Astraeus
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Luke Sky Toddler, and others:
Every airline with a UK issued AOC will have to abide by the rules the CAA lay down. With good reason it is imperative that every airline has a good mix of experience.. especially in favour of experienced pilots. Thus, even if AEU wanted to employ a large amount of low houred guys (and I am sure as a quality outfit they would NOT wish to do so) the CAA would prohibit them from doing so. I believe FlyGlobespan are another carrier looking for 'experienced 737 rated crews' as they too have their fare share of cadets at present.
Not many people talk about the numbers of 737 SSTR cadets who find employment. From an Astraeus point of view, about half of my class have found employment.. and no doubt more will find jobs. Each class will be different of course.. with respect to my course guys have got jobs with Astraeus, FlyGlobespan and RyanAir. I believe in other courses people have found work with Air Asia, Sky Europe, Pegasus?, BMI Baby, JET 2 and even BA!
Therefore, just like in the FIC world.. you pay for a FIC course (albeit not as much as 737 Rating.. obviously
) and then you have to find work, not always guaranteed, despite many chaps I know having found at least seasonal work as instructors.
Buying a rating is a gamble.. just like paying for a CPL/Frozen ATPL, which lets be honest most of us have on this forum. Ignore the critics they are blatent sour hypocrites and believe it or not I actually have sympathy for them.. due to their bitter perception. If you do go down the rating route.. do buy hours on the line (some people have got jobs with no hours on type but they are few and far between). It took me 2.5 years to get my first airline (F/O) job.. which ever route you go down; SSTR, FIC or just waiting for that elusive interview.. wish you all the best of luck
747 Downwind
Every airline with a UK issued AOC will have to abide by the rules the CAA lay down. With good reason it is imperative that every airline has a good mix of experience.. especially in favour of experienced pilots. Thus, even if AEU wanted to employ a large amount of low houred guys (and I am sure as a quality outfit they would NOT wish to do so) the CAA would prohibit them from doing so. I believe FlyGlobespan are another carrier looking for 'experienced 737 rated crews' as they too have their fare share of cadets at present.
Not many people talk about the numbers of 737 SSTR cadets who find employment. From an Astraeus point of view, about half of my class have found employment.. and no doubt more will find jobs. Each class will be different of course.. with respect to my course guys have got jobs with Astraeus, FlyGlobespan and RyanAir. I believe in other courses people have found work with Air Asia, Sky Europe, Pegasus?, BMI Baby, JET 2 and even BA!
Therefore, just like in the FIC world.. you pay for a FIC course (albeit not as much as 737 Rating.. obviously
) and then you have to find work, not always guaranteed, despite many chaps I know having found at least seasonal work as instructors.Buying a rating is a gamble.. just like paying for a CPL/Frozen ATPL, which lets be honest most of us have on this forum. Ignore the critics they are blatent sour hypocrites and believe it or not I actually have sympathy for them.. due to their bitter perception. If you do go down the rating route.. do buy hours on the line (some people have got jobs with no hours on type but they are few and far between). It took me 2.5 years to get my first airline (F/O) job.. which ever route you go down; SSTR, FIC or just waiting for that elusive interview.. wish you all the best of luck
747 Downwind
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What 747D said.
Also, if all Astraeus's First Officers were TRTO students under training, all their captains would have to be at least Line Trainers, if not TRI/TREs. That gets expensive!
Scroggs
Also, if all Astraeus's First Officers were TRTO students under training, all their captains would have to be at least Line Trainers, if not TRI/TREs. That gets expensive!
Scroggs
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not sure if it would make any difference but bond aviation and Aeu are about to become complete seperate companies(on paper anyway).
I think it all boils down to demographics too much of one thing is a bad thing.
Presently on type rating course with Aeu, just about to start sim, not a sniff of this down there.
I'm lucky enough to have landed a f/o postion with a uK lowcow before completing type rating and interviewer commented on his need to employ experienced pilots (tt time wise) as a has a lot of guys looking at three to four years for a command
As a point of interest 3 of 5 students are foreign on my course and all on the previous course were also foreign, they seem to be reserved to the fact that type and line training is the only way for them to go, due to lack of opportunity in there home countries.
