down ". This I would presume meant as in DEPOSIT not full capital outlay.
Its a good investment time if you have the deposit and can afford the mortgage. Hence, "as long as you can pay the mortgage. You'd get a bargain at the moment with prices droping 10 to 17% ".
If you don't agree thats upto you but most of the property press state that if you can get the deposit together and can afford a mortagege it a great time to buy. If your in for the longterm you will not loose out, Property always goes up in the longterm. If your looking for a short-term investment yes it would be pretty stupid.
Also to start a thread with "Christ" is somewhat aggresive and blasphemous. Then to belittle my opinion is somewhat "modern A-level" standard level of argument. The basis of my argument is that being employed by an airline is somewhat safer than being a contractor. You have legal rights. As a Ryanair/Brookfield contractor you have none. Nothing.
Yes, I understand that its better to do something than nothing but at what cost? CaptainYonder was asking about Ryanair and GECAT thats what I gave my opinion on. Did I state anywhere that he should give up his training? No I didn't.
I also think Ryanair should be the last port of call at the moment, if you can get into GECAT etc you'd be better off at the moment. Now if Ryanair decide that they want to employ people properly. That is a completely different situation. You will be employed and therefore have rights!
To bring in Virgin and SAS as evidence is afine example of how legal rights work, I believe they where offered redundancy and given help finding jobs. I don't think Ryanair would do the same ? Why would they ? They have no legal obligation to assist financial or otherwise plus they have no Union recognition and therefore nobody to negotiate for you.
Somebody also stated that Ryanair will be ok as their fares are so cheap it won't affect them. I differ on that one. Yes, lots of flights are very cheap but thats at the moment. What about rising costs? Fuel, handling, etc? Also where do people go when they get to there destination ? Hotels. Do they eat? Restaurants , Travel insurance, the list of other costs goes on. Remember this is an airline that charges for suitcases and most destination are actually nowhere near the destination! Hence, every year RY get fined by the advertising watch dog for misleading customers.
At the end of the day CaptainYonder asked for advice and opinion. I gave it, in the first person as "If I was you" as in "me". Did I write "you should do this" . No I didn't. I wrote about what "I" would do with £30,000.
Educationally speaking this site is so depressing, the level of basic understanding of written communication is dreadful. How did you lot pass any of your exams?
Bring back proper "o" levels and closed book exams.
Sorry, just a little extra. Rhodes, your from Australia? Do you live in the UK? Well, if your in the UK I think your opinion is somewhat hypocritical. Why aren't you flying in OZ? Don't tell me the T&C's are crap, no jobs etc.. So I tell you what, come over to the UK and ruin our T&C's that Unions and decent management have worked hard for. Everytime someone takes a job with lower T&C's (as in Ryanair/brookfield) it lowers the whole industry eg. Look at OZ. Theres a Pilot shortage now, because ? Because theirs no financial point in doing the job !
Don't tell me that its not just about money. Yes it is! I was an accountant and when I was doing my training I was told by the senior partner this great quote "At the end of the day nobody gives a **** what you do. It's all about what house you live in and what car you drive! "
So when you next visit your Bank and need to borrow some money tell them your a Pilot, I'm sure the Bank Manager will fall over, bring out the silver and offer you tea. Yeah, right. More likely show you the door.
I've also noticed that many of the contributors ages are 20 to 25. So do you remember a recession? Have you any idea what it's like? I graduated at the last recession (great timing I know) and do you know what most people do? They don't spend because they don't have any money. What they do have goes into their houses. Not on flying to Europe or holidays. Thats a fact.
Goodluck and bestwishes.
Orvil
Wow! I'm always constantly surprised by how many Pilots and Potential Pilots can't read a basic sentence.
Did I write anywhere that you can purchase a flat for £30000 ? No I didn't. Lets read that sentence again for those who are behind the curve.
"If I was you I'd put the money down on a nice 2 bedroom flat, preferably near a Uni town or FTO and rent the spare room out."
I think the key part of the sentence is this, "I'd put money down ". This I would presume meant as in DEPOSIT not full capital outlay.
Its a good investment time if you have the deposit and can afford the mortgage. Hence, "as long as you can pay the mortgage. You'd get a bargain at the moment with prices droping 10 to 17% ".
If you don't agree thats upto you but most of the property press state that if you can get the deposit together and can afford a mortagege it a great time to buy. If your in for the longterm you will not loose out, Property always goes up in the longterm. If your looking for a short-term investment yes it would be pretty stupid.