I think it all boils down to demographics too much of one thing is a bad thing.
Presently on type rating course with Aeu, just about to start sim, not a sniff of this down there.
I'm lucky enough to have landed a f/o postion with a uK lowcow before completing type rating and interviewer commented on his need to employ experienced pilots (tt time wise) as a has a lot of guys looking at three to four years for a command
As a point of interest 3 of 5 students are foreign on my course and all on the previous course were also foreign, they seem to be reserved to the fact that type and line training is the only way for them to go, due to lack of opportunity in there home countries.
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SJM
Would be interested to know how many people going through the Astraeus program are getting jobs from your perspective inside the program as you are clearly very qualified to comment?
Well done on getting the F/o position with a UK lo-co..... but is this the norm or is it a bit hit and miss as to who is landing a RHS in your experience?
I could get as frozen ATPL and a type-rating for £30k less than the cost of going integrated at Oxford (before the slagging and "oh no you can't" starts thats MY situation a I have been flying for fun for years and built up a load of hours already) and I am just interested on the success rate of this approach to getting a first job
Thanks for any feedback you can give
GSB
Would be interested to know how many people going through the Astraeus program are getting jobs from your perspective inside the program as you are clearly very qualified to comment?
Well done on getting the F/o position with a UK lo-co..... but is this the norm or is it a bit hit and miss as to who is landing a RHS in your experience?
I could get as frozen ATPL and a type-rating for £30k less than the cost of going integrated at Oxford (before the slagging and "oh no you can't" starts thats MY situation a I have been flying for fun for years and built up a load of hours already) and I am just interested on the success rate of this approach to getting a first job
Thanks for any feedback you can give
GSB
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Luke Sky Toddler, are you seriously advocating that Astraeus employ guys willing to buy a TR rather than pay pilots to do the job? Perhaps you'd like to reflect on that idea and it's impact on those who would like to be paid to do a job.
747 Downwind, I don't think bitter would quite accurately describe your critics. Yeah, I'm real bitter I didn't get the opportunity to pay up for a TR. Damn, why did I get it for free and get paid from day 1?
Being a pilot is about getting paid to do a job and the fact that Astraeus is now paying pilots to fly for them is a good step forward.
LST and 747 Driver, you will feel the same way when you decide you would rather get paid to fly rather pay to be there.
747 Downwind, I don't think bitter would quite accurately describe your critics. Yeah, I'm real bitter I didn't get the opportunity to pay up for a TR. Damn, why did I get it for free and get paid from day 1?
Being a pilot is about getting paid to do a job and the fact that Astraeus is now paying pilots to fly for them is a good step forward.
LST and 747 Driver, you will feel the same way when you decide you would rather get paid to fly rather pay to be there.
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ElNino:
In defense of Luke Sky Toddler.. I think he genuinely was unsure of why Astraeus were not employing all the cadets they (BOND) trained as F/Os.
quote: 'Being a pilot is about getting paid to do a job and the fact that Astraeus is now paying pilots to fly for them is a good step forward'
Are you suggesting that Astraeus didn't pay pilots to fly for them in the past. Lets get this right ElNino: BOND is a TRTO, they have now been bought out and are no longer part of Astraeus although the two companies will continue to work together closely. Astraeus is an airline, they pay pilots to fly for them. People like me self-fund ourselves, through BOND, and fly the line with Astraeus training captains. Then you either don't find a 737 job, get a job with another airline or get taken on by Astraeus (thus become no longer a part of BOND)
quote: 'LST and 747 Driver, you will feel the same way when you decide you would rather get paid to fly rather pay to be there'
When you refer to LST (I presume you mean Luke Sky Toddler).. I don't think he has stated that he is paying to fly or did I miss something? 747 Driver (I presume that's me), thanks to going through this scheme I am actually getting paid to fly now.. and no I don't feel the same way as you, I wish everybody could have jobs and if they have to pay to do it then so be it.
You imply that you are a critic by suggesting that you aren't bitter and that makes sense, but didn't you pay for your training.. Jerez, Oxford et al are expensive and even if you did get a full sponsorship cadets still get reduced salaries. We all pay some way or other.
The original post was answered by me and substantiated by Scroggs.. to what relevance does your post have in light of Luke Sky Toddler's initial question? I endeavour to give as much valuable advice to people on this forum so they can find their first airline job, just as I have been lucky to do so. This is what this particular forum is about.. if you don't believe me ask the moderators like Scroggs. This isn't about you or me, this is about the hundreds/ thousands? or unemployed wannabes out there. Now if you want to make some use of yourself, get off your moral high horse and start giving some advice to these wannabes about how you got a job flying the 146
In defense of Luke Sky Toddler.. I think he genuinely was unsure of why Astraeus were not employing all the cadets they (BOND) trained as F/Os.
quote: 'Being a pilot is about getting paid to do a job and the fact that Astraeus is now paying pilots to fly for them is a good step forward'
Are you suggesting that Astraeus didn't pay pilots to fly for them in the past. Lets get this right ElNino: BOND is a TRTO, they have now been bought out and are no longer part of Astraeus although the two companies will continue to work together closely. Astraeus is an airline, they pay pilots to fly for them. People like me self-fund ourselves, through BOND, and fly the line with Astraeus training captains. Then you either don't find a 737 job, get a job with another airline or get taken on by Astraeus (thus become no longer a part of BOND)
quote: 'LST and 747 Driver, you will feel the same way when you decide you would rather get paid to fly rather pay to be there'
When you refer to LST (I presume you mean Luke Sky Toddler).. I don't think he has stated that he is paying to fly or did I miss something? 747 Driver (I presume that's me), thanks to going through this scheme I am actually getting paid to fly now.. and no I don't feel the same way as you, I wish everybody could have jobs and if they have to pay to do it then so be it.
You imply that you are a critic by suggesting that you aren't bitter and that makes sense, but didn't you pay for your training.. Jerez, Oxford et al are expensive and even if you did get a full sponsorship cadets still get reduced salaries. We all pay some way or other.
The original post was answered by me and substantiated by Scroggs.. to what relevance does your post have in light of Luke Sky Toddler's initial question? I endeavour to give as much valuable advice to people on this forum so they can find their first airline job, just as I have been lucky to do so. This is what this particular forum is about.. if you don't believe me ask the moderators like Scroggs. This isn't about you or me, this is about the hundreds/ thousands? or unemployed wannabes out there. Now if you want to make some use of yourself, get off your moral high horse and start giving some advice to these wannabes about how you got a job flying the 146
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El Nino I think if you do a bit of research on my post history you will discover that I am already an airline captain on a perfectly good salary, who has a long history here on PPRUNE of being rather outspoken and indeed hostile, towards people who buy speculative type ratings / work for free.
I do have a certain fascination with Astraeus, in fact I blatantly admit I'd love to work for them, and if guaranteed, paid, permanent jet flying jobs were on offer after the SSTR scheme I'd be standing in the front of the queue. However they have never claimed that is the situation, in fact Hamrah has been at pains on occasion to point out that it's NOT the deal with their scheme, so fair play to them. I do have a couple of friends in the company who tell me it's a happy ship with very high standards generally, I also have a lot of respect for Hamrah specifically in that he's one of the most senior PPRUNErs and indeed one of the most senior and respected pilots in the country, who still has the time and patience to come on this forum repeatedly and explained things to a whole bunch of shrill wannabes (including myself on occasion ) who have been yapping at his heels and making ignorant statements about the SSTR program.
Question for scroggs and 747 D though, at what point does someone not need to fly with line trainers / TRI/TRE's, surely that has all come to an end after 50 hours or thereabouts? ... at which point the SSTR candidate is just as economically viable as any other type rated pilot? In fact more so, because you still will have to do an OPC and an abbreviated version of line training with an already-type-rated new joiner.
I can understand not wanting to keep an individual around if that person has only 300 hours total, and it's people with quick command upgrade potential that are needed. But even an experienced type-rated new joiner will still need a season with the company before they can be upgraded to the LHS? In which case, I still can't see that if you've got someone with a reasonable amount of total time, that it makes economic sense to send them away on completion of SSTR, only to advertise elsewhere for your type rated pilots?