Also to start a thread with "Christ" is somewhat aggresive and blasphemous. Then to belittle my opinion is somewhat "modern A-level" standard level of argument. The basis of my argument is that being employed by an airline is somewhat safer than being a contractor. You have legal rights. As a Ryanair/Brookfield contractor you have none. Nothing.
Yes, I understand that its better to do something than nothing but at what cost? CaptainYonder was asking about Ryanair and GECAT thats what I gave my opinion on. Did I state anywhere that he should give up his training? No I didn't.
I also think Ryanair should be the last port of call at the moment, if you can get into GECAT etc you'd be better off at the moment. Now if Ryanair decide that they want to employ people properly. That is a completely different situation. You will be employed and therefore have rights!
To bring in Virgin and SAS as evidence is afine example of how legal rights work, I believe they where offered redundancy and given help finding jobs. I don't think Ryanair would do the same ? Why would they ? They have no legal obligation to assist financial or otherwise plus they have no Union recognition and therefore nobody to negotiate for you.
Somebody also stated that Ryanair will be ok as their fares are so cheap it won't affect them. I differ on that one. Yes, lots of flights are very cheap but thats at the moment. What about rising costs? Fuel, handling, etc? Also where do people go when they get to there destination ? Hotels. Do they eat? Restaurants , Travel insurance, the list of other costs goes on. Remember this is an airline that charges for suitcases and most destination are actually nowhere near the destination! Hence, every year RY get fined by the advertising watch dog for misleading customers.
At the end of the day CaptainYonder asked for advice and opinion. I gave it, in the first person as "If I was you" as in "me". Did I write "you should do this" . No I didn't. I wrote about what "I" would do with £30,000.
Educationally speaking this site is so depressing, the level of basic understanding of written communication is dreadful. How did you lot pass any of your exams?
Bring back proper "o" levels and closed book exams.
Sorry, just a little extra. Rhodes, your from Australia? Do you live in the UK? Well, if your in the UK I think your opinion is somewhat hypocritical. Why aren't you flying in OZ? Don't tell me the T&C's are crap, no jobs etc.. So I tell you what, come over to the UK and ruin our T&C's that Unions and decent management have worked hard for. Everytime someone takes a job with lower T&C's (as in Ryanair/brookfield) it lowers the whole industry eg. Look at OZ. Theres a Pilot shortage now, because ? Because theirs no financial point in doing the job !
Don't tell me that its not just about money. Yes it is! I was an accountant and when I was doing my training I was told by the senior partner this great quote "At the end of the day nobody gives a **** what you do. It's all about what house you live in and what car you drive! "
So when you next visit your Bank and need to borrow some money tell them your a Pilot, I'm sure the Bank Manager will fall over, bring out the silver and offer you tea. Yeah, right. More likely show you the door.
I've also noticed that many of the contributors ages are 20 to 25. So do you remember a recession? Have you any idea what it's like? I graduated at the last recession (great timing I know) and do you know what most people do? They don't spend because they don't have any money. What they do have goes into their houses. Not on flying to Europe or holidays. Thats a fact.
Goodluck and bestwishes.
Orvil
Last edited by Orvil; 20th Jan 2008 at 11:12.
Is being a xenophobe part of being british now is it?
No i left Australia of my own choosing to come to the UK because I am of European descent but thanks for asking!
As for lowering the bar its seems that the boys at the majors are doing a pretty good job of that at the moment without the help of RYR. Lets just look at Aer Lingus and the current Open Skies/ Project Lauren. But hang on your going to say BALPA is trying protect its members? Do you really think BALPA will achieve its aims with stopping BA given the fact they have already allowed similar schemes in the past with connect, go and all the franchises? Yes you'll have legal rights but you'll get stuff all from the company if you've been there for such a small period of time.
No I understood exactly what you meant. But lets look at it this way. I earn decent money from RYR, I dont like the way they conduct their business but I CHOOSE to take the risks to advance my career and as you put it in your willy measuring contest to get the big house and nice car!
Surely its better to have 500 hours in the bank and get paid for it than spending your time sitting on the sideline looking at other people get ahead of you? Our young friend has a choice. Spend more money to become an FI etc and maybe miss a great oppurtunity or play the game and get into a LOCO and advance his career now?