I do have a certain fascination with Astraeus, in fact I blatantly admit I'd love to work for them, and if guaranteed, paid, permanent jet flying jobs were on offer after the SSTR scheme I'd be standing in the front of the queue. However they have never claimed that is the situation, in fact Hamrah has been at pains on occasion to point out that it's NOT the deal with their scheme, so fair play to them. I do have a couple of friends in the company who tell me it's a happy ship with very high standards generally, I also have a lot of respect for Hamrah specifically in that he's one of the most senior PPRUNErs and indeed one of the most senior and respected pilots in the country, who still has the time and patience to come on this forum repeatedly and explained things to a whole bunch of shrill wannabes (including myself on occasion
) who have been yapping at his heels and making ignorant statements about the SSTR program.Question for scroggs and 747 D though, at what point does someone not need to fly with line trainers / TRI/TRE's, surely that has all come to an end after 50 hours or thereabouts? ... at which point the SSTR candidate is just as economically viable as any other type rated pilot? In fact more so, because you still will have to do an OPC and an abbreviated version of line training with an already-type-rated new joiner.
I can understand not wanting to keep an individual around if that person has only 300 hours total, and it's people with quick command upgrade potential that are needed. But even an experienced type-rated new joiner will still need a season with the company before they can be upgraded to the LHS? In which case, I still can't see that if you've got someone with a reasonable amount of total time, that it makes economic sense to send them away on completion of SSTR, only to advertise elsewhere for your type rated pilots?
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LST,
I believe (and I standby to be corrected) that the JAR-OPS reccomendation which AEU follow is that to be line checked following the addition of your first type rating (over 20T I think), you should complete a minimum of 40 sectors OR 100 Hrs which ever is first. At least that was the requirement for myself and the other students adding the B737 as there first Type Rating having completed the Bond type rating.
Hence the reasson Bond offer the 100 Hr LT package which allows the student to complete his/her final line check and be cleared to line. A benefit when applying to prospective airlines and of course being considered by AEU should they require FO's for ad hoc or short term contracts upon completion of your training.
Regards
LOB
I believe (and I standby to be corrected) that the JAR-OPS reccomendation which AEU follow is that to be line checked following the addition of your first type rating (over 20T I think), you should complete a minimum of 40 sectors OR 100 Hrs which ever is first. At least that was the requirement for myself and the other students adding the B737 as there first Type Rating having completed the Bond type rating.
Hence the reasson Bond offer the 100 Hr LT package which allows the student to complete his/her final line check and be cleared to line. A benefit when applying to prospective airlines and of course being considered by AEU should they require FO's for ad hoc or short term contracts upon completion of your training.
Regards
LOB
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Basically, what lookoutbelow said. The TRI/TRE is no longer required after the initial four sectors, although of course you may fly with one as a training captain after the four sectors. Safety pilot release is at training captains descretion.. if at all
See what your saying about sending line checked SSTR students off after training LST, but again it is the CAA issue. Indeed, BOND 'endeavour' to get a mix on the courses so that experienced pilots (and by this I mean multi-crew experience.. even on a shed!) can join the airline with less contention from the CAA even though they have the same hours on type (737) as a low houred guy.. it's all about airline experience again, hope that may clear things up
747 Downwind
See what your saying about sending line checked SSTR students off after training LST, but again it is the CAA issue. Indeed, BOND 'endeavour' to get a mix on the courses so that experienced pilots (and by this I mean multi-crew experience.. even on a shed!) can join the airline with less contention from the CAA even though they have the same hours on type (737) as a low houred guy.. it's all about airline experience again, hope that may clear things up
747 Downwind
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747 Downwind... You exhibit a degree of ignorance with regards training, and in other areas...
Line training is not conducted by a TRI/TRE, it is a LTC who carries out his role. LTC = Line Training Captain.
A TRI or a TRE is a higher level qualification and although they are usually LTC qualified, they tend not to do much line training as they are required elsewhere.
You obviously intended that as a joke... but the ex Shedders on this forum will probably take umbridge at that comment... 