I can read what you wrote and I still see no great advantage of putting a deposit down on an asset that is greatly over inflated in value and if/when the bubble bursts could see a fair chunk of it disappear in a puff of smoke! Yes in the long term you'll be better off but that doesn't help our newbie in putting food on his plate now!
As for being aggressive and blasphemous I only do that when people pontificate from their ivory towers telling newbies not to do this or that and that by doing this they will destroy Terms for everyone. Surely its the incumbents that have allowed this happen that have destroyed it? But that's a whole other argument!
Rant over
No i left Australia of my own choosing to come to the UK because I am of European descent but thanks for asking!
As for lowering the bar its seems that the boys at the majors are doing a pretty good job of that at the moment without the help of RYR. Lets just look at Aer Lingus and the current Open Skies/ Project Lauren. But hang on your going to say BALPA is trying protect its members? Do you really think BALPA will achieve its aims with stopping BA given the fact they have already allowed similar schemes in the past with connect, go and all the franchises? Yes you'll have legal rights but you'll get stuff all from the company if you've been there for such a small period of time.
No I understood exactly what you meant. But lets look at it this way. I earn decent money from RYR, I dont like the way they conduct their business but I CHOOSE to take the risks to advance my career and as you put it in your willy measuring contest to get the big house and nice car!
Surely its better to have 500 hours in the bank and get paid for it than spending your time sitting on the sideline looking at other people get ahead of you? Our young friend has a choice. Spend more money to become an FI etc and maybe miss a great oppurtunity or play the game and get into a LOCO and advance his career now?
I can read what you wrote and I still see no great advantage of putting a deposit down on an asset that is greatly over inflated in value and if/when the bubble bursts could see a fair chunk of it disappear in a puff of smoke! Yes in the long term you'll be better off but that doesn't help our newbie in putting food on his plate now!
As for being aggressive and blasphemous I only do that when people pontificate from their ivory towers telling newbies not to do this or that and that by doing this they will destroy Terms for everyone. Surely its the incumbents that have allowed this happen that have destroyed it? But that's a whole other argument!
Rant over
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Reply to orginial thread question
I shall take the dramatic stance of answering the question that actually started this thread. The question as I remember it was 'Is it simply a case of paying the money' The answer is yes.
Unfortunately the primary measure of your suitability to get into Ryanair is your bank balance.
When I did the Ryanair type rating course the difference in standard and ability was staggering. Their were pilots whom you would follow into the cockpit purely out of curiosity and there were pilots who clearly were very very able. The majority were in the middle. It was clear that there were pilots who were not going to make line training just by their struggle in various stages of the course whilst their were pilots who clearly found the whole experience very easy.
The ages ranged from 19 to 52yrs old with the majority being 500-1500hrs but a significant number of light jet and turboprop experience LHS & RHS with more than 2000 hrs at one end and 5 with less than 260hrs TT at the other end.
Whilst at SAS there were 16 on every course there and there were 3 courses at any one time the profile of the students was very similar across all the courses I met.
So that's the course, as for getting on the course. It is slightly harder than getting a McDonald's the selection procedure is in no way robust and the hardest part is actually getting an interview date. The selection procedure is not designed to be robust as FR solely care about getting qualified bums on seats, the selection procedure is line training.
As you pay for everything this is not surprising. FR have nothing to loose. SAS have good standards (usually) and ensure that you reach the standard if you are able and as such FR rely on SAS to do the selecting at your own expense which is why so many fail line training or the type rating. Pros and Cons of this approach is that if you are good enough then you will get in and if you aren't then you will not pass the line training. Unfortunately it means that many places are wasted with pilots who would have little prospect of success when in reality had they got some more time elsewhere they would have been fine.
This however does not affect FR or FRs safety as only those who are able pass line so the only people who loose are those who think they are ready but aren't!
Is it worth it? Even if you only go along type rate, do line training and then jump ship when you are offered the Brookfield contract its worth it as you have something that others wont have namely a few hundred hrs on type in brand new aircraft.
As for getting an interview in the first place, well traditionally that is the barrier between those who aspire and those who are doing. Passing interviews is never the hard part, nor is demonstrating the aptitude, either you have it or you don't so getting the interview is the part that makes the difference.