Line training is not conducted by a TRI/TRE, it is a LTC who carries out his role. LTC = Line Training Captain.
A TRI or a TRE is a higher level qualification and although they are usually LTC qualified, they tend not to do much line training as they are required elsewhere.
and by this I mean multi-crew experience.. even on a shed!
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I will say this once again meeb (for the benefit of the original post and this forum, and not for you), please read my post again and try not to jump the gun.. makes yourself look silly:
At Astraeus the first four line sectors are conducted with a TRI/TRE.. yes I am well aware that this is a higher qualified role, and yes they are all line training captains (if current) as well. After the initial four sectors are completed (and to the satisfaction of the TRI/TRE) then the remainder of the 'line training' is completed with a Line Training Captain. After passing the line check you are then cleared to operate with any line captain (whether it be TRI, TRI/TRE, LTC, Line Captain etc) blah blah blah this is boring me.
I am only stating what happens at AEU.. seen as I have no evidence that the four sectors with a TRI/TRE is a CAA mandatory requirement, I can not speak for other airlines (I just don't have the knowledge or experience). Therefore, I can not see how I exhibited a degree of ignorance regarding training. As opposed to ignorance in other areas.. well I am human, and instead of sitting there like a pompous fool, correct me if I am misinformed.. take a look at Scroggs and monitor his posts. He corrects people whilst maintaining a degree of respect. This forum is about helping and teaching people. And yes you are right about the amount of limited line flying SOME TRI/TREs.. they do speak to me you know, just like all the other guys!
With respect to the 'shed'.. Shorts 360, it is always going to get jokes (just like a Skoda.. doesn't mean they are bad cars nor are Shorts 360's particularly bad aircraft), it's a joke mate, chill out.
Now if I still stench of ignorance then please feel free to publicly correct me.. the initial aim of this thread was regarding AEU recruitment.
If anyone wants any info on the success rates of students in employment I would be more than willing to offer that, or indeed other schemes that my friends have gone through (CTC, instructing etc). Keep well and good luck with the job hunting
747 Downwind
At Astraeus the first four line sectors are conducted with a TRI/TRE.. yes I am well aware that this is a higher qualified role, and yes they are all line training captains (if current) as well. After the initial four sectors are completed (and to the satisfaction of the TRI/TRE) then the remainder of the 'line training' is completed with a Line Training Captain. After passing the line check you are then cleared to operate with any line captain (whether it be TRI, TRI/TRE, LTC, Line Captain etc) blah blah blah this is boring me.
I am only stating what happens at AEU.. seen as I have no evidence that the four sectors with a TRI/TRE is a CAA mandatory requirement, I can not speak for other airlines (I just don't have the knowledge or experience). Therefore, I can not see how I exhibited a degree of ignorance regarding training. As opposed to ignorance in other areas.. well I am human, and instead of sitting there like a pompous fool, correct me if I am misinformed.. take a look at Scroggs and monitor his posts. He corrects people whilst maintaining a degree of respect. This forum is about helping and teaching people. And yes you are right about the amount of limited line flying SOME TRI/TREs.. they do speak to me you know, just like all the other guys!
With respect to the 'shed'.. Shorts 360, it is always going to get jokes (just like a Skoda.. doesn't mean they are bad cars nor are Shorts 360's particularly bad aircraft), it's a joke mate, chill out.
Now if I still stench of ignorance then please feel free to publicly correct me.. the initial aim of this thread was regarding AEU recruitment.
If anyone wants any info on the success rates of students in employment I would be more than willing to offer that, or indeed other schemes that my friends have gone through (CTC, instructing etc). Keep well and good luck with the job hunting
747 Downwind
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Another Thread going around in circles!
Surely the reason AEU want experienced FO's is to preserve a healthy mix within the company, take the pressure of the LTC's, make life easier for the rostering dept, provide a benchmark for upgrade candidates and give ordinary line Captains a proven product to work with.
We all know the experience thing is not only limited to the a/c handling but also interaction and exposure to the whole work environment.
The fact that the company advertises externally is no reflection on the quality of internally trained candidates, many of whom have job external job offers subject to completing their 100hrs.