Getting the interview? Some on our course had been dragged onto the course a few days before as pilots had dropped out due to money issues, some had applied over a year before so random has to be the order of the day. If you chase the correct people at SAS or CAE then you can be on a course in a matter of days or weeks. It really is all about the money not your ability in any way shape or form. So if you have the cash, what are you waiting for?
VT
Unfortunately the primary measure of your suitability to get into Ryanair is your bank balance.
When I did the Ryanair type rating course the difference in standard and ability was staggering. Their were pilots whom you would follow into the cockpit purely out of curiosity and there were pilots who clearly were very very able. The majority were in the middle. It was clear that there were pilots who were not going to make line training just by their struggle in various stages of the course whilst their were pilots who clearly found the whole experience very easy.
The ages ranged from 19 to 52yrs old with the majority being 500-1500hrs but a significant number of light jet and turboprop experience LHS & RHS with more than 2000 hrs at one end and 5 with less than 260hrs TT at the other end.
Whilst at SAS there were 16 on every course there and there were 3 courses at any one time the profile of the students was very similar across all the courses I met.
So that's the course, as for getting on the course. It is slightly harder than getting a McDonald's the selection procedure is in no way robust and the hardest part is actually getting an interview date. The selection procedure is not designed to be robust as FR solely care about getting qualified bums on seats, the selection procedure is line training.
As you pay for everything this is not surprising. FR have nothing to loose. SAS have good standards (usually) and ensure that you reach the standard if you are able and as such FR rely on SAS to do the selecting at your own expense which is why so many fail line training or the type rating. Pros and Cons of this approach is that if you are good enough then you will get in and if you aren't then you will not pass the line training. Unfortunately it means that many places are wasted with pilots who would have little prospect of success when in reality had they got some more time elsewhere they would have been fine.
This however does not affect FR or FRs safety as only those who are able pass line so the only people who loose are those who think they are ready but aren't!
Is it worth it? Even if you only go along type rate, do line training and then jump ship when you are offered the Brookfield contract its worth it as you have something that others wont have namely a few hundred hrs on type in brand new aircraft.
As for getting an interview in the first place, well traditionally that is the barrier between those who aspire and those who are doing. Passing interviews is never the hard part, nor is demonstrating the aptitude, either you have it or you don't so getting the interview is the part that makes the difference.
Getting the interview? Some on our course had been dragged onto the course a few days before as pilots had dropped out due to money issues, some had applied over a year before so random has to be the order of the day. If you chase the correct people at SAS or CAE then you can be on a course in a matter of days or weeks. It really is all about the money not your ability in any way shape or form. So if you have the cash, what are you waiting for?
VT
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Rhodes,
You've done it again!
I'm not xenophobic but was stating how messed up the Oz Pilot market is because of tarts flying for practically nothing. Your basis of argument is that the "newbie" would be better off paying RYR etc and getting 500 hours.
Guess what ? What if the recession is long standing and he/she doesn't get 500 hours before being let go. I believe the contract has no obligations apart from that brookfield will pay you "schedule" flight time per hour. No basic not even the actual hours of work. You couldn't make it up if you tried.
So from your argument its better to blow £30,000 and have a contract with brookfield that pay you per hour of flight. So if the **** its the fan, your on your own - financially.
You've been lucky, right place right time. My argument was that it's probably not the best time to go the RYR route. If RYR are so confident that their business model is recession proof why don't they employ Pilots directly? Reason because they know whats round the corner. The employ (contract?) economists to predict this stuff. hence, Brookfield or nothing.
I also don't think "£30,000" is playing the game. As you put it. If you think £30000 is a small amount of money you must come from a very previleged back ground. Good for you.
Like I said in my reply, It's what I would do with £30,000. I wasn't pontificating (you should do this etc), it's what I would do with £30000 in this climate.
Your also presuming that the Captainyonder isn't employed at the moment. Like I said "if you can afford the mortgage" in my original reply. You and I know nothing of this mans/womens background. Hence, (again) that why I said "I would " because I'm taking into account my own background.
If I was going to do a SSTR at the moment I'd do the ATR42/72 through blueskyaviation. Lots of promise, 98% employment and every country in the world is having them India, China, Africa etc pretty recession proof. If your prepared to relocate (just like RYR !). This is the best part, its only £16000!
So our newbie would have change too!
like I keep saying .... It's upto you, not me or anybody else, it's your money not mine. Being a Pilot is about making decisions and its CaptainYonders nobody elses.
Cheerio
I'm bored now,
Orvil
You've done it again!
I'm not xenophobic but was stating how messed up the Oz Pilot market is because of tarts flying for practically nothing. Your basis of argument is that the "newbie" would be better off paying RYR etc and getting 500 hours.
Guess what ? What if the recession is long standing and he/she doesn't get 500 hours before being let go. I believe the contract has no obligations apart from that brookfield will pay you "schedule" flight time per hour. No basic not even the actual hours of work. You couldn't make it up if you tried.
So from your argument its better to blow £30,000 and have a contract with brookfield that pay you per hour of flight. So if the **** its the fan, your on your own - financially.
You've been lucky, right place right time. My argument was that it's probably not the best time to go the RYR route. If RYR are so confident that their business model is recession proof why don't they employ Pilots directly? Reason because they know whats round the corner. The employ (contract?) economists to predict this stuff. hence, Brookfield or nothing.
I also don't think "£30,000" is playing the game. As you put it. If you think £30000 is a small amount of money you must come from a very previleged back ground. Good for you.
Like I said in my reply, It's what I would do with £30,000. I wasn't pontificating (you should do this etc), it's what I would do with £30000 in this climate.
Your also presuming that the Captainyonder isn't employed at the moment. Like I said "if you can afford the mortgage" in my original reply. You and I know nothing of this mans/womens background. Hence, (again) that why I said "I would " because I'm taking into account my own background.
If I was going to do a SSTR at the moment I'd do the ATR42/72 through blueskyaviation. Lots of promise, 98% employment and every country in the world is having them India, China, Africa etc pretty recession proof. If your prepared to relocate (just like RYR !). This is the best part, its only £16000!
So our newbie would have change too!
like I keep saying .... It's upto you, not me or anybody else, it's your money not mine. Being a Pilot is about making decisions and its CaptainYonders nobody elses.
Cheerio
I'm bored now,
Orvil
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Start firing CV's and if you don't get any replies go the Ryanair route.
Don't just waist money that you have without being sure of it turning into an investment.
It doesn't cost much to fire CV's after all, if you're too lazy to do that which reflects lack of motivation, it means that you're going the wrong way anyway, and that you won't be succesful at any interview.
Don't just waist money that you have without being sure of it turning into an investment.
It doesn't cost much to fire CV's after all, if you're too lazy to do that which reflects lack of motivation, it means that you're going the wrong way anyway, and that you won't be succesful at any interview.
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Orvil,
Perhaps if you didn't write lengthy, side tracking dissertations, there would be less for others to misunderstand and then you would not have to write tedious and tiresome defenses of what you wrote earlier.
Perhaps if you didn't write lengthy, side tracking dissertations, there would be less for others to misunderstand and then you would not have to write tedious and tiresome defenses of what you wrote earlier.
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Spanner in the works!
Hi All,
Just wanted to point out something...
I'm just about to start my training and am getting sick of people going on about this bloody recession! What is everyone supposed to do, run and hide with their bundles of cash until the storm blows over!
I was somewhat enlightened after doing my business plan a few months ago to find that Sept 11th wasn't as bigger deal for the industry as they like to make out. The vast majority of all UK major airlines were back to making a profit within a year and back to growing their profits within 18 months. And those figures are published on the CAA website! So...if that's what 911 did I'm not overly worried about a recession. Besides, recession doesn't mean that people will stop spending, it just means that they will stop spending on things like a new sofa or a new car. They will still go away for their 2 weeks in Spain or whatever. The long haul sector will be hit with people sacraficing their life time breaks to Aus for a fortnight in Cyprus.
Honestly, I don't like the sound of a recession either and it won't be a picnic for anyone but I'm not going to stop my training and stick working as an accountant because of it.
CS
Just wanted to point out something...
I'm just about to start my training and am getting sick of people going on about this bloody recession! What is everyone supposed to do, run and hide with their bundles of cash until the storm blows over!
I was somewhat enlightened after doing my business plan a few months ago to find that Sept 11th wasn't as bigger deal for the industry as they like to make out. The vast majority of all UK major airlines were back to making a profit within a year and back to growing their profits within 18 months. And those figures are published on the CAA website! So...if that's what 911 did I'm not overly worried about a recession. Besides, recession doesn't mean that people will stop spending, it just means that they will stop spending on things like a new sofa or a new car. They will still go away for their 2 weeks in Spain or whatever. The long haul sector will be hit with people sacraficing their life time breaks to Aus for a fortnight in Cyprus.