Even though larger outfits like FR may appear to be hoovering up all the low hours guys, within the company as a whole the balance is in favour of experience, with average fleet time probably nearer 800hrs per FO on type.
One also has to take on board that a lot of the Bond guys do not do 100hrs, which means they may tie up and experienced pilot to act as "safety" for all 10 sectors, this in it's self creates an internal shortage especially when you look at the types of route and destinations the company operates.
From the outside looking in.. I would say AEU operate one of the fairest employment schemes of any airline, long may they continue!!!!
Surely the reason AEU want experienced FO's is to preserve a healthy mix within the company, take the pressure of the LTC's, make life easier for the rostering dept, provide a benchmark for upgrade candidates and give ordinary line Captains a proven product to work with.
We all know the experience thing is not only limited to the a/c handling but also interaction and exposure to the whole work environment.
The fact that the company advertises externally is no reflection on the quality of internally trained candidates, many of whom have job external job offers subject to completing their 100hrs.
Even though larger outfits like FR may appear to be hoovering up all the low hours guys, within the company as a whole the balance is in favour of experience, with average fleet time probably nearer 800hrs per FO on type.
One also has to take on board that a lot of the Bond guys do not do 100hrs, which means they may tie up and experienced pilot to act as "safety" for all 10 sectors, this in it's self creates an internal shortage especially when you look at the types of route and destinations the company operates.
From the outside looking in.. I would say AEU operate one of the fairest employment schemes of any airline, long may they continue!!!!
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GSB in answer to your question, I really couldnt tell you, as to how many getting jobs.
Fact: 3 out of 5 on my course doing 100 hrs
1 of 2 has job(me).
Be under no illusions that this was a massive gamble for me.
I will try to give a run down of my thought process.
1. I had paid less than a oxford candidate and with type rating would be about the same mark.
2. I networked for a year before commiting to TR, on phones with companies and a friend in my new soon to be comopany,
3. I have 2500+ hrs, not just min, so some experience all s/e time
4. I am looking at two years to command(all things considered etc..) as a result of #3. More attractive to airline, in my opinion.
I really would not like to advice any one to do or not do a TR I had enough trouble deciding for myself.
One thing I would say is get the facts dont pay until you have to and get it all in writting.
Good luck in whatever you decide
regards
Fact: 3 out of 5 on my course doing 100 hrs
1 of 2 has job(me).
Be under no illusions that this was a massive gamble for me.
I will try to give a run down of my thought process.
1. I had paid less than a oxford candidate and with type rating would be about the same mark.
2. I networked for a year before commiting to TR, on phones with companies and a friend in my new soon to be comopany,
3. I have 2500+ hrs, not just min, so some experience all s/e time
4. I am looking at two years to command(all things considered etc..) as a result of #3. More attractive to airline, in my opinion.
I really would not like to advice any one to do or not do a TR I had enough trouble deciding for myself.
One thing I would say is get the facts dont pay until you have to and get it all in writting.
Good luck in whatever you decide
regards
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Type Rating with Astraeus
Greetings All
I'm considering the purchase of a B737 type rating with Bond Aviation/ Astraeus. I would like to hear from anyone who has completed the course and has any comments on the matter. Also, how helpful are the line training packages in securing employment??
Cheers guys but I've heard the whole debate on type ratings, so lets keep it constructive.
Thanks everyone and good luck
VMD
I'm considering the purchase of a B737 type rating with Bond Aviation/ Astraeus. I would like to hear from anyone who has completed the course and has any comments on the matter. Also, how helpful are the line training packages in securing employment??
Cheers guys but I've heard the whole debate on type ratings, so lets keep it constructive.
Thanks everyone and good luck
VMD
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Re: Type Rating with Astraeus
My best advice is go and speak to them, see what they are all about. If you are serious, then participate in one of their assessment days. I would also try and speak with people who have done the TR scheme with Bond/Astraeus.
(Go online to the Astraues website and speak to a lady called Sue Mason, she is at Bond Aviation and shoulsd tell you everything you need to know)
(Go online to the Astraues website and speak to a lady called Sue Mason, she is at Bond Aviation and shoulsd tell you everything you need to know)