Honestly, I don't like the sound of a recession either and it won't be a picnic for anyone but I'm not going to stop my training and stick working as an accountant because of it.
CS
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P.S
Just seen Orvil's comments above....
I very much suspect that the reason RYR will be favouring contract pilots is because if you make someone redundant you are not legally allowed to re-fill that position within 6 months. i.e if they lay off one FO they cannot recruit another one for 6 months!
But I'm no employment lawyer so feel free to correct me on that
CS
I very much suspect that the reason RYR will be favouring contract pilots is because if you make someone redundant you are not legally allowed to re-fill that position within 6 months. i.e if they lay off one FO they cannot recruit another one for 6 months!
But I'm no employment lawyer so feel free to correct me on that
CS
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9-11 The bean counters wet dream!!
I understand you can look back at 9-11 and say..' well it wasn't so bad' as a pilot around at the time ....it WAS!!!
You tell me the all the airlines returned to profit within 12 months but that was a rough 12 months for all
the AL cadets,
Gill air,
Swissair,
Crossair,
Sabena,
DAT,
aer littoral
National Jet Italy pilots
( sorry if I spelled you old company wrong !!!)
who either saw their contracts canceled or company's gone bust within that 12 months.
Also I know for a fact many of the companies which did survive cut salaries by up to 50 % and have never raised them to pre 9-11 levels.
For many pilots the new millennium was tough both professionally and personally with the market only recovering in the last two years to face another recession now again .... NIGHTMARE!!!
You tell me the all the airlines returned to profit within 12 months but that was a rough 12 months for all
the AL cadets,
Gill air,
Swissair,
Crossair,
Sabena,
DAT,
aer littoral
National Jet Italy pilots
( sorry if I spelled you old company wrong !!!)
who either saw their contracts canceled or company's gone bust within that 12 months.
Also I know for a fact many of the companies which did survive cut salaries by up to 50 % and have never raised them to pre 9-11 levels.
For many pilots the new millennium was tough both professionally and personally with the market only recovering in the last two years to face another recession now again .... NIGHTMARE!!!
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The point regarding Swissair and Sabena is hardly valid! Those airlines never made profit so they were always going to go the wall regardless of 9/11. Wasn't DAT absorbed into SN Brussels?
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Newton69 - Apologies you're right and in heinsight I could have worded that better.
For the Pilots and crew (but pilot's in particular)... I can only imagine how hard it must have been. I know a couple of guys that qualified just after 9-11 and both took the brunt of trying to get a job after. Not something I would ever wish on anyone.
As you say they were laying off Pilot's and cutting pay reasonably quickly but as a business that may have been necessary to save as many as possible if you know what I mean. I'm not saying it's right and given that, for the time being I am only a wannabee, I'll reserve judgement!
My main point being I was seriously shocked when I put together a summarised P&L for all UK major airlines from 2000 to 2005 and worked out for myself exactly how quickly it all bounced back. Just makes me feel for the Pilot's that went throught hat even more!
As for this recession, the volume of medica coverage that it is getting will be the final nail in the coffin, much like it was for Northen Rock! The more people tak about it the more likle yit will happen because the rest of the world will lose confidence in our economy and bugger off elsewhere with their investments.
Anyway, this is all off topic of the thread so apologies. But some valid points coming out none the less!
CS
For the Pilots and crew (but pilot's in particular)... I can only imagine how hard it must have been. I know a couple of guys that qualified just after 9-11 and both took the brunt of trying to get a job after. Not something I would ever wish on anyone.
As you say they were laying off Pilot's and cutting pay reasonably quickly but as a business that may have been necessary to save as many as possible if you know what I mean. I'm not saying it's right and given that, for the time being I am only a wannabee, I'll reserve judgement!
My main point being I was seriously shocked when I put together a summarised P&L for all UK major airlines from 2000 to 2005 and worked out for myself exactly how quickly it all bounced back. Just makes me feel for the Pilot's that went throught hat even more!
As for this recession, the volume of medica coverage that it is getting will be the final nail in the coffin, much like it was for Northen Rock! The more people tak about it the more likle yit will happen because the rest of the world will lose confidence in our economy and bugger off elsewhere with their investments.
Anyway, this is all off topic of the thread so apologies. But some valid points coming out none the less!
CS
